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osij2is · Jun 11, 2007, 08:18 AM

Since the new MacBook Pros have the nVidia 8600 graphics cards, would it be safe to presume that sometime in the near future, the Mac Pro would be getting an upgrade as well?

I've hesitated on a purchase as the X1900 is not my idea of a gaming card, in spite of its fair performance. Waiting on an nVidia 8xxx series would be well worth it for me. Any one know anything about this?

cgc · Jun 11, 2007, 11:49 AM

The video card options Mac users has is terrible. While the 7300GT in my MacPro is ok for older games, I've got four cores, 3GB memory, SATA, etc. and still get bad FPS on new games.

I'm anticipating new graphics cards, maybe Apple was waiting for a reason but I'd love it for third-party vendors to make Mac graphics cards.

P · Jun 11, 2007, 01:29 PM

ATi has done that in the past - more likely that we get new BTO options, though. Might happen now that the keynote is over, actually, with all the talk of games.

Phuncz · Jun 11, 2007, 02:05 PM

I was wondering: since the MacBook Pro has a 8600 card, does that mean the 8600 could also be installed through a custom kext on a MacPro ? In theory it should.

newtech · Jun 11, 2007, 03:16 PM

I doubt you will see any new graphics cards supported on desktop macs until 10.4.10 is released, it takes more than a .kext for a graphic card to be usable. The 8600m EFI firmware may not be applicable to a regular PCI-e graphic card without some modifications.

osij2is · Jun 11, 2007, 11:57 PM

Game performance is affected the following parts (ordered from most to least important):

1. Video graphics card power (image processing - typically pipeline quantity and bit depth with memory size and clock speed)
2. RAM (textures and swap space)
3. CPU (raw processing - AI, coordinates, etc.)

Seeing as how great the rest of the Mac Pro parts are, (xeons, ram and such) I hate to see them throw in a half-assed video card. If Apple wants a piece of the gaming market (which is a good idea) they're going to have to pursue the enthusiast market for video cards.

I'm not saying they have to support all PCI-express cards, but if they could just include 4-5 choices to tackle all the markets, it would be in their best interests to appeal to everyone. The home/business/gaming/video-visual markets could all be addressed. 3 types of cards (the 7300, X1900 and the Quadro) don't exactly adhere to the gaming market.

On the one hand, the Mac Pro itself is overkill for gaming type machines. Most gamers only need 1 CPU (dual-core is more then enough) as most games themselves aren't multi threaded (yet). The iMacs are not ideal either and the Mac mini also comes up short. So to hear this new direction/focus is great, but their current product line doesn't reflect this focus (yet).

Which leads me to believe that if the first cards DO appear, I imagine the Mac Pros getting the 8xxx series from nVidia, but I have no real evidence to support this. All of this discussion really affects my purchasing decision. It's not a matter of IF I'll buy a Mac Pro, but WHEN.

Am I just being delusional?

bballe336 · Jun 12, 2007, 05:35 AM

No, you're making perfect sense. The mac pro graphics options are a joke, the laptops have faster graphics than the desktops now, it's really pathetic.

dn15 · Jun 13, 2007, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by bballe336

No, you're making perfect sense. The mac pro graphics options are a joke, the laptops have faster graphics than the desktops now, it's really pathetic.

And here I am perfectly happy with the Intel GMA 950 in my MacBook...

osij2is · Jun 13, 2007, 03:38 PM

Well, before I even realized it.. Slashdot made a more interesting point:

"We've been here before. I've been here before. Waaaaaaaay back in 1999, id was right there at MacWorld, with Carmack talking about how rad the OS was, and demanding that a multi-button mouse arrive. And this was Mac OS 9! People applauded. Those, like myself, who covered the Macintosh gaming world for a living saw a bright future ahead. EA wasn't there, but Activision was, and Aspyr was bringing Madden to the Mac anyway. MacSoft was bringing Unreal Tournament over, and StarCraft was still on the Mac, and still kicking ass. And then, nothing happened. There was a little while there when Mac game companies were expanding, and the best PC to Mac game porting house, Westlake Interactive, was barely able to keep up with all the demand for its services ... By 2001, the brief flash that was the Mac game boom was gone."

I was not a mac fan at all back in 1999 (I converted at OSX). So.. NOW, where does this leave us?
If history repeats itself (or rather, is doomed to be repeated), does this change our video card expectations or should we anticipate something different, for better or worse?

Aegis · Jun 14, 2007, 04:11 AM

Well, wether OSX gets the games or not, Apple has to realize that many people still want to use Boot Camp for their gaming. So my expectations haven't changed. It is getting sad at this point though.

Phuncz · Jun 14, 2007, 06:51 AM

There are more people using the Mac Pro for 3D applications than games. The market for Mac gaming is low and most of it is already covered by id Software and Blizzard Software.

osij2is · Jun 14, 2007, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Phuncz

There are more people using the Mac Pro for 3D applications than games. The market for Mac gaming is low and most of it is already covered by id Software and Blizzard Software.

