[Jeffro283]

Hello,

I am a computer graphics student, concentrating mainly with three-dimensional modeling and animation. I have also been a dedicated PC user my entire life.

Recently, I took a class in the art department at my school, which ran solely on Mac computers. I really enjoyed the operating system, and I need a new computer, so I am thinking on purchasing a Mac.

However, I am not exactly sure what would be the best for me. I use programs such as 3-D Studio Max, Primere Pro, InDesign, Photoshop, Illustrator, Maya, etc. I have heard that 3-D Studio Max does not run well with Boot Camp, and if that issue is still not resolved, this could be a problem. Does anyone know?

I have configured a Mac Pro, and here is what I have thus far:

-Upgraded to 2GB of RAM
-Upgradted to the ATI x1900

That is about all I changed.

My budget is around $3500, with no software purchased, so keep that in mind when specifying upgrades.

First question: Would anyone recommend any other hardware upgrades? As I understand it, I will need more RAM, but I am under a certain budget. This is a computer that I would like to last a while, and I know I can upgrade it, but I want the opinion of others.

Second question: Is there any cheaper display than the Cinema display, that does the same thing? After all is said and done, without a monitor, this computer comes to about $2900. If I can get a cheaper display (i.e. one that is not $500), then that would be great.

Will Apple likely be upgrading the current Mac Pros anytime soon? I would rather not purchase a brand new computer just to have it be trumped by something newer and better.

I plan on buying one of the CS3 Packages and Vista for Boot Camp from my school, so that they are cheaper.

Also, if you suggest anything technical, or any types of parts/computer lingo that an average Joe wouldn't understand, let me know what you mean. I am usually pretty good about knowing things, but when it comes to graphics cards specs/RAM specs/different brands and how they function, I am kinda clueless.

I posted this a while back, but some of the responses were tailored to that specific time. Any new feedback would be great! I have added basically all the information that I feel necessary. Thanks!

Drew

[mduell]

Don't buy extra RAM (or disk) from Apple. Buy the base model with the X1900 and buy RAM/disk elsewhere.

Buy a Dell LCD display.

The Mac Pro is overdue for an update to the base spec and upgrade options for the graphics card (year+ old, current cards are 100% faster), memory, and disk.

[Biest]

From RAM prices, etc. you can have a look here

Newegg.com - Buy Computer Parts, PC Components, Laptop Computers, Digital Cameras and more!

or at

Memory upgrades, graphics cards, flash media, and usb storage at Crucial.com

[Jeffro283]

To both of you:

-Is there any specific RAM that I should be looking at? I would happily order other parts from different places, and I know Newegg is a trustworthy place.

-Any specific Dell Monitors that you would recommend? The Apple ones are so sexy though! It would hurt me not to get one, but if there are some that display at the same quality, then I would be happy to go that route.

Also, I have an 80gb external Firewire drive that I would use as a scratch disk, so I can eliminate that as a need.

[Biest]

As far as I can remember the Dell's and the Apple use the same panel (correct me if i am wrong)... Since graphic applications needs a a lot of real estate I am guessing either a 22" oder 24" would be best (sry i don't know the current prices on those)

Crucia is the best RAM you can buy for the Mac. It is the commercial version of the RAM used in Macs. Since you get 1GB Stock, you should go with

Newegg.com - Crucial 1GB (2 x 512MB) DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) ECC Fully Buffered Dual Channel Kit Memory for Apple Server & Mac Pro Model CT2KIT6472AP667 - Retail (check price at crucial themselves)

[Jeffro283]

Sounds awesome!

I totally trust your opinion, but I would like to see if there is any other advice before I think on buying it. I also have not ordered the computer yet.

Should I get the extended Apple warranty as well?

[ninahagen]

You will need way, way more RAM than 2GB. We are graphics pros, and we regularly tax our 8GB of RAM multitasking in CS Photoshop & Illustrator, and 3D modeling can be much more demanding. I would think a minimum for you would be something like 4GB to start, adding chips in pairs as you go. If you get into hardcore modeling, you will probably end up needing at least 8GB, maybe more...depends in part mow much you multi-task with other heavy apps. Because of your budget, you will have to go with 4 x 1GB (instead of 2 x 2GB), but since the Mac Pro has 8 RAM slots, going with 4 x 1GB will use half, which will limit you to 8GB more, in case you find yourself wanting to max out.

[Biest]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

Sounds awesome!

I totally trust your opinion, but I would like to see if there is any other advice before I think on buying it. I also have not ordered the computer yet.

Should I get the extended Apple warranty as well?

