[CIA]

Well, my CTO Quad with 7800 has shipped, and today I ordered 4GB of memory for it. Already sitting here with me are 2 new 74GB Raptor 10k SATA drives waiting to be installed.
So.... Help me pimp my Mac!
Here is what I want, I'm just unfamilier with PCI-E cards for the mac, (what few are available that is).
Data Drives:
250GB stock drive internal
250GB firewire 400 external
A whole smackering of different sized external firewire 400 drives. From what I hear the FW800 performance has STILL not been fixed on these new G5's, so I will shy away from that, which is a shame, as FW800 would be a lot cheaper and solve all my problems. Anyway....

Now here things get tricky. I would like to stripe the 2 Raptors together into a 140GB (approx. size) RAID 0, using a PCI-E card. I would like a RAID hardware card, or can use OSX built in RAID feature. Does OSX Drive Utility RAID offer a RAID 5 option? (more on this later) This would be my boot and apps drive. I plan on adding a 160GB drive above the factory drive as a second internal just to act as a mirror of the 2 Raptors incase things go sour. Dunno if I will partition the 160 to the right size to re-claim the space that the 2 raptors leave behind, but thats not a big issue. What is the issue is where to put the raptors.
I know I can get a bracket from several vendors and put them down by the processor fans, but I don't really want to muck the case up trying to route power cables and SATA cables down there, and also the heat from 2 10K drives in front of the processors concerns me. Tempted to see if I can fit one in the PCI zone, and another in the processor zone, but still, not to psyched on the idea.
So. External SATA.
Here is what I have been looking at. Does anyone know if there is a external SATA card available for us Apple users on PCI-E?
Now I don't know if I would buy from these people, but they have some interesting products for my research on this.... First, the case.
I was looking at something like this Which seems nice, (albiet pricey) but I don't know if there are any external PCIe cards on the mac yet that have eSATA connectors.
So I could get a Highpoint controller and run the RAID off that, and then just find a normal multi-bay external case. Maybe pipe the cables outside using something like this or this. I see the highpoint controller can do RAID 5 which would do away with my need for the 160 Data drive that I was going to use to mirror the striped set. That would mean I would need a 3rd Raptor, but my overall storage, (and in theory, drive performance) would increase so thats always good. Too bad the external adaptors I listed above are only 2 port models. There are plenty of different cable options to go along with these.
So what are my best options for hooking this up? I want the best performance, but data integrity as well. I don't mind ordering a 3rd Raptor to make a RAID 5, but that still leaves me with the problem of where to put the drives. I know with some Y adapters I could power all these drives internally using the DVD-RW power. How many 10k drives can I run (using Y adapters) off the single power plug provided for the DVD-RW? At what point will power draw become an issue?
The G5 Drive Bracket, looks pretty good (I like that it's made in the USA) and might not be that bad to hook it all up, but then I have some serious concerns about heat, especially if I was running 3 Raptors. I would be less worried if it was 2 drives and the mirror drive running in the other bay above the stock drive....

So what would you do? Any tips? Any products coming out soon that I should be aware of before I buy anything else?
Thanks for your help in advance....

[CanadaRAM]

You're a little to early for the PCIe cards to be mature yet. Give it another 3 months.

Check out Firmtek who have 2 and 4 port external SATA swappable enclosures. I would be hesitant to build up the machine internally with >2 drives, or to daisychain drives off the DVD power.

[CIA]

Man, this 2 bay option would work, seems pricey compared to firewire/USB options. Seems like there aren't any cheap options yet for this... I like this one but don't know if heat would be an issue with the raptors. It would match the G5 look tho.
Maybe just two cheap solo external SATA cases next to each other would work, like this or this... I guess heat is my main concern, but the drives do have a 5 year warrenty, and I will have them backed up. Or if I go the RAID-5 route my data will at least be somewhat secure... All my critical data is backed up anyway, so beyond the pain in the ass act of re-formatting and installing everything it's not the end of the world if the RAID goes down. I just want speed!^^
I still would need to figure out how to route the cables outside the case tho.

[B Gallagher]

[mduell]

That Highpoint controller does not have an onboard processor (for RAID5 XORs), so even if you buy it you're still doing software RAID (that's also why the price is <$300, instead of >$400 like the real hardware RAID cards).

RAID5 across 3 drives is slower than RAID0 across 2. Espically with software RAID.

eSATA is nice if you have long external cable runs, but it means more expensive and limited choices compared to "plain old" SATA externally. Kingwin has some nice stackable external SATA enclosures (I have one for my laptop).

