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ndptal85 · Feb 28, 2006, 06:53 PM

I know everyone is bummed about the Mac Mini's shared video ram. So am I. But I don't need any kind of HD capability now or for the next several years. I'm not willing to shell out the money for an HDTV set when the standards are still shifting and we have HDCP to accomodate soon as well. That said, how well would the Intel Mac Mini do as a Standard Video DVR/PVR? I have analog cable. Won't be getting digital cable anytime soon.

I specked out the price:
Mac Mini Core Duo: $800
Elgato 200: $200 (Refurbished) $350 New
20.1 Widescreen LCD: $379 (Two brands on Costco.com)
1GB of RAM: $100
Speakers and sub woofer: $100.
Total: $1579-$1729
I already have a bluetooth keyboard and an external FW 160GB HD.
This is cheaper than just getting the 20" iMac which starts out at $1700 and I would still need to get the Elgato tuner which would add $200-$350 on top of that. I already have a bluetooth keyboard.

I currently have a 19" regular sized/shaped TV so I'm thinking I'd use the 20.1" LCD as my television pretty much full time. Would the Mac Mini have enough power to playback standard video to that size LCD without any slowdowns or stuttering? I figure if it can do DVDs fine (which I'm certain it can) then it ought to be able to handle standard video from an analog cable connection. I just want to be sure though.

Please note I also plan to use this as a desktop computer. I have a Powerbook G4 that I use a lot too so this wouldn't be used full time as a desktop computer but its why I choose the top of the line Core Duo Mini.

Thanks

Eug Wanker · Feb 28, 2006, 07:05 PM

Just buy a DVD recorder or something. Or you could buy a DVR (which works with analogue cable too). Much much cheaper (and easier).

ndptal85 · Feb 28, 2006, 07:11 PM

I would have already done so if thats what I wanted to do. I want a Mac as a DVR.

baw · Feb 28, 2006, 07:18 PM

I use Tivo.

Helmling · Feb 28, 2006, 07:24 PM

I think currently, you'd still need an add-on.

But broadcast TV's days are numbered...granted, it's still a really big number!

ndptal85 · Feb 28, 2006, 07:37 PM

An add on what?

Eug Wanker · Feb 28, 2006, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by ndptal85

I would have already done so if thats what I wanted to do. I want a Mac as a DVR.

Why? Just wondering. If you want to keep the files then that makes sense, but if you want to use a Mac just as a basic DVR, then it seems like a rather complicated (and expensive) route to take. YMMV.

ndptal85 · Feb 28, 2006, 08:51 PM

This isn't really going to cost me much of anything. I have a Dell Inspiron 9300 17" laptop that I am going to sell and basically break even. It currently serves as my main computer. So I need a replacement computer AND a DVR.

quiklee · Mar 1, 2006, 02:32 AM

someone needs to make a TIVO/Slingbox Widget . . . . . contest?

ndptal85 · Mar 1, 2006, 08:56 AM

Such a widget would be awesome.

Sparkletron · Mar 1, 2006, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by ndptal85

...how well would the Intel Mac Mini do as a Standard Video DVR/PVR? I have analog cable. Won't be getting digital cable anytime soon.

This is a good question. For those who don't understand why someone would do this, the Mini wouldn't merely replace a DVD player; it would become an HTPC. It would play CDs, DVDs, and all digital file formats. So it would do everything a DVD player can do and more. Furthermore, unlike closed system solutions, you decide what clients and codecs to use. And of course everything can be upgraded or changed at will.

The only serious concern is, as you have intimated, video support. But I don't think it's an issue for regular CRT TVs, which no matter how large they are typically do not exceed 400 raster lines. What I am interested in is how good the overall HT experience will be for basic things like watching DVDs.

-S

Eug Wanker · Mar 1, 2006, 10:16 AM

PCs generally suck for basic DVD playback on small TVs IMO, because they're much more cumbersome to control. It's a different situation if you're talking a full-blown home theatre system however, because potential image quality and added feature set become more important than with small TVs.

I should point out also that Apple DVD Player.app isn't a very good deinterlacer. Combing is a distinct problem with Apple's player on some material.

ghporter · Mar 1, 2006, 10:46 AM

The real reason to use a computer as a DVR has to be editing-as in dumping commercials before burning a program to disc. As Eug says, you can spend a lot less and get a DVD recorder or DVR to just record stuff. But as far as I'm concerned (and I've been watching this sort of thing long before even the obscenely expensive first generation of DVD recorders came out) the ability to manipulate a recording is the whole reason for a DVR in the first place.

You can do this by recording a program to disc, editing it on your computer, and then burning it again. Or you can use the (often clumsy) menus in a DVR to get rid of the commercials-probably. But using a dedicated software package to snip out the ads works much better and is much more flexible.

Now, is the Mini a good platform for this? I don't think so. A solid, well supported tuner card and well-built, dedicated software are required to put all the functions together. The Mini cannot even accept an internal tuner, and the USB tuners out there (those that support Mac OS) are not "optimum" for this task.

betasp · Mar 1, 2006, 11:12 AM

The biggest negative I see would be the lack of CableCard support. TIVO will be adding it with the new models due this year. Combine that with the soon-to-be released Tivo-to-go software and you can get the videos over to your Mac or iPod easily.