I personally would, but that is just from experience. Maybe you should also check around how much the video people recommend (as the poster before me has). You might want to wait since most of the line ups hardware hasn't changed in a while (i personally don't consider the addition of a CPU option as an update for the masses)

[Jeffro283]

Thanks for the input!

I had realized that I would need much more than 2GB of RAM. I am currently working on a 3.0 ghz Pentium 4 Laptop with a decent graphics card, but the computer is now 2 years old, and overheats constantly. When I have both 3-D Studio Max and Photoshop open, the computer also likes to crap out.

I would like to go with the base model Mac Pro then, and upgrade the RAM to 4gb. Would that be the best option? I would also probably like to upgrade from the base graphics card. Would this be wise?

[ninahagen]

First thing is, as a student you will be eligible for education pricing. Here in Japan you have to prove you are a student... by showing or faxing in an ID, or registering online with your student ID... anyway, you will save significantly like 5~7% I think, making your $3500 buget more like $3700 worth on the main web page (standard pricing).

If I had your needs and your budget, I would buy:
Mac Pro 2.66 Ghz Quad-core. Most bang for the buck. ($2499)
2 x 2GB RAM chips from Wintec ($439 at newegg) Newegg.com - WINTEC 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) ECC Fully Buffered Dual Channel Kit Memory for Apple Server & Mac Pro Model 36510077K - Retail
ATI Radeon ($249)
That puts you at $3189, which in the education store will be more like $3000. I personally would go for the 20" apple flat panel at around $570 education price, simply because Apple displays are so nicely designed, and for a design oriented person that is worth a small stretch. That puts you $70 over budget, but with maximum RAM expandability.
You asked about Apple care — definately! But that will add like $300, so now you are at $3870.
If you have to save somewhere, I would get 4 x 1GB Crucial memory (which most people prefer to the Kingston)... same amount, but uses 4 of the 8 memory slots. Plus I have heard a very slight speed penalty, though I suspect you won't be able to detect it. That would save you about $270 or so, So then you are back down to $3600 with Apple care. Also, with this system you will actually have 5 GB, because the 2 x 512MB are included (crap, that means 6 of 8 memory slots gone). Be sure to post a thread to ask which order to put them in (in the riser).

[Biest]

Originally Posted by ninahagen 

First thing is, as a student you will be eligible for education pricing. Here in Japan you have to prove you are a student... by showing or faxing in an ID, or registering online with your student ID... anyway, you will save significantly like 5~7% I think, making your $3500 buget more like $3700 worth on the main web page (standard pricing).

If I had your needs and your budget, I would buy:
Mac Pro 2.66 Ghz Quad-core. Most bang for the buck. ($2499)
2 x 2GB RAM chips from Wintec ($439 at newegg) Newegg.com - WINTEC 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) ECC Fully Buffered Dual Channel Kit Memory for Apple Server & Mac Pro Model 36510077K - Retail
ATI Radeon ($249)
That puts you at $3189, which in the education store will be more like $3000. I personally would go for the 20" apple flat panel at around $570 education price, simply because Apple displays are so nicely designed, and for a design oriented person that is worth a small stretch. That puts you $70 over budget, but with maximum RAM expandability.
You asked about Apple care — definately! But that will add like $300, so now you are at $3870.
If you have to save somewhere, I would get 4 x 1GB Crucial memory (which most people prefer to the Kingston)... same amount, but uses 4 of the 8 memory slots. Plus I have heard a very slight speed penalty, though I suspect you won't be able to detect it. That would save you about $270 or so, So then you are back down to $3600 with Apple care. Also, with this system you will actually have 5 GB, because the 2 x 512MB are included (crap, that means 6 of 8 memory slots gone). Be sure to post a thread to ask which order to put them in (in the riser).

I think 6 out 8 isn't that bad... You can also always sell the RAM, so you make some money on the side.

[Jeffro283]

I will likely do that then!

So basically, that would mean upgrade the graphics, possibly the processor, buy the RAM elsewhere, and get the Apple display.

Anyone else have any insight into this issue?

[ninahagen]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

I will likely do that then!

So basically, that would mean upgrade the graphics, possibly the processor, buy the RAM elsewhere, and get the Apple display.

Anyone else have any insight into this issue?

Hi Jeffro283...
the processor FOR CERTAIN... the Quad 2.0 is a bad value... the 3.0 puts you over budget. That leaves the 2.66... damn fast, only a little extra. That is the sweet spot.

If you want to spend another $200~300, you can add 2 of these hardrives, both in the smallest size.

WD Enterprise Drives Overview

One for your system disc (all software here), one for a scratch disc (Photoshop really flourishes with that). The Apple drive that comes with it is where you put all your files.
nina

[kretara]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

I will likely do that then!

