[bombadil]

I think Apple needs to update their hardware sooner than later. I'm just getting into video editing and without getting into the specifics of my reasons I just chose dual-core Pentium D PC system from Dell over getting a Power Mac. All other things aside, I would have gone with a PM if they offered PCI-Express and Quad cores (or perhaps some other processing advantage over PC's). Now that cheap dual-core systems have officially arrived for PC's I think a lot of people will be making the same decision I made, at least until Apple updates the PM line. I understand Apple will always have sales based on their unique software alone, but from a hardware perspective not having more to offer I think is going to cost them. I'll probably someday also pick up a Mac but it won't be the current systems at the current prices.

[Maflynn]

While I agree that the hardware needs a bit of updating, i.e., PCI-E all in all you need to look at the total package too. For ease of use, security and stability OSX has this hands down. I don't need to worry about spyware, viruses and adware polluting my computer. Additionally I can work the way I need to.

Needless to say you may get flamed for the post especially since this was your first post. Since its your money you have every right to buy what you want. I think in the long run the Mac is a better long term investment.

Mike

[zwiebel_]

... PC system from Dell...

Hm, not to flame, but does it run OSX, FinalCut, or DVDSP?

[Lateralus]

Indeed.

Proper software has as much with productivity as hardware does.

Anyways, I doubt you're going to get much backing here for your decision to go with a Dell. The decision you made to go with a PC is at least debatable, but there are many hardware assemblers out there more reputable than Dell. Rolling your own would have probably yielded you a better system as well.

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by bombadil

Now that cheap dual-core systems have officially arrived for PC's I think a lot of people will be making the same decision I made, at least until Apple updates the PM line.

I didn't realize the centrino line was dual core already. Those are the cheapest Intel processors out there, right?

Anyways its not about the hardware as much as it's about the software. Apple makes superior video editing software and a superior OS, so I think Apple still has an advantage. And with this review I don't see how Apple can be considered so far behind.

[GSixZero]

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/a...jsp?id=32620-1

Here's an interesting article a friend sent me the other day. They compare a Dell Precision Workstation 470 Dual Intel Xeon 3.6, 2GB DDR2 RAM ($4639) and a Apple Mac G5, Dual 2.7GHz, 4GB DDR 400 SD RAM ($4598), and find that the performance is very similar in After Effects.

For less money you get twice as much ram plus OS X.

Even more significant is the fact that the price of this test Mac is unusually high, because Apple chose to include 4 GB of RAM, and added numerous other extras to the mix. With a comparable 2GB of RAM and without any extras, this machine would cost $1300 less than the current price of our Dell dual Xeon 3.6GHz PC that we used for comparison. As configured, for forty bucks less you get speed that’s statistically just about the same as a PC, Bluetooth connectivity, FireWire 800 on the motherboard , and then there’s that striking industrial design and cachet that only goes with owning a Mac.

[bombadil]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

While I agree that the hardware needs a bit of updating, i.e., PCI-E
Mike

You seem to agree with my point.

Originally Posted by Maflynn

Needless to say you may get flamed for the post especially since this was your first post. Since its your money you have every right to buy what you want. I think in the long run the Mac is a better long term investment.
Mike

Perhaps they are a better investment. Whether I'm right or wrong for my choice wasn't meant to be the focus of my post but rather that Power Macs could use an update for the reason that people like myself who 6 months ago would have gone with a Mac are now choosing the PC. My choice may be wrong, I don't care to debate it.

Originally Posted by Lateralus

Indeed.
Anyways, I doubt you're going to get much backing here for your decision to go with a Dell. The decision you made to go with a PC is at least debatable, but there are many hardware assemblers out there more reputable than Dell. Rolling your own would have probably yielded you a better system as well.

You misunderstand the point of my post, I'm not looking for people here to back my decision. I have left my reasons for my choice COMPLETELY out of this but to say that IF current PM's would have contained the two mentioned updates that would have been enough to change my decision. As far as going with a Dell they are currently the only ones offering Pentium D systems. However the real reason I went with a Dell because i LOVE their cases, something that is very important to me. As far as other assemblers being more reputable, I have no doubt that I will get my system for what I paid for it and don't expect to have any hardware failures. I have found Dell to offer solid systems at a good value, my complaints with them are that they are a massive evil corporation (just like Apple ) and that they don't offer AMD. I will be adding my own 10,000 rpm boot drive, ram, sound card, and gfx card to this system. I'm quite happy with the case, the motherboard, the cpu, and the price. If the day comes where I need to I can replace the powersupply, but I don't plan to have to.

