[sibuser]

Hope I am not treading on previously covered material and if so, I apologize. Another PC user who made the jump to the Mac Pro and is still learning. I am a composer/arranger and I wanted to escape the endless problems with distortion and degradation when composing music using VST instruments in conjunction with Sibelius notation software, or Cubase. I have a G5 Mac Pro (2.66 GHz) with 2 GB of memory. I know that my M-Audio Delta 44 will not work in the Mac (PCe slots), so I am currently using a Tascam US-122. Someone told me to just use the built in digital audio out that is on the Mac. Is this the square output at the back? If so, what does it connect to? I cannot seem to find anyone to answer this question. What sort of latency issues can I expect if I use the built in audio on the Mac? How does the built in audio compare to the ASIO standard that I am used to from the PC? Hope I have not asked too many questions at once (1st post), I probably have. I love my Mac, I just want to know where to go from here.

Thanks
sibuser

[butterfly0fdoom]

Well, if either of your devices have MIDI, it makes things even easier.

[chris v]

Core Audio seems pretty adaptable to your devices. Whatever sample rates your device will work at, seem to be automatically accepted. As far optical i/o, I really have no knowledge, but I've used my G5 with first a Delta 44, and now a Motu Traveller Firewire i/o. I've been really happy with the Traveller so far. I haven't been able to afford the upgrade from logic 6 to 7 yet, but Logic Pro seems to be THE app for audio production on the Mac. Great synths, lots of great plug-ins in Audio Unit format, etc. If you install third-party Audio Unit plug-ins, they'll work in Garage Band as well, which is actually a kick-ass sketchbook program, becase it's so simple.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by sibuser 

I have a G5 Mac Pro (2.66 GHz) with 2 GB of memory. I know that my M-Audio Delta 44 will not work in the Mac (PCe slots), so I am currently using a Tascam US-122. Someone told me to just use the built in digital audio out that is on the Mac. Is this the square output at the back? If so, what does it connect to?

A quick note: The G5 is Apple's previous pro machine, and the new one is just called a Mac Pro.

The digital audio port is an optical port, like you can find on computers, surround sound receivers, PS2s, and other audio devices. Here's a link all about it.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by butterfly0fdoom 

Well, if either of your devices have MIDI, it makes things even easier.

Sorry, but MIDI has absolutely nothing to do with audio input/output.


The latency within OS X's CoreAudio framework is somewhere less than 1 millisecond (at least, it was at below 40 samples five years ago - it stands to reason that's been optimized since then). Using the built-in audio will probably keep you within one or two ms.

The OS X audio framework really is very very good (so is the MIDI framework, btw.)

[butterfly0fdoom]

Yeah, I know MIDI has nothing to do with audio input/output. I'm just saying, it's an alternative to the input/output ports, and it works with Sibelieus.

[sibuser]

Thanks for the replies. I have the Tascam US-122 working for both MIDI and Audio and I am looking into the Firewire solution. I guess what is really holding me back is that Sibelius and GPO have not completed the Mac Intel versions of their software. GPO, of course, is waiting for Native Instruments to produce a universal binary for their product, I don't know what is holding up Sibelius. Don't get me wrong, the products work as is, but I don't think they take advantage of the duo core processors, so really it's not much better than my PC. When you have more then 8 voice polyphony you hear the pops clicks and some distortion. This should clear up when the programs are re-written, hope so.

[Todd Madson]

Ah, after reading your message it does seem that you might be experiencing
an issue relating to the fact that it is attempting to run those apps under
emulation and you're encountering issues.

But what about a native audio app? What about Garageband and its'
numerous software synthesizer plug-ins? You could try doing something
with that application to see if it's down to your machine or the emulated
software apps that do not yet have a native version.

If the issues occur in garageband then maybe you have a hardware issue
on your computer. But if they don't it's pretty much an emulation problem -
audio does make large demands on system resources and emulated you'll
probably run into problems.

