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Filipoos · Aug 18, 2006, 12:24 PM

Hello,

i need help with a change i can make.

I'm a design student, i use mainly CS2 creative suite at home, and i'm actually working on a AMD64 3.0+, 1GB DDR400 RAM.
However my father needs a new good, fast computer for their personal work gabinet, and he propused me to take mine and he provides me a new Mac Pro.

My configuration would be:
3.0GHZ
8GB (4x2GB)
500GB hdd
ATI Radeon X1900
Apple Cinema Display 20"
1x Superdrive
AirPort Extreme Wifi Card

Although, this is a real big investment, so i would like to have sure that would be a real good investment too, my 2 points of concern are:

1. CS2 running under rosetta, however CS3 is coming out in 6 months, i can work in rosetta speed for 6 months or so, that's not a real problem, when CS3 universal binary comes out i will have a outstand performance with this machine.

2. and the most concerning question is the leopard. Anyone knows when it will be out there ? Using tiger, i would not be allowd to update to leopard, right ? so i would have to buy a new OS disc, and make a backup and re-install everything, right ?

I'm still confused, because, if i want to change, i will have to do it NOW, i have 1 week or 2 to decide, and i have to order the new machine (if i trade with my father), i cant wait 6 or 8 or 10 months for leopard to come out, and CS3 to come out, and if i dont change, i probably will change, only when i finish college, 3 years from now.

ender78 · Aug 18, 2006, 12:33 PM

8GB of RAM may be overkill for now. Waiting a little while for RAM prices to stabilize can be a good way to save money.

When I upgraded to Tiger, I installed over Panther. There may be advantages to doing a clean install but in the past it has been possible to install over the old OS.

chefpastry · Aug 18, 2006, 12:34 PM

I believe that we are still 6-8 months away from the release of Leopard. Yes, you will have to pay to upgrade. When upgrading OS X, you do not have to "make a backup and re-install everything." Just put the disc in the computer and upgrade. Nothing to re-install.

UnixMac · Aug 18, 2006, 12:44 PM

Go on, get it.. you'll be happy, and you can then trade it up for the latest and greatest Mac in 5 years or so.. CS3 and 10.5 are both less than a year away.. I doubt inside on 1 year there will be much by way of a faster Pro, or cheaper anything..

mduell · Aug 18, 2006, 12:49 PM

I'd suggest 2.66Ghz and the 23" display (or even the 30")... the marginal gain from the upgrade to 3.0 isn't much to justify the $800 upgrade price.

7300GT will be fine for Photoshop work. Get the X1900 if you want to play games.

8GB RAM is overkill, since the current version of Photoshop can't use more than 4. I'd buy 4GB now.

The Leopard student upgrade should only be ~$70ish. You can upgrade without blowing out all your current stuff.

jamil5454 · Aug 18, 2006, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

I'd suggest 2.66Ghz and the 23" display (or even the 30")... the marginal gain from the upgrade to 3.0 isn't much to justify the $800 upgrade price.

7300GT will be fine for Photoshop work. Get the X1900 if you want to play games.

8GB RAM is overkill, since the current version of Photoshop can't use more than 4. I'd buy 4GB now.

The Leopard student upgrade should only be ~$70ish. You can upgrade without blowing out all your current stuff.

Seconded. mduell always seems to give good advice. Go with the 2.66 and 4GB of RAM and grab the 30" display. You'll be glad you did.

milhouse · Aug 18, 2006, 01:12 PM

If you are doing or plan on doing some development work, consider the student developer program. It is only $99 to join and the machine discount is significant.

I ordered a 2.66 w/2GB RAM today.

I'll also chime in on the RAM comments. 8GB seems like overkill.

Good luck

Filipoos · Aug 18, 2006, 01:32 PM

Yap, i think 8gb is overkill too, but apple could provide 4gb(2x2GB), so it would be expansible to 16GB, if i put 8Gb it will be expansible to 16GB, and i know that you will say for the price i will buy 8GB, i could get 16GB in the future, but i was thinking in doing a powerfull machine now, and in the future make little changes.

About the graphic card, i will order X1900 not only for indesign/photoshop work , but for games to (mainly WoW).

Altought i think i will order 4GB RAM and 23" display.