So basically, that would mean upgrade the graphics, possibly the processor, buy the RAM elsewhere, and get the Apple display.

Anyone else have any insight into this issue?

A few changes that I would make:
Get a 24" Dell display for $600 (through the Dell small business link -- they never check to see if you are a business or not). That is $50 more than the Apple 20" display with edu discount. Those extra pixels will really help out in the end. I find the high end Dell displays to be slightly inferior to Apple displays (I believe that it is in the backlight), but not inferior enough to justify the extra $$ that Apple charges. Just make sure to calibrate the display.

I would add in $80 for a copy of Parallels. Being able to run OS X and windows at the same time could really speed up your workflow and might allow you to put off software purchases for a while.

You can put off purchasing Applecare until the computer is approaching 1 year old. This will save you $200 initially and will only cost you $200 (edu) when you buy it.

[shinji]

You can get 4 gb from crucial for $400 in change. I use my Mac Pro primarily for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Illustrator, and I recently got into Panic - Coda - One-Window Web Development for Mac OS X

And I'm using a Samsung 225bw, the 226bw is out now and offhand I think it's ~ $300 now. I'm happy with it, though if you are doing CMYK print work or whatever, the color accuracy certainly isn't going to be Eizo quality.

I paid for Applecare too, though I haven't had to use it for anything yet, knock on wood.

[ninahagen]

Originally Posted by kretara 

I find the high end Dell displays to be slightly inferior to Apple displays

Exactly.

[/QUOTE] not inferior enough to justify the extra $$ that Apple charges. Just make sure to calibrate the display.[/QUOTE]

Tough call. I like screen real estate too, but would buy a larger Apple (slightly used or refurb) before I bought a Dell. I need Apple's clean lines.

[/QUOTE]I would add in $80 for a copy of Parallels.[/QUOTE]

Amen!

[/QUOTE]Being able to run OS X and windows at the same time could really speed up your workflow and might allow you to put off software purchases for a while.[/QUOTE]

The sweetest thing of all is copying and pasting freely from Windows app into an OSX app. Forget Bootcamp.

[Jeffro283]

A few changes that I would make:
Get a 24" Dell display for $600 (through the Dell small business link -- they never check to see if you are a business or not). That is $50 more than the Apple 20" display with edu discount. Those extra pixels will really help out in the end. I find the high end Dell displays to be slightly inferior to Apple displays (I believe that it is in the backlight), but not inferior enough to justify the extra $$ that Apple charges. Just make sure to calibrate the display.

I would add in $80 for a copy of Parallels. Being able to run OS X and windows at the same time could really speed up your workflow and might allow you to put off software purchases for a while.

You can put off purchasing Applecare until the computer is approaching 1 year old. This will save you $200 initially and will only cost you $200 (edu) when you buy it.

Thanks for the information. I will likely still buy the Apple Monitor, seeing as I hate Dell and have had Monitors through them go bad before. I appreciate your thoughts on those, but I would rather stick with the higher quality than the extra real estate.

And how exactly does this Parallels work? That sounds VERY interesting, and if I can run Windows and OSX at the same time, that would be a huge benifit.

Hi Jeffro283...
the processor FOR CERTAIN... the Quad 2.0 is a bad value... the 3.0 puts you over budget. That leaves the 2.66... damn fast, only a little extra. That is the sweet spot.

If you want to spend another $200~300, you can add 2 of these hardrives, both in the smallest size.

WD Enterprise Drives Overview

One for your system disc (all software here), one for a scratch disc (Photoshop really flourishes with that). The Apple drive that comes with it is where you put all your files.
nina

I believe I already had the 2.66...I thought that was the default, or was it a dual core? Anyway, I will take your advice.

Would an external Firewire drive be good enough as a scratch disk? I have used it before as one, because I had to, but yeah.
Also, what exactly is the purpose of a scratch disk? I had always assumed that they were to hold render files and keep your disk cleaned up, but if I am wrong, let me know.

You can get 4 gb from crucial for $400 in change. I use my Mac Pro primarily for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Illustrator, and I recently got into Panic - Coda - One-Window Web Development for Mac OS X

And I'm using a Samsung 225bw, the 226bw is out now and offhand I think it's ~ $300 now. I'm happy with it, though if you are doing CMYK print work or whatever, the color accuracy certainly isn't going to be Eizo quality.

I paid for Applecare too, though I haven't had to use it for anything yet, knock on wood.

Thanks for the information. I will look into that, and Samsung displays as well.

Also, if you are suggesting any computer parts not ALREADY installed in the Apple when I purchase it, how difficult will these parts be to install? I assume not too difficult, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

[kretara]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

And how exactly does this Parallels work? That sounds VERY interesting, and if I can run Windows and OSX at the same time, that would be a huge benifit.