You say it's a G5 Mac Pro but my guess is: it's not a G5 at all, it's a Mac Pro
tower - so currently, your only available native app if you have iLife installed
is Garageband. So give that a shot - you can do quite a lot with it if you learn
it.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by sibuser 

Thanks for the replies. I have the Tascam US-122 working for both MIDI and Audio and I am looking into the Firewire solution. I guess what is really holding me back is that Sibelius and GPO have not completed the Mac Intel versions of their software. GPO, of course, is waiting for Native Instruments to produce a universal binary for their product, I don't know what is holding up Sibelius. Don't get me wrong, the products work as is, but I don't think they take advantage of the duo core processors, so really it's not much better than my PC. When you have more then 8 voice polyphony you hear the pops clicks and some distortion. This should clear up when the programs are re-written, hope so.

The Tascam stuff is fine for the price (IIRC, my US-428 defaulted to 2 ms latency - back in 2001, on a 400 MHz G3 iMac running OS X 10.1!). Is there a reason the interface is not adequate for your needs?

Your problems are almost certainly caused by the fact that the Sibelius software is not Intel-native:

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/help...amp;language=1

Originally Posted by Sibelius support

Sibelius Sounds
Sibelius Sounds products (including Kontakt Silver, Kontakt Gold, Garritan Personal Orchestra Sibelius Edition and Sibelius Rock and Pop Collection) will also run on the new Intel machines under Rosetta. Playback of small ensembles (depending on the machine, using from 5-8 slots without reverb) may work adequately, but using larger ensembles may cause glitches, stutters and pops in playback due to the additional load on the system imposed by Rosetta emulation.

Additionally, Sibelius's Export Audio feature is likely to produce glitches, stutters and pops in the exported audio files, even when Sibelius's playback is glitch-free.

Universal Binary versions of key products in the Sibelius Sounds range will be available at the time of release of the next major upgrade to Sibelius.

The dual processors have nothing to do with it; it's the fact that Sibelius is still written for the G4/G5 (PowerPC) architecture, while you have a Mac Pro, which is Intel-based. The "Rosetta" feature above is the equivalent of having a live translator sitting in on a command chain, translating every single command from one language (PowerPC code) into another (Intel code) before passing it on. This is a MASSIVE performance degrade.

But once the Intel-native/Universal version of Sibelius is released, it will FLY on your machine. Make no mistake - you have one of the most powerful desktop computers available sitting in your studio.

The fact that Rosetta works at all, and so transparently at that, is something experts thought impossible not two years ago.

[sibuser]

Thanks for all of the insightful responses. From now on, it's a Mac Pro, (sorry about the G5 slip up). I am convinced the degradation is being caused by the emulation. Hopefully both Sibelius and NI release the new binaries soon. I am going to investigate Garage Band. Just a quick question before I start. Is one able to notate music in Garage Band in the traditional sense, that is directly to a notation segment of the program? I usually start the composition process with an idea and the notation rather then the sounds.

[Jean-Loup]

Originally Posted by sibuser 

Thanks for all of the insightful responses. From now on, it's a Mac Pro, (sorry about the G5 slip up). I am convinced the degradation is being caused by the emulation. Hopefully both Sibelius and NI release the new binaries soon. I am going to investigate Garage Band. Just a quick question before I start. Is one able to notate music in Garage Band in the traditional sense, that is directly to a notation segment of the program? I usually start the composition process with an idea and the notation rather then the sounds.

Recently graduated sound engeneer, here.
From what I can make out of your needs, I would REALLY recommend Logic Pro. It has a full featured notation app and is ideal for composers...probably better in most respects than PT. Garage Band really won't offer what you need as far as options and I would stay away from Nuendo, Cubase and all those other "non-standards". You're better off having compatibility with the main apps used in the business.

As far as audio/midi interfaces, what where you looking to invest in? What kind of set up do you have right now? Be as specific as possible and I will try to give you my best recommendations.

If you do not have a sound card as of yet, I would recommend getting a digidesign one not because they are "the best" but because you may eventually need PT and it won't work with any other card. IF you're 100% certain you won't be using PT, RME has some REALLY nice cards. But before I get into that, I sould ask you your budget.

So here'S a list of what I would need to know:

Budget?
What you want to do exactly? (composing is too vague)
What equipement do you already have?
What are your plans for expanding your home studio?

Once I know those points, I can probably point you in a good direction.