I think i already read some bad reviews about 23" display, is that possible ?
Has someone critiques about it ?

Thank you very much.

UnixMac · Aug 18, 2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Filipoos

I think i already read some bad reviews about 23" display, is that possible ?
Has someone critiques about it ?

two years of trouble free, jaw dropping results from my 23"

Filipoos · Aug 18, 2006, 01:46 PM

I think my final configuration will be:

3.0GHZ
4GB
500GB hdd
ATI Radeon X1900
Apple Cinema Display 23"
1x Superdrive
AirPort Extreme Wifi Card

It's a pitty apple don't provide 4GB in 2x2GB modules, so people can fully upgrade to 16GB :|

Excelent machine anyway

Filipoos · Aug 18, 2006, 07:05 PM

mduell i think about your reply, do you think the geforce is fine for photoshop/indesign work ? I was reading some reviews about it, saying it was really bad card, but no.one said the final proposeit.
I would have some more money for a better display.

unixmac: you decide on a 30" display, any special reason ? sorry for the curiosity, but i'm thinking if a 30" is not to big ...

Thank you very much.

filipoos

UnixMac · Aug 18, 2006, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Filipoos

unixmac: you decide on a 30" display, any special reason ? sorry for the curiosity, but i'm thinking if a 30" is not to big ...

Thank you very much.

filipoos

I feel dumb, but for some reason I thought the price of the 30 was something like $2999, and never even bothered to look... when I saw they were $1999, and my friend said he'd pay me $650 for my current 23", I said what the heck!

all2ofme · Aug 19, 2006, 01:58 AM

Filipoos: The GeForce will be fine for Photoshop and InDesign work. There'd be no difference between it and the other two cards.

2D and 3D accelerated stuff like Motion, Aperture, games, 3D visualisation stuff will be slower on it (by quite a margin), though.

jamil5454 · Aug 19, 2006, 09:31 AM

I'd strongly recommend getting the 2.66 (not 3.0) and springing for a 30" display as well. What's more important to you... much larger screen real-estate or a second or two faster rotates and image blurs?

UnixMac · Aug 19, 2006, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by jamil5454

I'd strongly recommend getting the 2.66 (not 3.0) and springing for a 30" display as well. What's more important to you... much larger screen real-estate or a second or two faster rotates and image blurs?

Both!

Filipoos · Aug 19, 2006, 10:00 AM

jamil5454: I'm REALLY considering the 2.6, and X1900 & 30" display.

unixmac: I wish i could buy both, i'm a student, as i said, my father will provide me this all machine, it will be very expansive to buy X1900 (wich they recommend to connect one 30" LCD), 3.0GHz processor & 30" display.

thank you

UnixMac · Aug 19, 2006, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Filipoos

jamil5454: I'm REALLY considering the 2.6, and X1900 & 30" display.

unixmac: I wish i could buy both, i'm a student, as i said, my father will provide me this all machine, it will be very expansive to buy X1900 (wich they recommend to connect one 30" LCD), 3.0GHz processor & 30" display.

thank you

I was just being tongue in cheek... I know that you're already stretched.. and FWIW, Jamil makes sense.. the screen is nice and the speed is 10% at best.. that said, I need all the speed I can get as I hate to wait!

Filipoos · Aug 19, 2006, 10:27 AM

I was just checking the possibilities of macpro configrations (i have so much time to do it, in my country, the new mac pro only arrives in 5 weeks, i think it is not possible to ship from another country apple site), and i checked that 2x 23" displays price is equal to 1x 30"... I think i prefer 1x 30" display, but, what do you think about it ?

phantomdragonz · Aug 20, 2006, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by milhouse

If you are doing or plan on doing some development work, consider the student developer program. It is only $99 to join and the machine discount is significant.

YOWZA!!!

that discount is MASSIVE!!!

OK here is what I looked up...

first is WITH the ADC discount, (realistically it would be $100 more each one)

Mac Pro 2.66 w/ x1900xt +airport/bluetooth $2342
Mac Pro 2.66 w/ airport+bluetooth $2062

NOW... just the plain edu discount...