<rant>

No one else finds it sad that we (consumers) have to rely on specific manufacturers (id and Blizzard) for all our gaming? I mean, the _thought_ of just having to purchase another Windows OS just to play games to me is absurd.

I was always under the impression that the market determines what would eventually happen, but these days, I think corporate america is setting the tone and we as users/consumers basically have to put up with this crap. So we devise these crazy schemes and techniques just to get something that we want that could/should exist.

Just look all around and it's disheartening. People want digital music and tv content. DRM to the corporate rescue (and what a poor job). VoIP anyone? Oh yeah, AT&T will soon charge for QoS. Wow. How awesome is that? Not only do you pay for the connection and the rate, now you have to pay for priority! Clearly, everyone has been dying for this feature for years. Everywhere I begin to look, it's looking like the next decade will be nothing more then a series of corporate/legal headaches.

</rant>

Leonard · Jun 14, 2007, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by osij2is

<rant>

No one else finds it sad that we (consumers) have to rely on specific manufacturers (id and Blizzard) for all our gaming? I mean, the _thought_ of just having to purchase another Windows OS just to play games to me is absurd.

That list was lacking the 2 LARGEST Mac game publishers, as well there a few other smaller game companies.

He forgot to mention Aspyr and Macsoft, for one, which probably account for 75% of the games. He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about if he can't even name the largest Mac game publishers. Then of course there are the smaller Mac gaming companies of Freeverse, Feral, etc.

And I'd hate to tell you, but many of us may not buy our Macs for games, BUT we sure use them for games. So let's cut out the BS about Macs not having a market for games. If they didn't have a market, Mac game makers wouldn't exist.

</rant>

osij2is · Jun 14, 2007, 11:02 AM

I never said the Mac doesn't have a market for games. It has already a big market for games, but I don't see a lot of publishers making OSX compatibile games at all. I don't give a crap about the game publishers themselves. I care about the games FIRST. Yes, Aspyr and Macsoft do have a nice collection of games, but I don't purchase games based on the publisher. I play games that I think will be fun, entertaining and worth the cash. Luckily, WoW, warcraft 3 happen to be OSX happy.

So while some Mac owners may not buy your Mac for games, why should I plop $3k+ for a machine that can technically play the game, but software manufacturers won't bother to make? Granted support for games has gotten much better in the past few years, why should there be any discrepency anymore since the switch to Intel?

I'm not knocking on Apple whatsoever, but I am pissed at game manufacturers for the fact that I have to be leery of new games that may or may not be supported on OSX still sucks. Right now, I'm really hoping for Half-Life 2 on the mac sometime, but so far, there's no support. What about Team Fortress that is supposed to come out soon? Mac OSX support? Who knows!

So in addition to buying a brand new machine that's perfectly capable of playing x86 games, I have to resort to buying a Windows XP license ($120+ or so?) to dual-boot just to play the game and then I'll have to deal with the shoddy video card options. If Apple declares gamers are now a target audience (such as they did at WWDC) which is fantastic, something has to change here.

Please bear in mind, I WANT to DITCH my stupid PC. But because of these trivial game issues, I can't do so at the moment.

P · Jun 14, 2007, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by osij2is

Well, before I even realized it.. Slashdot made a more interesting point:

"We've been here before. I've been here before. Waaaaaaaay back in 1999, id was right there at MacWorld, with Carmack talking about how rad the OS was, and demanding that a multi-button mouse arrive. And this was Mac OS 9! People applauded. Those, like myself, who covered the Macintosh gaming world for a living saw a bright future ahead. EA wasn't there, but Activision was, and Aspyr was bringing Madden to the Mac anyway. MacSoft was bringing Unreal Tournament over, and StarCraft was still on the Mac, and still kicking ass. And then, nothing happened. There was a little while there when Mac game companies were expanding, and the best PC to Mac game porting house, Westlake Interactive, was barely able to keep up with all the demand for its services ... By 2001, the brief flash that was the Mac game boom was gone."

I was not a mac fan at all back in 1999 (I converted at OSX). So.. NOW, where does this leave us?
If history repeats itself (or rather, is doomed to be repeated), does this change our video card expectations or should we anticipate something different, for better or worse?

Last time, the boom was driven by Apple moving from Quickdraw 3D RAVE to OpenGL. That decreased porting costs and made it profitable to port games to the Mac. It gradually ended as more and more developers moved to DirectX, negating the benefit from OpenGL. This time, the boom is driven by Apple's move to Intel, once again decreases porting costs. The difference is that PCs aren't going to moving away from the x86 ISA any time soon. Only way Mac gaming dies back down again is if PC gaming dies, as has been widely predicted for more than a decade but hasn't happened yet.

The trend is towards more porting between various consoles and platforms to offset development costs. That trend doesn't look like it will end any time soon.