[bombadil]

Originally Posted by gururafiki

I didn't realize the centrino line was dual core already. Those are the cheapest Intel processors out there, right?

Anyways its not about the hardware as much as it's about the software. Apple makes superior video editing software and a superior OS, so I think Apple still has an advantage. And with this review I don't see how Apple can be considered so far behind.

They are not behind in processing power, however they could use PCI-E. I'm not sure how ddr2-667 is going to perform yet, but not even AMD has that.

[bombadil]

Originally Posted by GSixZero

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/a...jsp?id=32620-1

Here's an interesting article a friend sent me the other day. They compare a Dell Precision Workstation 470 Dual Intel Xeon 3.6, 2GB DDR2 RAM ($4639) and a Apple Mac G5, Dual 2.7GHz, 4GB DDR 400 SD RAM ($4598), and find that the performance is very similar in After Effects.

For less money you get twice as much ram plus OS X.

The Dell Precision Workstation 470 is over priced, I wouldn't consider it for my own uses with the Dimension 9100 being available. For that matter, I would agree with chosing a PM over it.

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by bombadil

They are not behind in processing power, however they could use PCI-E. I'm not sure how ddr2-667 is going to perform yet, but not even AMD has that.

OK, but I am not sure that many people will use that as their deciding factor on whether they will buy a PC or Mac.

[rondocap]

I am in the same position. I am days from either purchasing a 2.7 G5, or a dual core system from Dell.

I want a G5, but the Dell really makes it hard. For the same price as I would pay for the G5, I can get 2gigs of ram in the Dell instead of 1gig in the g5, not to mention two 10k raptors and 667mhz DDR2 ram, and a 20 inch Ultrasharp LCD.

If Apple offered a little more on the hardware side, it would be an easier decision. I might still go with the G5 though, even though the Dell is tempting.

[ViviMaster]

the computers are so close its not even really worth comparing. for nearly the same price you get just about the same performance. mac os would definatly be the way to go unless you like constantly running spyware and ad ware stuff in the back round which i doubt most people like, everyday macs are becoming more popular and mroe and more stuff being released for them. mac is a definate good choice to go with!

[Scotttheking]

Originally Posted by gururafiki

I didn't realize the centrino line was dual core already. Those are the cheapest Intel processors out there, right?

Centrino is Intel's laptop platform, not a CPU.

[rondocap]

ViviMaster, that is true, they are very close. I don't know if there is much of a real world difference between things like PC3200 memory and PC5400, so the main differences should be software wise and price if both will perform close to the top. The price is where I am debating now. It is not that I don't want to spend a lot, my budget is over $3,000 for the system alone- it is just that i want to get the best value and quality for my money. Value is obviously Dell, and quality is a toss up. (Some would say Apple, but I have 2 other Dell's in my household and they have not given me any problems.)

I am close to the 2.7 G5 though, the little things are making a big difference as the time to purchase comes closer. Soon!

[zwiebel_]

The price is where I am debating now.

Just remember to include the price and subscription fees of software tools needed to run the computer relatively safe.
On top of that, as I mentioned earlier, does it have anything comparable to OSX, FC, & DVDSPro?

[rondocap]

zwiebel:

I have been using Windows XP ever since it came out, and I have barely had any trouble or viruses/spyware. Most of the "virus free" talk for the mac is geared towards more novice users, but if one is careful, Windows XP is a safe and mostly stable OS. I do want to experience the Tiger OS though, to see if the hype is true.

I will be using the G5 mainly for music, Finale for one. The software is more or less equal for what I am looking at, so I can't base my decision on this factor alone.

[discotronic]

Originally Posted by rondocap

Value is obviously Dell, and quality is a toss up.