You can think of Parallels as running a virtual copy of windows (or Linux or whatever). This allows you to be 'running' more than one OS at the same time. I think that it works very well. I have NO idea how well Maya (or some of the other high end programs) will work in a virtual environment. I do know that photoshop works just fine.
You DO see more RAM being used when you are using parallels, but you are running 2 OS's at once so one should expect more RAM to be used and for the entire system to be slightly more sluggish. In my last job I use parallels quite a bit and it did not adversely impact my productivity.

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

Would an external Firewire drive be good enough as a scratch disk? I have used it before as one, because I had to, but yeah.

You certainly can use a firewire drive as a scratch disk, but you would see more of a performance boost if you used an internal drive. You don't have to use a 500GB drive, you could use a > $100 250GB drive as your scratch disk.

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

I will look into that, and Samsung displays as well.

Definitely do that. Samsung makes very good LCD's. I am using a 941BW (19" widescreen) right now and I love it. I think that my Samsung is far superior to the 20" display in the G5 iMac I had at my last job.

[Biest]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

A few changes that I would make:
Get a 24" Dell display for $600 (through the Dell small business link -- they never check to see if you are a business or not). That is $50 more than the Apple 20" display with edu discount. Those extra pixels will really help out in the end. I find the high end Dell displays to be slightly inferior to Apple displays (I believe that it is in the backlight), but not inferior enough to justify the extra $$ that Apple charges. Just make sure to calibrate the display.

I would add in $80 for a copy of Parallels. Being able to run OS X and windows at the same time could really speed up your workflow and might allow you to put off software purchases for a while.

You can put off purchasing Applecare until the computer is approaching 1 year old. This will save you $200 initially and will only cost you $200 (edu) when you buy it.

Thanks for the information. I will likely still buy the Apple Monitor, seeing as I hate Dell and have had Monitors through them go bad before. I appreciate your thoughts on those, but I would rather stick with the higher quality than the extra real estate.

And how exactly does this Parallels work? That sounds VERY interesting, and if I can run Windows and OSX at the same time, that would be a huge benifit.

Hi Jeffro283...
the processor FOR CERTAIN... the Quad 2.0 is a bad value... the 3.0 puts you over budget. That leaves the 2.66... damn fast, only a little extra. That is the sweet spot.

If you want to spend another $200~300, you can add 2 of these hardrives, both in the smallest size.

WD Enterprise Drives Overview

One for your system disc (all software here), one for a scratch disc (Photoshop really flourishes with that). The Apple drive that comes with it is where you put all your files.
nina

I believe I already had the 2.66...I thought that was the default, or was it a dual core? Anyway, I will take your advice.

Would an external Firewire drive be good enough as a scratch disk? I have used it before as one, because I had to, but yeah.
Also, what exactly is the purpose of a scratch disk? I had always assumed that they were to hold render files and keep your disk cleaned up, but if I am wrong, let me know.

You can get 4 gb from crucial for $400 in change. I use my Mac Pro primarily for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Illustrator, and I recently got into Panic - Coda - One-Window Web Development for Mac OS X

And I'm using a Samsung 225bw, the 226bw is out now and offhand I think it's ~ $300 now. I'm happy with it, though if you are doing CMYK print work or whatever, the color accuracy certainly isn't going to be Eizo quality.

I paid for Applecare too, though I haven't had to use it for anything yet, knock on wood.

Thanks for the information. I will look into that, and Samsung displays as well.

Also, if you are suggesting any computer parts not ALREADY installed in the Apple when I purchase it, how difficult will these parts be to install? I assume not too difficult, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

The question is what you want to upgrade... RAM is easy. The RAM slots are located on two removable boards, so you can just take out the board and upgrade the RAM. HDDs have bays into which you screw the HDDs and then simply slide them back in. PCI-Cards as usually. Everything else gets a bit more tricky.

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by Biest 

The question is what you want to upgrade... RAM is easy. The RAM slots are located on two removable boards, so you can just take out the board and upgrade the RAM. HDDs have bays into which you screw the HDDs and then simply slide them back in. PCI-Cards as usually. Everything else gets a bit more tricky.

I believe that all I would be updating outside of Apple would be the RAM and possibly HD. Both of those seem easy, and I am not terrible at this kinda stuff (I guess). Really, the most that I have done is to install a new video card on my old computer, or to install a Firewire card, both of which were pretty simple. Thanks for the info.