Leonard · Jun 14, 2007, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by osij2is

I never said the Mac doesn't have a market for games. It has already a big market for games, but I don't see a lot of publishers making OSX compatibile games at all. I don't give a crap about the game publishers themselves. I care about the games FIRST. Yes, Aspyr and Macsoft do have a nice collection of games, but I don't purchase games based on the publisher. I play games that I think will be fun, entertaining and worth the cash. Luckily, WoW, warcraft 3 happen to be OSX happy.

Well just because you don't like their games, doesn't mean everybody does. Those games make money. I may not likes SIMS, but it makes money. So does Quake 4, UT2004, Halo (even though it's old it's still selling), the STar Wars games, Age of Empires. WOW isn't the ONLY game on the block (These WOW gamers seem to have a 1 track mind and think of nothing but WOW).

osij2is · Jun 14, 2007, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Leonard

Well just because you don't like their games, doesn't mean everybody does. Those games make money. I may not likes SIMS, but it makes money. So does Quake 4, UT2004, Halo (even though it's old it's still selling), the STar Wars games, Age of Empires. WOW isn't the ONLY game on the block (These WOW gamers seem to have a 1 track mind and think of nothing but WOW).

Speaking of one track minds...
Did you not get my point? I'm agreeing with you that there is a selection. I agree with you that not everyone likes each others games. I'm trying to illustrate that the mac vs pc gaming issue should have been over by now. I'm asking for games to be ported or even built on the mac and the pc.

Even though it costs more money for gaming companies to build for the mac now, in the long run, everyone wins. Businesses will have access to broader and deeper markets, thus consumers have more options. But it hasn't been like this. It's still the monolithic PC vs. Mac and the gaming market is enormous enough for both. No matter what, more games built for the PC and Mac ONLY futhers Apple's OSX.

Which leads us all the way back to the point of this thread: Mac Video Cards or the lack thereof. I was asking for people's thoughts, opinions or knowledge of how Apple might improve their video cards within their product lines. But I guess some Mac users have a 1 track mind and like things the way they are. Or maybe you just like flame wars.

Phuncz · Jun 17, 2007, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Leonard

That list was lacking the 2 LARGEST Mac game publishers, as well there a few other smaller game companies.

That's true, but I wasn't mentioning publishers/porters. I was talking game studio's who design and release a game simultaneously for Mac and PC.

Originally Posted by Leonard

He forgot to mention Aspyr and Macsoft, for one, which probably account for 75% of the games. He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about if he can't even name the largest Mac game publishers. Then of course there are the smaller Mac gaming companies of Freeverse, Feral, etc.

For one, I have a (nick)name. You're quite fast at judging someones knowledge because the info doesn't cover the aspects you think are most important. As stated above, I wasn't talking about publishers or porters. id Software isn't even a publisher. Most of their games are published by Activision and in the past by GT Interactive.

Originally Posted by Leonard

And I'd hate to tell you, but many of us may not buy our Macs for games, BUT we sure use them for games. So let's cut out the BS about Macs not having a market for games. If they didn't have a market, Mac game makers wouldn't exist.

There is a market but it is very small. A lot of Apple computers are used professionally only. Graphics design, 3D design, video editing, sound editing, sound authoring, layout editing, server apps, etc etc. Most people buying a Mac Pro use it mainly for that. Most PC's arent bought for games but they are also used a lot for them. As I have seen a lot of game studios going down the last few years, it's a miracle Mac gamers still have a decent choice and support for games.

Lava Lamp Freak · Jun 18, 2007, 08:47 PM

Why don't ATI & Nvidia release their release video cards for Mac? Is it just because of the small market, or does Apple have it locked down?

:dragonflypro: · Jun 18, 2007, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Lava Lamp Freak

Why don't ATI & Nvidia release their release video cards for Mac? Is it just because of the small market, or does Apple have it locked down?

That is a good question…

ATI comes along and usually has an upgrade for the 'previous' config… like the PCI X1900 G5 version…

My guess is as long as the 1900XT is the crd that goes in the machine (which means Apple is stocking it) you will not see it in other retail areas.

Hoping the intel architecture changes all that.... still hoping.

P · Jun 19, 2007, 08:41 AM

ATi does, on occasion. They pick which to release because they have to make a special firmware for them and make sure that the current Mac drivers support that model.

nVidia doesn't sell boards to anyone - they sell chips to people who will manufacture the boards. Right now, the only MAc customer is Apple itself. There have been rumors that one of the major nVidia manufacturers will make boards for the MAc as well, but so far nothing. The Mac Pro is a too small part of the Mac market for the to bother.

Phuncz · Jun 19, 2007, 04:27 PM

Not only the firmware is different but in most cases the flashrom chip also has to be replaced by a bigger one. Also, the market for this is a lot smaller than the PC market because there are only a very few Mac Pro systems (that can use the card). So prices will be high and interest (for the manufacturer to make it) will be low.

Also, releasing a card that's not a BTO option requires Apple to make working drivers, as I doubt the ATI/nVidia driver team will do that. And that means supporting a lot more than they want. This is something against Apple's filosophy as it permits more problems to arise and more resources (less optimization) to the system.