Mac Pro 2.66 w/ x1900xt +airport/bluetooth $2685
Mac Pro 2.66 w/ airport+bluetooth $2370

Not to shabby... an additional $300+ off the normal edu discount... you still have to pay the $100 for the ADC membership... but you still come out ahead! Looks like I am going to be a developer, sorta...

Zach

mduell · Aug 20, 2006, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Filipoos

mduell i think about your reply, do you think the geforce is fine for photoshop/indesign work ? I was reading some reviews about it, saying it was really bad card, but no.one said the final proposeit.
I would have some more money for a better display.

unixmac: you decide on a 30" display, any special reason ? sorry for the curiosity, but i'm thinking if a 30" is not to big ...

The 7300 line isn't terribly good for games. The 7300GT is the best of the bunch, so comments about a 7300 don't necessairly apply to the GT. The folks saying that it's a really bad card are talking about the latest 3D shooter. It's a fine card for any Adobe app.

DeathMan · Aug 24, 2006, 02:37 PM

I'd try to get as much machine as your dad will get you. I'm not sure the 3.0ghz is worth the extra money, and I'd put that money toward something else, like a better GPU, or save it and upgrade chips later on.

Personally, I'd take 2X23" over a single 30" I'd imagine you'd spend most of your time on a single 23" and use the other one when it really matters, like in aperture, or video editing (if you do that) I'm pretty sure a 23" would handle a 2-page spread just fine in InDesign, and for photoshop it should be great too. The massive size of a single 30" would just be a lot of real estate to cover on a regular basis, I think.

However, not having used one over a period of time, I may be missing some benefit to a 30" setup.

hickey · Aug 24, 2006, 03:28 PM

my vote is for the 2.66 model, and opting for a 30" display, with 4 gigs of RAM.

But no matter what config you end up getting, it'll be stellar either way.

thag-simmons · Aug 24, 2006, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz

YOWZA!!!

that discount is MASSIVE!!!

Zach

For non-students, there is always Amazon. If you have the Amazon credit card, that gives you 3% off which comes back to you in Amazon gift certificates. They currently also have a $150 rebate on the Mac Pro. The a9 search engine discount gets you about $39 off. And free shipping, no sales tax to most places.

$2499
- 75
- 150
- 39
= $2235

UnixMac · Aug 24, 2006, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by thag-simmons

For non-students, there is always Amazon. If you have the Amazon credit card, that gives you 3% off which comes back to you in Amazon gift certificates. They currently also have a $150 rebate on the Mac Pro. The a9 search engine discount gets you about $39 off. And free shipping, no sales tax to most places.

$2499
- 75
- 150
- 39
= $2235

How can they get away with that? Apple is militant with their retail pricing policy? Rebates on a brand new Mac?

SierraDragon · 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Filipoos

My configuration would be:
3.0GHZ
8GB (4x2GB)
500GB hdd
ATI Radeon X1900
Apple Cinema Display 20"
1x Superdrive
AirPort Extreme Wifi Card

Although, this is a real big investment, so i would like to have sure that would be a real good investment too...

First off, think 2007-2008-2009, Leopard and CS3: graphics hardware power will be MUCH more relevant. PSCS2, for instance, currently only uses the graphics GPU for simple blitting, making the 7300GT OK for today, but not for the 2007-2008-2009 future when the OS and apps like CS3 will utilize the GPU very heavily. You definitely do want the X1900 even if you never play one game.

Secondly, you need two hard drives for lots of reasons. Speedwise Photoshop badly needs its scratch disk assigned on a separate drive. And, internal fast backup is very useful.

This is the first generation MacIntel tower; by January CPU power will double, and as time goes on apps will evolve to utilize more CPU power. IMO the extra cost fo the 3 GHz is worth it if your dad will go for it. Similarly 4x2 on the RAM is a good idea; second choice would be the stock 1 GB and add 2x2 from OWC. IMO it is dumb to buy RAM modules smaller than 2 GB each.

Graphics pros generally find two monitors to be indispensable (one for the work and one for palettes). 2x20, 2x23 or 1-20 plus 1-23. I would not dream of working with a single monitor.

FYI I will soon be buying exactly what you spec'd above, except with three large hard drives, 1-23" and 1-20" display. I would love to have a 30" plus a 20" display but the 30" will not fit my work space.