I'd put the two Raptors inside, run software RAID0 across them (or hardware if you're willing to shell out the money for a real hardware RAID card), and have the rest of your SATA drives in external enclosures. Make manual or automated (cron script or similar) copies from the internal array to an external drive for backup at regular intervals. RAID is not a backup (if you delete a file from one disk, it's gone).

[CIA]

Cut and past from the highpoint page I linked to:
"The HighPoint RocketRAID 2320 Controller offers 8 internal ports that combine high-performance storage connectivity of Serial ATA with HighPoint's advanced RAID features, including, Online Capacity Expansion, Online RAID Level Migration (OCE/ORLM) and HighPoint's RAID Management software.

The RocketRAID 2320 supports advanced RAID levels 0, 1, 5, 10, and JBOD for maximum configuration flexibility. HighPoint offers the broadest range of support for all major operating systems to ensure OS and hardware server compatibility."

Seems to me it's a RAID card, It just doesn't have any external ports.
RAID 5 seems to offer data security, and based on the reviews I've read, it's not that much slower then a RAID 0, and is still really fast when compared to stand alone disks. I don't mind a RAID 0 w/ scheduled backup. But I think a 3 disk RAID 5 would be as fast as a 2 disk RAID 0.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by CIA

Cut and past from the highpoint page I linked to:
"The HighPoint RocketRAID 2320 Controller offers 8 internal ports that combine high-performance storage connectivity of Serial ATA with HighPoint's advanced RAID features, including, Online Capacity Expansion, Online RAID Level Migration (OCE/ORLM) and HighPoint's RAID Management software.

The RocketRAID 2320 supports advanced RAID levels 0, 1, 5, 10, and JBOD for maximum configuration flexibility. HighPoint offers the broadest range of support for all major operating systems to ensure OS and hardware server compatibility."

Seems to me it's a RAID card, It just doesn't have any external ports.
RAID 5 seems to offer data security, and based on the reviews I've read, it's not that much slower then a RAID 0, and is still really fast when compared to stand alone disks. I don't mind a RAID 0 w/ scheduled backup. But I think a 3 disk RAID 5 would be as fast as a 2 disk RAID 0.

That link and quote say nothing about hardware RAID. "Real" hardware RAID cards include a chip onboard to do the XORs for RAID5 (popular chips are the Intel IOP331/332 [found in the Xserve RAID, among others] and PowerPC 750). Look at 3ware or LSI Logic for a hardware RAID card.
edit: Scratch 3ware, they only support Windows/Linux/FreeBSD.
edit2: Scratch LSI Logic too, they only support Windows/DOS/Linux/FreeBSD/Unixware/Netware. Does anyone make a Mac compatible hardware RAID card?!?

RAID5 offers data recoverability in the event of a single drive loss. If you delete a file, it's gone. If your RAID controller goes nuts, your data is hosed (I mention that becuase I've seen it happen). RAID does not offer any security, nor is it a backup.

Doing RAID0 and/or 1 in software is no big deal because there is no math involved. RAID5 (or any of the other RAID levels with parity) is a different beast. RAID5, espically when done in software, is usually no faster than a single disk.

[CIA]

First to settle it once and for all, if I don't go the RAID 5 route, then I would have a sched. backup to the 160GB drive on the internal G5 SATA bus. Through OSX RAID utility, or just a script and Carbon Copy cloner. I'm not concerned about single files that get deleted, that's my fault if it happens. I'm concerned with drive failure/whole shabang lost situation. I think my backup options have that covered.
Second, I do have a PCI Hardware Raid card in my current G4, Acard 6880M, with a hardware jumper switch to set it to RAID 0, RAID 1, or just operate as a normal ATA133 card (which it's currently set to) Too bad it won't work in my Quad, that card has been solid in whatever mode I put it in over the years.
I want to boot off the RAID in the quad, and I can't do that with the software RAID util in OSX. So I figured I would RAID up the raptors and run them off the highpoint card, in a hardware RAID. Everything seems to say that the highpoint card is a hardware raid, it's all over the info for it, configure via browser, or from CLI. But you are right that beised being called RocketRAID" it doesn't mention hardware RAID specifically. I guess I will find out when it gets here as I did order it this morning. ($259 from Newegg). If it turns out I paid extra for the "RAID" card only to find out the extra money is for software bundled to create a RAID then I will return it and wait for a true hardware RAID 0 or 5 that I can boot from. I waited this long for a quad to come out, I guess I can wait a little longer for some more PCIe cards. I'd love a PCIe Firewire 800/400/USB2 combo card, I hate dealing with hubs.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by CIA

I want to boot off the RAID in the quad, and I can't do that with the software RAID util in OSX.

Actually, you can. This is probably one of OSX's neatest tricks. Although it's not much faster than a single drive.