Eug Wanker · Mar 1, 2006, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

The real reason to use a computer as a DVR has to be editing-as in dumping commercials before burning a program to disc. As Eug says, you can spend a lot less and get a DVD recorder or DVR to just record stuff. But as far as I'm concerned (and I've been watching this sort of thing long before even the obscenely expensive first generation of DVD recorders came out) the ability to manipulate a recording is the whole reason for a DVR in the first place.

I have a hard-drive based DVR, and I just delete the TV shows after I watch them.

My understanding that this is the pattern of use for the vast majority of DVR owners. Some with kids though keep the kids' shows, to let them watch them over and over again. If you keep a lot of shows this way, space can become an issue, but fortunately some of the current crop of DVRs accept external hard drives.

When I want to keep a show, I just output it to my DVD recorder (rare), or else buy the DVD.

ndptal85 · Mar 1, 2006, 12:05 PM

Just to review before this gets off track keep this in mind.

1. I won't be using this with a small tv, but with a 20.1" LCD monitor, not a LCD TV.

2. I don't need CableCard support. I'll probably still have Analog cable 2 to 3 years from now and if I move up to Digital cable then Elgato also has a digital cable product.

3. Yes it would become a HTPC, not just a DVD Player or DVR. In fact playing DVDs on it would be pretty rare but I would burn some saved TV shows to DVD to bring to a friend's house. Plus with Bonjour enabled Front Row I'd be able to view media stored on the Mini on my Powerbook. Plus the Front Row remote would make operating the DVD Player on the Mini very simple.

It would suck to have to wait till the Intel Mini's hit the Apple Stores and then go there and try one out while its hooked up to a 20.1" Apple Cinema Display but it seems like thats what I may have to do. Does no one here use their computer + LCD monitor to watch TV? Not a computer hooked up to a TV, but to a LCD monitor?

mduell · Mar 1, 2006, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Now, is the Mini a good platform for this? I don't think so. A solid, well supported tuner card and well-built, dedicated software are required to put all the functions together. The Mini cannot even accept an internal tuner, and the USB tuners out there (those that support Mac OS) are not "optimum" for this task.

So get a Firewire TV tuner?

jamito · Mar 1, 2006, 12:52 PM

I have used my 20 ACD to watch tv. I basically use my powerbook to record some shows if i cannot be there to watch them, then watch them on my powerbook (via the 20" ACD). It works fine. The one thing I would say would be a deal breaker would be quality. I'm not sure how the the eyetv 200 rates, so I would check that out, if you can. The final thing, if you get a widescreen monitor, then your "tv" screen size would be smaller. When I watch the shows on my display, I get black bars on both sides of my monitor.

ndptal85 · Mar 1, 2006, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by jamito

I have used my 20 ACD to watch tv. I basically use my powerbook to record some shows if i cannot be there to watch them, then watch them on my powerbook (via the 20" ACD). It works fine. The one thing I would say would be a deal breaker would be quality. I'm not sure how the the eyetv 200 rates, so I would check that out, if you can. The final thing, if you get a widescreen monitor, then your "tv" screen size would be smaller. When I watch the shows on my display, I get black bars on both sides of my monitor.

So what kind of tuner do you use? And how is the quality of yours?

ghporter · Mar 1, 2006, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

So get a Firewire TV tuner?

There is a smaller selection of Firewire tuners than of USB tuners. Elegato's EyeTV is probably the best of the bunch in terms of function and compatibility, but it handles ONE input signal and it's pretty expensive. Hauppauge makes a number of multi-input, onboard encoding tuner cards that are significantly less expensive. Further, what software out there gives a Mac the kind of capabilities that Snapstream's Beyond TV software has? This is what MS's Media Center could have been but now cannot be-functional, un-geeked and easy for anyone to use.

The prices are really an eye-catcher; Elegato's software and hardware run over $400, while the combination of Beyond TV and a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-350 is about $220. Plus it looks like Beyond TV gives you a lot more functionality than EyeTV.

The combination of cost and functionality are what convince me that (at this point in time) the Windows platform offers the most flexibility and thus the most "bang for the buck" in terms of DVR machines.

Like I said, I've been looking at this situation for a long time.

Sparkletron · Mar 1, 2006, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

The combination of cost and functionality are what convince me that (at this point in time) the Windows platform offers the most flexibility and thus the most "bang for the buck" in terms of DVR machines.

Generally, I agree. But one important consideration is the noise level. My Shuttle is fast and beautiful and would make a decent HTPC--were it not for the jet engine like noise levels that emanate from it. The Mini is small and quiet. I have not seen a PC that is as small and quiet while delivering comparable features.

Of course once you add the external DVR hardware, the setup is not so small. But still very quiet.

-S

ndptal85 · Mar 1, 2006, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

There is a smaller selection of Firewire tuners than of USB tuners. Elegato's EyeTV is probably the best of the bunch in terms of function and compatibility, but it handles ONE input signal and it's pretty expensive. Hauppauge makes a number of multi-input, onboard encoding tuner cards that are significantly less expensive. Further, what software out there gives a Mac the kind of capabilities that Snapstream's Beyond TV software has? This is what MS's Media Center could have been but now cannot be-functional, un-geeked and easy for anyone to use.