Apple has the better quality without a doubt. I am an IT Admin. with approx. 300 Dell computers in 8 offices on the east coast. Not a week goes by that I don't have a problem with one or more of them. We are not talking the cheapest of the cheap 2400 series. These are the OptiPlex GX280 series. While they are not gaming machines they are great workstations but they are still cheap crap. At almost $2000 a system a person would think the quality would be much better.

If Dell has more value I can't see it. You should also factor in resell value. I have a Blueberry iBook 300MHz from 1999. I know for a fact that I can still pull $300 or more out of it. Show me a Dell laptop from 1999 that the same can be said for.

I won't even get started on the Spyware/Adware and virus arguement. I will say that the problem doesn't just happen with novice computer users. It happens to everyone with a Windows machine at one point or another.

[ReggieX]

Gosh, a brand new member is a Windows troll? HOW ORIGINAL.

[hmurchison2001]

In the case of video editing I think many people are going to choose the application they wish to run and then decide on the best platform to run that app.

Then you have to decide on what formats you will run. If it's DV then you're unlikely to need anything beyond PCI-X for expansion and the more popular solutions are Firewire. If its HDV you still don't need much internal expansion.

I know Blackmagic now has a PCI-Express card and I see PCI-Express as becoming more popular for video products but I was also surprised to see that with an adapter you can run the Blackmagic card in the current PCI-X Powermacs so you aren't fully shut out.

Dell is going to kick Apple's arse in pricing. The PC market is competitive and margins are razor thin. Apple gets to loaf and have uneven product cycles because they have no one nipping at their heels. It's a bit unfortunate I do wish they would get their butts in gear and evolve the Powermacs a bit quicker but if I had to do video today I would say that even a dual 2.3Ghz is going to function very well for most needs.

[sodamnregistered2]

...

[bombadil]

Originally Posted by ReggieX

Gosh, a brand new member is a Windows troll? HOW ORIGINAL.

Thanks for chiming in. I'm sorry my post wasn't "pro apple", in fact.. I apologize for mentioning PC's even exist

I posted my opinion because I want Apple to do well and don't like one thing in particular that I'm seeing. Mac buyers pay a premium and they deserve a premium. This is what they got a year ago, and this is probably what they will get again with the next PM upgrade. I feel the upgrade is overdue and this is me voicing that opinion. For Mac only users now may be a great time to buy, you get more for your money than ever before. My concern is for people like myself who don't have preferred software and so consider the PC.. again 6 months ago I believe for my needs I would have gone with a Mac and had a better upgrade come by now I probably still would have. I'll probably still be buying a PM in the semi near future but I may not be typical in that regard.

[PoisonTooth]

Well, I can tell you that I just took delivery of a dual G5 2.7, and it's the finest computer I've ever owned. It's blazing -- and I mean BLAZING -- fast, built with incredible attention to detail, and quiet. When you buy an Apple, you buy the complete package, for better or worse. For me, it's been nothing but benefit.

Oh, one more thing. I sold a Boxx Opteron workstation for the G5. Windows was OK for me -- I never really had any significant issues -- but it gummed up over time and the video/photo apps just aren't as good. Neither is the OS, IMHO.

My two pennies.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by bombadil

The Dell Precision Workstation 470 is over priced, I wouldn't consider it for my own uses with the Dimension 9100 being available. For that matter, I would agree with chosing a PM over it.

I don't think you've ever used a workstation then ...

So how much did you spend in total on hardware + hardware upgrades + software?

[Superchicken]

I hope the money you saved will keep you warm at night when you miss OS X

You couldn't pay me go use a PC instead of my PowerBook. It's only a 1Ghz G4 but if you gave me it or a top of the line Dell or HP I'd still pick it.

[ViviMaster]

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001

Dell is going to kick Apple's arse in pricing. The PC market is competitive and margins are razor thin. Apple gets to loaf and have uneven product cycles because they have no one nipping at their heels. It's a bit unfortunate I do wish they would get their butts in gear and evolve the Powermacs a bit quicker but if I had to do video today I would say that even a dual 2.3Ghz is going to function very well for most needs.

apples are prices are right on. sure they may be a bit expensive. but build a pc with the same specs and it will cost you just as much. thats where people this that macs are just so expensive for no reason. all the pcs that are close runing to the g5s cost the same if not more. if your poor like me you just upgrade an older g4 which is starting to become cheaper and this thing does more than anything i will need it to and them some

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by bombadil

I think Apple needs to update their hardware sooner than later.