So I figured I would RAID up the raptors and run them off the highpoint card, in a hardware RAID. Everything seems to say that the highpoint card is a hardware raid, it's all over the info for it, configure via browser, or from CLI. But you are right that beised being called RocketRAID" it doesn't mention hardware RAID specifically. I guess I will find out when it gets here as I did order it this morning. ($259 from Newegg). If it turns out I paid extra for the "RAID" card only to find out the extra money is for software bundled to create a RAID then I will return it and wait for a true hardware RAID 0 or 5 that I can boot from. I waited this long for a quad to come out, I guess I can wait a little longer for some more PCIe cards.

Highpoint and Promise have been selling cheap (<$400) hardware RAID cards for years. All of the RAID5 math is done in software. RAID0 doesn't require any math and my finally be done in hardware, although the HighPoint site says nothing to indicate that.

[CIA]

Sometimes the world is creepy. As I was reading your latest post my mail client dinged with the response to the email I sent Highpoint. I cut and pasted it below, it settles the hardware RAID argument, but it seems the card will not work for me as you can not boot from it. My question is listed first, and the response second.
----------------------------------
Question:
----------------------------------
To: sales@highpoint-tech.com
From: XXXXXXXXXXXX@mac.com
Subject: Question about RocketRAID 2320
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:23:01 -0500
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2)

Hi, quick question about the PCIe based RocketRAID 2320. It it a
Hardware based RAID, or are the RAID functions all done in software?
I currently have a Acard 6880M Hardware RAID PCI card, which has
jumpers on the card itself to tell it to run in RAID 1, RAID 0, or
normal ATA card mode. Is the rocketRAID similar to this? I ask
because I just purchased a new Powermac G5 Quad and want to boot of a
RAID 0 (or RAID 5) using your card. My RAID will consist of 2x
Western Digital Raptor SATA drives, or if I go the RAID 5 route, 3x
Raptors.
Thanks for your help in advance!


-----------------------------------------
Response:
-----------------------------------------
Hello,

It is a hardware RAID card.
A software interface is provided to create and manage arrays.
It does not utilize jumper settings in this manner (most current cards do not).

However, Mac systems do not recognize our cards as boot devices (at least not at the present).

Regards,

Corey Baker
HighPoint Technologies, Inc.

[mduell]

Highpoint has always called their cheap RAID cards "hardware RAID" despite doing so much in the driver. The latest generation may be doing RAID0 and 1 in hardware, but without an onboard CPU it will have to offload all the RAID5 math to your CPU via the driver.
That it will work in a Mac but can't be booted off of suggests that they're still doing a lot in the driver.

[mduell]

Woo, just a few days ago Tomshardware benchmarked over a dozen PCI-X and PCIe controllers, including the Highpoint 2320. Although the 2320 isn't the worst of the bunch, it significantly underperforms the 3ware and Areca cards which have onboard CPUs.

[CIA]

Well, I cancelled my order for the highpoint card. I guess my pretty Raptors will sit here untill I can buy a SATA PCIe card that supports eSATA and true hardware RAID. Sniff.. I guess I can use one of the Raptors in the spare bay in the meanwhile.... Will 2 Raptors saturate a Firewire bus when used in a RAID 0?

[mduell]

Originally Posted by CIA

Well, I cancelled my order for the highpoint card. I guess my pretty Raptors will sit here untill I can buy a SATA PCIe card that supports eSATA and true hardware RAID. Sniff.. I guess I can use one of the Raptors in the spare bay in the meanwhile.... Will 2 Raptors saturate a Firewire bus when used in a RAID 0?

Heh... one alone can nearly saturate the practical bandwidth of FW800.
Why not use software RAID from OSX for now, and the 160GB external for periodic backups?

[CIA]

Yeah, I guess that would work. I just had the dream of a uber fast drive setup. But your right I shouldn't complain considering what I am working with to start.
I guess it will be booting off the 2x internal Raptors using the built in bus, set up as RAID 0, a 160 GB firewire external as the nightly backup, and then a bunch of firewire drives also for Data. I will wait for a PCIe Firewire800/400 card and use that to distribute the bandwidth around a little, as it looks like I will be using about 6 external drives at the moment. Final setup looks like this:
Internal:
2x74GB Raptors on internal SATA bus in RAID 0
External drives in firewire cases:
1x160 (RAID Boot backup/Mirror)
1x250 PATA
1x250 SATA (stock drive moved to external case)
2x120 PATA (maybe in dual bay external case.. hmmm)
1 FW DVR-109
And of course 2 iPods, a small 60GB 2.5" USB2/firewire drive
and who knows what else....