The prices are really an eye-catcher; Elegato's software and hardware run over $400, while the combination of Beyond TV and a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-350 is about $220. Plus it looks like Beyond TV gives you a lot more functionality than EyeTV.

The combination of cost and functionality are what convince me that (at this point in time) the Windows platform offers the most flexibility and thus the most "bang for the buck" in terms of DVR machines.

Like I said, I've been looking at this situation for a long time.

There are refurbished EyeTV 200's available on the Elgato site for $200. With the included EyeTV 2 software what features does Beyond TV offer that EyeTV 2 doesn't?

mduell · Mar 1, 2006, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Further, what software out there gives a Mac the kind of capabilities that Snapstream's Beyond TV software has? This is what MS's Media Center could have been but now cannot be-functional, un-geeked and easy for anyone to use.

What? If anything I would describe MS MCE as functional, ungeeky, and easy to use. Have you ever sat down and used it?
Sage TV is also nice if you want more features than Beyond TV or MCE provide (like using multiple tuners in multiple computers with centralized scheduling).

jamito · Mar 1, 2006, 08:37 PM

I use a eye tv wonder usb 2.0. the problem with mine compared to the eyetv 200 is that i have to use my processor to encode. so when i use powerbook, the g4 doesn't allow me to have the greatest quality. it's watch-able, but i don't expect to save them for the future. however, this maybe completely different with the eyetv 200, since it does hardware encoding.

ghporter · Mar 1, 2006, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

What? If anything I would describe MS MCE as functional, ungeeky, and easy to use. Have you ever sat down and used it?
Sage TV is also nice if you want more features than Beyond TV or MCE provide (like using multiple tuners in multiple computers with centralized scheduling).

I'm a member of what has been the second largest computer user group in the country (not lately-membership has been falling off), and we've been hosts to a lot of presentations, including two different Microsoft demos of different MCE versions. The biggest gripe I have with MCE is that they want EVERYTHING that might be called "digital media" all tied up together. That means that they cache your JPEGs for easy access as a slide show (easy access on a machine that fits the MCE minimum standards should be native from the hardware), and scour your machine for every MP3 and WAV, no matter whether you want it or not-the first version even featured the Windows start up sound in the Music menu-and even if you tell it to forget the things you don't want, it will find them again, just to "help you out." The geeky part is that Microsoft thinks you WANT all of this and can't do without it. Snapstream is for VIDEO. It doesn't take over your whole machine, and it doesn't "find" stuff you don't want included in a file list.

So sure, MCE is pretty functional, it looks really nice, and it has pretty colors. But it insists IT knows more about what I want than I do-like a good geek with no idea of style, rhythm or artistic consistency. I guess I don't like being told I don't know any better.

ndptal85 · Mar 19, 2006, 04:26 PM

An Update:

The Mini Core Duo works incredibly well as a DVR for analog cable setups. The Elgato EyeTV software is flawless and Elgato now has Universal binaries. I went with the Dell 2001FP 20" 4:3 aspect monitor and I love it. I store my video content on an external USB 2 drive, and there is noticable speed hit from the external drive being USB 2 instead of Firewire. My external drive is 80GB (76GB real use) so that equates to about 38 hours of recorded TV at the quality settings (Standard) I currently have it at.

Just to show you how over-powered for the task the Core Duo Mini is, I installed the EyeTV on my Powerbook G4 1Ghz to see how it would run.....and it runs flawlessly there as well. Just hogs the CPU, but thats all. Uses about 60% of the CPU on the G4, and around 50% of both cores on the Core Duo. So I can record shows on the Mini and transfer them to my Powerbook to watch them on the go. Works great. In the future I'll setup my Mini for remote access so I can download shows on the go. That would really be awesome.

If anyone has any questions about my setup, feel free to ask!

Sparkletron · Mar 19, 2006, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by ndptal85

The Mini Core Duo works incredibly well as a DVR for analog cable setups.

Thanks for the feedback. How is it for DVD playback? How does the pic look? Remote? Etc.? I am using a cheapo Chinese DivX capable player and would like to replace it with a Mini.

-S

eddiecatflap · Mar 19, 2006, 11:08 PM

i like the look of the eye tv for dtt

i'm using an old eye tv usb 1.1 with digital tv in via scart and it works surprisingly well

i think my dual core 2ghz helps a LOT

ndptal85 · Mar 19, 2006, 11:12 PM

DVD Playback is fine. For those who are really picky over video quality then the Dell 2001FP may not be the one for them as it has a 16ms response time but for me its great and I don't notice any issues with it. No ghosting, streaking...etc

Are you asking me about the remote control? Works fine. From non-line of sight angles even. The Elgato EyeTV setup comes with a remote too. One thing I have noticed is I can't get the mini to read DVD's that I've recorded myself onto DVD-R discs. I'll look into that some more later on. Don't know if its a matter of a firmware update or what.