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by kretara 

You can think of Parallels as running a virtual copy of windows (or Linux or whatever). This allows you to be 'running' more than one OS at the same time. I think that it works very well. I have NO idea how well Maya (or some of the other high end programs) will work in a virtual environment. I do know that photoshop works just fine.
You DO see more RAM being used when you are using parallels, but you are running 2 OS's at once so one should expect more RAM to be used and for the entire system to be slightly more sluggish. In my last job I use parallels quite a bit and it did not adversely impact my productivity.



You certainly can use a firewire drive as a scratch disk, but you would see more of a performance boost if you used an internal drive. You don't have to use a 500GB drive, you could use a > $100 250GB drive as your scratch disk.




Definitely do that. Samsung makes very good LCD's. I am using a 941BW (19" widescreen) right now and I love it. I think that my Samsung is far superior to the 20" display in the G5 iMac I had at my last job.

Thanks for the insight. I am definatly gonna look into an extra HD then. Any specific models anywhere that you would suggest? I would probably wanna spend less than $100 on it, maybe somewhere in the range of $75. If all else fails, I can use my external for now.

And I will definatly check into Paralells. That would be something that I could really use. How much RAM does your system have? I hope that with 4gb of RAM, I could easily be running both OS's and 3-D Studio Max...but we shall see.

[shinji]

Newegg.com - SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD501LJ 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Newegg.com - SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD321KJ 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

for hd's, nice price.

I don't do any 3d but I'm skeptical 3dsmax in Parallels is going to work out well...it might, maybe try VMware instead, but really 3d apps seem like more of a boot camp thing at the moment.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

However, I am not exactly sure what would be the best for me. I use programs such as 3-D Studio Max, Primere Pro, InDesign, Photoshop, Illustrator, Maya, etc. I have heard that 3-D Studio Max does not run well with Boot Camp, and if that issue is still not resolved, this could be a problem. Does anyone know?

3D Studio Max should run great in Boot Camp. When running in Boot Camp, your Mac is absolutely identical to any PC. There is no reason it should run badly.

I'd go with VMWare Fusion instead of Parallels.

[Jeffro283]

I don't do any 3d but I'm skeptical 3dsmax in Parallels is going to work out well...it might, maybe try VMware instead, but really 3d apps seem like more of a boot camp thing at the moment.

I had been very skeptical that I could get a Mac regardless, just because of the Boot Camp 3-D Studio Max issues, but hopefully those are resolved. I have heard nothing of it, but we will see.

It seems like there would be enough memory there, but it would be just the same as running on my current laptop (which is teh suk).

I might be able to mail one of my professors, and see what they know.

[shinji]

Well the reason why it might be crap wouldn't be so much about RAM, it'd be 3d acceleration issues with the graphics driver.

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by goMac 

3D Studio Max should run great in Boot Camp. When running in Boot Camp, your Mac is absolutely identical to any PC. There is no reason it should run badly.

I'd go with VMWare Fusion instead of Parallels.

Hadn't there been issues with the lisence on 3DS where, when using it, you would have to validate or something? And then, every time you log back onto Windows, it asks you to reactivate? I am not sure if this is still a problem, but I remember hearing about it somewhere before.

It wasn't a performance issue, rather it was a lisence issue (I think). Then again, it could be cleared up, which would be peachy.

Another thing that affects this...I will likely have to lisence the newest version of 3DS Max when I go to school, and possibly there is no problem with that one, if there is even a problem existing any longer?

Maybe I am making this up, but hopefully not.

[Jeffro283]

Can anyone confirm/deny this for sure?

[vertigociel]

Have you ever tried using blender? It's an extremely capable open source (with OS X version) 3D modeling/rendering program. My high school digital arts teacher used to use 3DS Max/Maya, but he tried blender, and never went back. I believe it has most, if not all the features of 3DS or Maya, and is under very active development (new version 2-3 times a year).

As for monitors, have you tried looking at the Apple refurbs?

[mduell]

Comparison of 3d tools - CGWiki is a good rundown of the limitations of Blender compared to commercial modeling apps.

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by vertigociel 

Have you ever tried using blender? It's an extremely capable open source (with OS X version) 3D modeling/rendering program. My high school digital arts teacher used to use 3DS Max/Maya, but he tried blender, and never went back. I believe it has most, if not all the features of 3DS or Maya, and is under very active development (new version 2-3 times a year).

As for monitors, have you tried looking at the Apple refurbs?

I have actually been itching to try Blender, but as I am on Dial-Up all summer, it gets rather difficult to download anything. When I go back to school in the fall, I plan on downloading and trying Blender. It lacks some of the features that I will need, but I would still like to try it out. Thanks for the info. I had no idea it was updated so often.

Also, I will check out Apple refurb monitors. I had thought that I had looked at them, but I cannot recall anything outstanding. I will check again today.

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Comparison of 3d tools - CGWiki is a good rundown of the limitations of Blender compared to commercial modeling apps.