JL

[sibuser]

Thanks for the questions. I am currently using the following software and hardware. I have both a PC and Mac Pro and I am looking to move all of my composing and arranging software to the Mac. I use Sibelius and Garritan Personal Orchestra to do most of the notation. I am mostly writing for orchestra, concert band, and small ensembles (woodwind quintet, brass quintet, string quartet). I have a Delta 44 card with breakout box, on my PC, an external JV1080 synth and a 12 channel Mackie mixer. I also have Cubase SE and have played around with East West Quantum Library. My Mac Pro has 2 GB of Ram. I am currently using the TASCAM US-122 because it is a USB card which I was able to get working relatively quickly but I am looking for a better solution. I used to have Logic Platinum for the PC I think up to version 3 but I found it more production based than compositional. I tend not to have to record for production, but more for clear ideas of orchestration and for making a demo of the piece I am working with. Budget is somewhat flexible, but certainly not unlimited. Hope this helps, and thanks for taking the time.

[Jean-Loup]

Ok, thanks.

Hmm...I see I may have bitten off more than I can chew I'm much more into recording than composing...but I'll give it a try anyway.
Most of the stuff (aside from the card) you already have will work fine on a Mac. Ditch USB as fast as you can ! From what I undestand, you will still be doing "some" reording...although that's not your main focus.

Ok, here are some choices...but you'll have to see if they are good for your needs.

Since Sibelius is made by Avid, I would probably like to have a digi sound card (and it's never a bad thing to be able to use ProTools)
so I would probably say a Digi 002r. A RME Firewire 400 or 800 card would be superior but will not run PT....hmm There is also the Projectmix I/O which is a really nice card for the price and it's also a controler so you wouldn't be limited to 12 tracks...depending if you're sick of the Mackie...which Mackie is it? The onyx 1220? How many tracks do you usually work with?

As far as software, Sibelius seems to be the best choice for notation and I think you'll want to keep using it once it's UB BUT Logic Pro could also prove to be usefull for notation in some cases and will combine Midi, audio and notation really well. That's why I think it could be your best bet to complete Sibelius. Although Digital Performer is also really complete and cheaper...but much less user friendly...IMO Do you also do stuff with picture? Like movie scores, comercials, documentaries?

I'm a bit puzzled, don't you use a Midi controler or synth with keyboard? The 1080 is rackmount...if I am not mistaken. Pehaps think about getting one?

Anyhoo, that's what I can see for now. I hope I understood your needs correctly. Let me know what you think.

Here are a few links I've found for you:

Mac NN
Apple
Some teacher's opinion
I don't necessarily agree with all he says- particularly about DP, which I don't like- but still an interesting read
You can see what the score window looks like here

[analogika]

I'm going to have to disagree completely with Jean-Loup here.

Don't buy Logic Pro.

It's focus is production, NOT composition.

Sibelius is much more suited to the needs of the composer, without a bunch of extraneous bullshit you simply don't need. Logic is also seriously lacking in advanced notation features (Logic Platinum 4.8, oddly, had much better notational features).

Since all you need is a stereo out and a MIDI socket, there is absolutely no reason to ditch your Tascam USB interface.

[Jean-Loup]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I'm going to have to disagree completely with Jean-Loup here.

Don't buy Logic Pro.

It's focus is production, NOT composition.

Sibelius is much more suited to the needs of the composer, without a bunch of extraneous bullshit you simply don't need. Logic is also seriously lacking in advanced notation features (Logic Platinum 4.8, oddly, had much better notational features).

Since all you need is a stereo out and a MIDI socket, there is absolutely no reason to ditch your Tascam USB interface.

I think you didn't read me right:

Originally Posted by Jean-Loup

As far as software, Sibelius seems to be the best choice for notation and I think you'll want to keep using it once it's UB

As I said above in a previous post, I assume he will want to be doing some recording...though it will not be his main focus. In which case Logic or DP will be the best choice to integrate Midi, audio and notation. Not as a replacement for Sibelius.

If he only wants to do Midi, USB is plenty fast....but then why would he have a mixer? Cause he'll also be working with audio, no? In that case he needs a sound card...and at that point USB just won't cut it...neither will Sibelius. Thus my Logic recommendation.