I spent years as a grad student Mac developer. It's a great deal and I strongly recommend it. You get all the new OS versions as they come out as part of your membership, plus hardware bargains once in a while.

-Allen Wicks

UnixMac · Aug 24, 2006, 08:11 PM

[QUOTE=SierraDragon This is the first generation MacIntel tower; by January CPU power will double, [/QUOTE]

I beg your pardon? CPU power will double inside of 4 months? How pray tell do you expect this?

mduell · Aug 24, 2006, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

I beg your pardon? CPU power will double inside of 4 months? How pray tell do you expect this?

Intel has stated they will release quad core chips (really two dual core dies in one package) before the end of the year... 2.66Ghz clockrate, 1066Mhz FSB, and 2x4MB or 2x2MB cache. Available in single socket (Kentsfield) and SMP-capable (Clovertown) models.

UnixMac · Aug 24, 2006, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Intel has stated they will release quad core chips (really two dual core dies in one package) before the end of the year... 2.66Ghz clockrate, 1066Mhz FSB, and 2x4MB or 2x2MB cache. Available in single socket (Kentsfield) and SMP-capable (Clovertown) models.

so in theory these will NOT be compatible with the current MacPro Motherboard? Interesting..

I always figured I would upgrade the CPU's on mine when 2x3.0Ghz is no longer fast enough...

trevorM · Aug 24, 2006, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

I feel dumb, but for some reason I thought the price of the 30 was something like $2999, and never even bothered to look... when I saw they were $1999, and my friend said he'd pay me $650 for my current 23", I said what the heck!

You will love the 30". The 23" will not be missed what so ever!

shawmanus · Aug 24, 2006, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

so in theory these will NOT be compatible with the current MacPro Motherboard? Interesting..

I always figured I would upgrade the CPU's on mine when 2x3.0Ghz is no longer fast enough...

Didn't a news come recently that clovertown would have 1333mhz fsb and would be compatible with woodcrest chipsets.

Filipoos · Aug 24, 2006, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Intel has stated they will release quad core chips (really two dual core dies in one package) before the end of the year... 2.66Ghz clockrate, 1066Mhz FSB, and 2x4MB or 2x2MB cache. Available in single socket (Kentsfield) and SMP-capable (Clovertown) models.

So ... like UnixMac has written, the new cpu's will not be compatible to the actual motherboards ?

that's weird ... :|

Mac Write · Aug 24, 2006, 09:50 PM

I would go with the 250GB HD (Save the $250) use the 250GB as the OS/Apps drive. Then get a after-market HD for your home folder and then a third drive as the scratch drive. I would also get the bluetooth since it's very useful to use with your cellphone and all and easier to add during the BTO. Lastly go dual SuperDrives. having 2 Optical drives is nice (my mom and I with identical MDD's DP 1.25GHZ 1.79GB RAM) find them useful.

I also strongly recommend the X1900 512MB RAM as CoreImage is going to become more and more a requirement and that video card will just help that much more. I am working on my moms 20" she got a week ago today and I would agree 2x23 would make for a great setup.

SierraDragon · 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mac Write

... Lastly go dual SuperDrives. having 2 Optical drives is nice...

Better to save the extra slot for high density Blu-ray or whatever, due soon.

-Allen Wicks

mduell · Aug 25, 2006, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

so in theory these will NOT be compatible with the current MacPro Motherboard? Interesting..

I always figured I would upgrade the CPU's on mine when 2x3.0Ghz is no longer fast enough...

Originally Posted by Filipoos

So ... like UnixMac has written, the new cpu's will not be compatible to the actual motherboards ?

that's weird ... :|

No, as far as I know the quads-on-a-chip will be the same socket (well, grid array... LGA771) and work with just a firmware update.

Mister Elf · Aug 26, 2006, 06:40 PM

I think you'll be fine with CS2 under Rosetta - benchmarks have been showing that it's just as fast as on the Quad G5 when running on a 3.0GHz Mac Pro, even with Rosetta.