Thanks for this! I had no idea that this information was out there! Thanks a ton...Just shows that Blender is one of the best, even though it is free.

[Jeffro283]

I have a couple more questions regarding this upcoming purchase...

First, can I mix and match RAM? For instance, say I would like to buy 2 gigs of the WinTEC DDR2 667 RAM, but to cut costs, I would like to get Crucial 553 RAM to fill out the rest of the 4 gigs. Would this work? I don't know much about RAM, so if not, that sucks.

Edit: How much of a performance hit will I take from using the cheaper RAM?

Also, I had looked into this monitor from Dell, which got pretty good reviews...Home & Home Office: UltraSharp 2007WFP 20-inch Widescreen Flat Panel LCD Monitor with Height Adjustable Stand
Does anyone know anything about this specific monitor? I had also looked at a Samsung 226BW 22" Monitor, so if anyone can provide insight into those, that would be great.

The main reason I am looking into these options is to cut costs as much as possible.

[kretara]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

I have a couple more questions regarding this upcoming purchase...

First, can I mix and match RAM? For instance, say I would like to buy 2 gigs of the WinTEC DDR2 667 RAM, but to cut costs, I would like to get Crucial 553 RAM to fill out the rest of the 4 gigs. Would this work? I don't know much about RAM, so if not, that sucks.

Edit: How much of a performance hit will I take from using the cheaper RAM?

As long as you are installing matched (RAM of the same type, size and config) pairs of RAM, the manufacturer should make little difference.
That being said. There is quite a bit of RAM out there that is not up to spec (ie. selling lower spec RAM as a higher spec level). This is where you will run into serious issues with OS X -- lots of kernal panics. OS X is very picky about RAM.
In the PM G5 that I had at work, there was RAM from 3 different manufacturers installed and everything ran fine.
I have never used wintec RAM, so I have no idea if they are any good.

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

Also, I had looked into this monitor from Dell, which got pretty good reviews...Home & Home Office: UltraSharp 2007WFP 20-inch Widescreen Flat Panel LCD Monitor with Height Adjustable Stand
Does anyone know anything about this specific monitor? I had also looked at a Samsung 226BW 22" Monitor, so if anyone can provide insight into those, that would be great.

The main reason I am looking into these options is to cut costs as much as possible.

I would go with the Samsung. Samsungs are very good monitors. Dell would be my second choice to a Samsung.
The question that you really need to be asking is: which monitor would best compliment the types of work that I am doing?
Does one color correct better than the other, does one show 'truer' color and 'truer' blacks and whites than the other?
I don't have an answer to those questions.

[ninahagen]

Rather than trying to save a few hundred bucks, why not try to find the best way to stretch and spend more. As a design student, this will be your most important possession and you will use it for years. Say you keep the machine around 5 years, and it has a resale value of $500 then. Subtracting that from your $3500 cost makes you total outlay $3000 over 60 months = $50 per month. Say you find a way to save $600 with cheap RAM and a lesser monitor, you are at much higher risk of kernel panics and RAM failure, and you have to work with a small, lower res, less color accurate screen every day. Let's say you decide the opposite, and add $1200 to your budget, allowing you to get a seperate scratch drive, more reliable RAM and a 20 inch Apple monitor. That costs you $20 a month. As a designer, you cannot skimp on your main design tool. Buy a few less clothes or keep the same old mountain bike a little longer. If you are serious about design, buy the very best thing you can afford, both performance-wise and aesthetically. You will be glad you did.

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by ninahagen 

Rather than trying to save a few hundred bucks, why not try to find the best way to stretch and spend more. As a design student, this will be your most important possession and you will use it for years. Say you keep the machine around 5 years, and it has a resale value of $500 then. Subtracting that from your $3500 cost makes you total outlay $3000 over 60 months = $50 per month. Say you find a way to save $600 with cheap RAM and a lesser monitor, you are at much higher risk of kernel panics and RAM failure, and you have to work with a small, lower res, less color accurate screen every day. Let's say you decide the opposite, and add $1200 to your budget, allowing you to get a seperate scratch drive, more reliable RAM and a 20 inch Apple monitor. That costs you $20 a month. As a designer, you cannot skimp on your main design tool. Buy a few less clothes or keep the same old mountain bike a little longer. If you are serious about design, buy the very best thing you can afford, both performance-wise and aesthetically. You will be glad you did.

While these are valid suggestions, and I appreciate it, the situation is a little more complex than that. I plan on spending whatever I need to, and getting quality parts, but I was just wondering what the difference was for the parts. If they had functioned the same as the Apple parts, it wouldn't make any sense to buy the Apple parts in the first place.