I think Microsoft needs to update Windows sooner that later.

[misnomer]

Originally Posted by ViviMaster

apples are prices are right on. sure they may be a bit expensive. but build a pc with the same specs and it will cost you just as much.

And how do you go about doing the reverse to have the same specs on the PowerMac? Like 3Gb/s SATA2, Dual Channel DDR2, PCIe or integrated 7.1 Channel 192kHz/32-bit audio.

And all these posts about the prices basically being the same, is everyone looking at the right model? The dual core 9100s currently start at just over $1K...

I'm really hoping WWDC brings with it PCIe 970MP dualcore PowerMacs and the announcing of some sort of ETA on a fully 64-bit OSX would be nice too. The buzz around the 64-bit GUI versions of XSI, Max, Lightwave and C4D has been very positive... Apple is missing out on an opportunity to get in on it and pimp the G5, at least for the latter two apps.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by misnomer

And how do you go about doing the reverse to have the same specs on the PowerMac? Like 3Gb/s SATA2, Dual Channel DDR2, PCIe or integrated 7.1 Channel 192kHz/32-bit audio.

And all these posts about the prices basically being the same, is everyone looking at the right model? The dual core 9100s currently start at just over $1K...

I'm really hoping WWDC brings with it PCIe 970MP dualcore PowerMacs and the announcing of some sort of ETA on a fully 64-bit OSX would be nice too. The buzz around the 64-bit GUI versions of XSI, Max, Lightwave and C4D has been very positive... Apple is missing out on an opportunity to get in on it and pimp the G5, at least for the latter two apps.

I think you should rather compare the G5s to entry-level workstations.

[rm199]

What is wrong with using the dimension 9100 for comparison? Seems appropriate to me, as would a comparison with the precision 380. It is hard to make a strong case that the powermac is a 'workstation' beyond the marketing and besides, that moniker is a bit dated these days and not as applicable as it used to be.

[OreoCookie]

The thing is that very often you can't distinguish a workstation by its specs alone. Very often, workstations would use not necessarily cutting-edge technologies, such as slower RAM, but offer high-bandwidth expansion. One-lane PCIe slots are contrary to popular belief not faster than PCI-X, so I don't think PCIe is a must for expansion cards in the pro sector.

A workstation also has sturdier cases (lift an old AlphaStation, even the smalles desktop model: you'll be surprised ).

And you could also ask the same question to Dell alone: why is the comparable workstation config as expensive as a Mac (I added a dual core cpu, because all other configs would have been single), but shares a lot of features with the 9100?

[rm199]

PCI-X doesn't make a workstation and neither does a heavy, well made case.

As a prosumer desktop computer, the powermac's demographic is far more general than that of a real workstation with a very specific niche focus. PCI-X was a good call at the time and it remains a good one now (cards actually exist...) but that doesn't render PCIe unimportant. It will become the defacto standard in the PC world which is of course the reason all the lovely new cards will be released in that format and not PCI-X. It seems that it would be wise for Apple to embrace it.

When the Ultra 1 was brand new I lifted one of those to my office, does that count as a heavy workstation? Yes I know the flimsy plastic top used to almost break off when moving it on the desk but it could still support that desk busting 24inch CRT on top of it...

[Todd Madson]

I've actually worked on one of those Dell Precision dual Xeon boxes at my workplace - I wasn't
aware we had one but the graphic artist in one of our locations had one (she got to pick what
she wanted since her old machine was "too slow"). Thing has 1 GB ram, and three Maxtor 160
GB drives in a raid array. Beefy. I will say this: the machine had blue screened and needed
XP Pro repaired. It failed the repair. After reinstalling XP, it made my head swim. I've never
seen a Windows machine install XP faster. It wasn't as nice as OS X on a high end G5 but if
you needed to use an Intel based machine that would be the one to have. I still can't believe
how fast it reinstalled XP. Biggest pain: reconstructing it the way it was prior to blue screening.
Ugh.