Filipoos · Aug 28, 2006, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mac Write

I would go with the 250GB HD (Save the $250) use the 250GB as the OS/Apps drive. Then get a after-market HD for your home folder and then a third drive as the scratch drive.

what do you mean by "scratch drive" ? i have searched i i found that's a disk for temporary storage of data that can real improve the speed of the programs, but how i can activate photoshop to use one certain disk as a scratch drive ?

btw, i think i will put 250gb (for os/app) + 500gb (home usage) + (250gb for scratch disk!?!?)

thank you

SierraDragon · 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Filipoos

what do you mean by "scratch drive" ? i have searched i i found that's a disk for temporary storage of data that can real improve the speed of the programs, but how i can activate photoshop to use one certain disk as a scratch drive ? ...btw, i think i will put 250gb (for os/app) + 500gb (home usage) + (250gb for scratch disk!?!?)

From within Photoshop go to Photoshop/Preferences/"Plug Ins & Scratch Disks." It is essential that the primary scratch disk be on a different physical drive than the OS and Application.

Your size allocations sound appropriate to me.

-Allen Wicks

Mac Write · Aug 29, 2006, 02:16 AM

Just realized for better preformance, go with Rapter (10K) drives for the scratch drive and maybe even the OS/Apps drive. With 3 drives on 3 seperate buses running your computer, you should see a noticeable (I hope) performance boost. Now I can't wait to upgrade my MDD DP 1.25GHZ I only have a OS/Apps, Data, Data 2 drive at present.

Filipoos · Aug 30, 2006, 08:04 PM

I have to ask about a little thing that is confusing me, about having 3 hdds.

1hdd - 250gb for aplications
1hdd - 500gb for home
1hdd - 250gb for scratch disk propuse

my aplications disk will store every program i will install right ? everytime i have to install something that disk will take of it ... the home disk, i will store everything i have, liek movies bla bla bla (but how do i define one disk, as /home disk?

it will be overkill and stupid to put only 2 500GB hdd, the first one (app & home) and the second one scratchdisk ?

thank you

PS: what tipe of disk i should buy, SATA 2.5 , SATA 3,5 OR SATA II 3,5 ??

Mac Write · Aug 30, 2006, 10:04 PM

All depends how much stuff you have. You could start out with a OS/Apps+Home drives then go from there. I think having the Rapter 10K drives for OS/Apps+Scratch drives does help with preformance.

SierraDragon · Aug 30, 2006, 10:20 PM

...it will be overkill and stupid to put only 2 500GB hdd, the first one (app & home) and the second one scratchdisk ?

2x500 is a fine choice if that's all the space you need. Just partition the second drive to be scratch plus project data, backup, etc. Approx. 150-200 GB for scratch plus 300-350 GB for project data would be fine. Less overhead of course, maybe 5 GB.

If your Photoshop files will for sure for the life of the drive always be under 1 GB you could reduce the size of the scratch disk to 60-100 GB. Note that the life of a drive often is longer than the life of the box.

Personally I also use the scratch disk for files I know to be non permanent, like certain downloads, or an image file I am working on but will not save when the project is done. Then when I routinely erase the scratch partition each month those files go away, helping to minimize hard drive clutter.

-Allen Wicks

Mac Write · Aug 31, 2006, 02:18 AM

I would strongly recommend against partitioning the drive for scratch/data as the head will have to do double work, get a 70GB+ Rapther 10K drive and use it for scratch drive. Also might want to move the OS X VM to the scratch drive as well. As for backup use a physically separate drive. What's the use of a backup partition on the same drive your backing up from? Get an external firewire drive and use Time Machine to backup all your stuff (oh wait it's not out yet). For now if you have .Mac use .Mac backup to do your backups to an external drive.

Filipoos · Aug 31, 2006, 08:32 AM

thank you macwrite and sierradragon I'm thinking about all chances, and what about the disks types. can someone help me ?

In the shop i will buy them it has 3 types SATA 2.5 , SATA 3,5 OR SATA II 3,5, what's the right one ?

thank you

SierraDragon · Aug 31, 2006, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mac Write

...What's the use of a backup partition on the same drive your backing up from?

Good point!

Mac Write · Aug 31, 2006, 03:30 PM

The only drive I partition is my OS/Apps drive for I can have a 15GB OS testing partition. All other drives are single partitions (as in no partitions). Rapter drives are a type of drive (I think Western Digital makes them). The Mac Pro's use the latest SATA drives which I think are SATA2.