While adding $1200 to my budget would be nice, there is no way that would be possible, as I won't have $1200 more. The budget can fluxuate by about $200-300, but no more than that. Otherwise, I won't have the finances to cover what I need.

All this being said, I may have to just work with 3gb of RAM for the time being, as 4 GB of the WinTEC RAM will be quite costly.

[ninahagen]

That is probably a good idea. 3 GB of RAM total will save you a bit now, and can always be upgraded.

So how about:

Quad-core 2.66Ghz
1G of Apple Supplied Memory (2 x 512MB)
250 GB 7200rpm HD (file storage)
ATI Radeon 1900XT
23" Flat Panel
Applecare

$3521 in the Apple Education Store

plus

$252 Western Digital Raptor 36GB drives (1 for OSX+apps, 1 for scratch drive)
$155 Crucial RAM (2 x 1GB)

$3928

So, for $428 over your initial budget, you get:
-seperate drives for system/scratch/storage (will make a big difference in speed)
-a 23" apple monitor (we are graphics pros... the monitor is key, especially in comparing versions of a graphics file)
-Apple Care (which you hadn't figured in before)

Would that work pricewise?

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[Jeffro283]

I believe that, for now, the best configuration will be this one:
Mac Pro
+RAM (brings total to 4GB)
+Graphics (ATI Card)
+Apple Monitor 20"

And it ends up being around 3700. A scratch disk can wait a while, and a 20" monitor is much bigger than what I have been working on in the past. I would like to get the 23" model, but I can't quite justify the extra $250 for it, at least at this point.

Even though I can't get my DREAM system, this system far surpasses anything that I have used thus far. Not only that, but this is going to be the ONLY time within the near future that I will have this kind of money to buy a computer. I believe that this would make the most out of it, and would keep me from buying RAM from somewhere random and having to install it. If I am into cutting cost just slightly, i would likely purchase the WinTEC RAM for an extra 480ish instead of doing the Apple upgrade on the site. We will see.

For now, I will likely be leaving out AppleCare, because I can purchase it in the future if need be.

EDIT: I just found out that I have a school discount through CDW, and I can purchase RAM through them. I do not see WinTEC, but they have Kingston, Crucial, Edge, and SimpleTech under the Mac Desktop Memory Upgrades section.

Question: What do I look for with these brands, so that I get the best RAM for my money? Do I need Fully Buffered 667 DDR2 RAM, or what is the deal?

[ninahagen]

So how about:

Quad-core 2.66Ghz
1G of Apple Supplied Memory (2 x 512MB)
250 GB 7200rpm HD
ATI Radeon 1900XT
23" Flat Panel
Applecare

$3521 in the Apple Education Store

$155 Crucial RAM (2 x 1GB)

$3676

This way you are under your $3700. The 23" monitor is far more important that the 4th GB of RAM. The extra screen real estate will change your design life, and you will never go back. More RAM can be added later, as can the separate scratch and system drives.

Best to go with Crucial RAM. Since they supply Apple, it is exactly to spec. Yes, you need fully buffered for heat management reasons.

[shinji]

Another monitor to consider would be the new NEC Multisyncs Electronista | NEC debuts stealthy MultiSync 5 LCDs

I really think you should go to an electronics store and compare the Apple Cinema Display, Samsung, and whatever else they have. Not the best place to do it because God only knows what kind of brightness/calibration was done to the monitors, but at least you'll have an idea if you think the extra cost of the ACD is worth it to you.

I don't know what year you are, but you might be due for a new monitor anyway by the time you graduate and start working Who knows what prices and features will be like by then.

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by ninahagen 

So how about:

Quad-core 2.66Ghz
1G of Apple Supplied Memory (2 x 512MB)
250 GB 7200rpm HD
ATI Radeon 1900XT
23" Flat Panel
Applecare

$3521 in the Apple Education Store

$155 Crucial RAM (2 x 1GB)

$3676

This way you are under your $3700. The 23" monitor is far more important that the 4th GB of RAM. The extra screen real estate will change your design life, and you will never go back. More RAM can be added later, as can the separate scratch and system drives.

Best to go with Crucial RAM. Since they supply Apple, it is exactly to spec. Yes, you need fully buffered for heat management reasons.

That might be...the best configuration thus far. I will look into it. Thank you for all your help!

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by shinji 

Another monitor to consider would be the new NEC Multisyncs Electronista | NEC debuts stealthy MultiSync 5 LCDs

I really think you should go to an electronics store and compare the Apple Cinema Display, Samsung, and whatever else they have. Not the best place to do it because God only knows what kind of brightness/calibration was done to the monitors, but at least you'll have an idea if you think the extra cost of the ACD is worth it to you.

I don't know what year you are, but you might be due for a new monitor anyway by the time you graduate and start working Who knows what prices and features will be like by then.

It's not really a matter of knowing what I am dealing with, so much as it is knowing what I would rather have.

That being said, I have worked on Dell Widescreen Monitors, as well as Apple HD Cinema Displays. If I have the opportunity, I want the Apple Display. I looked up some stuff on Eizo, or whatever they are called, and those monitors looked awesome. That is, until I checked prices.

Thank you for the concern, and I may make a trip to a computer store to see some. The best I can do around my area is Best Buy, which sucks. We will see.

[Jeffro283]

It would seem that my budget has loosened slightly, so I should be able to do the 23" monitor and the 4gb of Crucial RAM! Hooray!

[ninahagen]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

It would seem that my budget has loosened slightly, so I should be able to do the 23" monitor and the 4gb of Crucial RAM! Hooray!

You rock! You won't regret it. I am typing on a 23" and everything smaller looks puny.

Just to be a gadfly , any chance you could go between $4~500 more and get the 30" inch (ahem... strap-on)?

I have one in the other office, and it is beyond amazing setting up like 10 similar frames for comparison. Either way, you owe us pics as soon as you have it all set up.

Good for you!

Nina

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Biest 

As far as I can remember the Dell's and the Apple use the same panel (correct me if i am wrong)... Since graphic applications needs a a lot of real estate I am guessing either a 22" oder 24" would be best (sry i don't know the current prices on those)

They use the same panel source, but different quality control on the panels themselves. However, Dell has a pretty good return policy regarding dead pixels, so you can just keep returning the Dell until you get a display you're happy with.

[ninahagen]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

They use the same panel source, but different quality control on the panels themselves. However, Dell has a pretty good return policy regarding dead pixels, so you can just keep returning the Dell until you get a display you're happy with.

He decided on an Apple (smart boy).

[Jeffro283]

Originally Posted by ninahagen 

He decided on an Apple (smart boy).

Yeah, I will be going with the Apple Monitor. And no, there is no way I could afford the 30" (:

Thanks for your help! I may even do the 2gb of Apple supplied RAM, but who knows yet. I will post here within the next few weeks so I can finalize my decision. I will hopefully be ordering within 2-3 weeks.

[shinji]

You won't regret it, I guarantee- that's a nice system you're buying.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

They use the same panel source, but different quality control on the panels themselves.

I know Steve said this in one of his keynotes, but do you really believe him in light of all the pink cast issues that the 23" suffered?

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Jeffro283 

Would an external Firewire drive be good enough as a scratch disk? I have used it before as one, because I had to, but yeah. Also, what exactly is the purpose of a scratch disk? I had always assumed that they were to hold render files and keep your disk cleaned up, but if I am wrong, let me know.

Use of a "Scratch Disk" is an integral part of how Photoshop operates on every file. One can assign any connected disk(s) for use as Photoshop Scratch, however for optimum PS operation the primary assigned scratch disk should be a physically different disk than the disk the app and OS are running from. The faster the scratch disk is, the better. External drives connected via FW800 or better still eSATA are ok, but with a tower the smart move is to use an internal hard drive. If possible avoid FW400 and for sure don't go near the even slower (in real-world Mac operation) USB external hard drives.

You can put other things on the scratch drive (e.g. backup), but I suggest keeping 100 GB or more free for scratch. When I upgrade my graphics tower soon I will partition the #2 internal drive with the front partition used only for scratch. That allows for routine erasure or defragging of the scratch partition.

The good news is that you can self-install third party hard drives to a Mac Pro very easily and inexpensively.

Current MPs are great boxes, so if one absolutely needs a new box now a purchase today is very sound. However the general answer to Is now a good time? is no.

MPs have been far off "state of the art" for months now especially as regards graphics and memory handling. And, Intel's processor road map continues to move on. Apple is overdue for an upgrade to the high end; the likelihood of MP upgrade (and price drop at the 2.66 GHz box level) between now and the end of September approaches 100%.

Please do note that I recently bought the same Mac Pro, because we needed it right now. It is an excellent tower. In addition to being powerful it is the quietest tower I have owned/managed.

-Allen Wicks

[ninahagen]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Use of a "Scratch Disk" is an integral part of how Photoshop operates on every file. Allen Wicks

Amen! Jeffro, you said you had decided on 4GB of crucial and the 23" monitor... great move. You also said you might spend a little more and get 2GB of apple supplied RAM... though that would not be bad, spending that $100 on a small WD Raptor as a scratch drive would add much more speed to your system for most apps. I would listen to Sierra Dragon and spend the bit extra there.

Nina