[timmerk]

I was wondering if xserves are good for web servers? Are they reliable? I read on wikipedia that the current versions of xserves are pretty flaky and I was wondering if it's true. I want to use 10.5 Server when it comes out and not some Linux distro.

Also, does Apple Remote Desktop come with OS X Server? Os is there another way to see the screen without using a third party app like vnc to see the server GUI?

Thanks!

[dowNNshift]

Unless you're hosting thousands of domains or running it in a multi-purpose role (DHCP, NAT, Firewall, and DNS), the XServe is really overpriced.

How dense is your rack environment, do you really need a 1U server? If you use a generation or two out G4 Quicksilver or G5 PowerMac you have many more options available, at a lower initial cost.

I currently have serveral PowerMac G4 servers deployed using RAID 1 and running Mac OS X client, with SWSoft Plesk 8.1.1. Unfortunately the Mac version of the Plesk control panel will only run on PPC -- but if you have access to a PPC Mac, download a free trial of the Plesk control panel and see if it'll work for you. Link: Plesk - Control Panel Software for Hosting

I've tried running Mac OS X Server as an effecient web server, and in short, it's very frustrating -- not to mention you can't give end users an individual control panel interface.

[OreoCookie]

The XServe is competitively priced, similarly configured Dell/HP/IBM/[insert other server manufacturer here] servers cost pretty much the same. Like most servers these days, the XServe has `too much' cpu horsepower for plain-vanilla webserving of smaller sites.

And yes, OS X Server allows you to configure your XServe remotely.

What kind of website do you wish to serve? Is it just static content? Will you also run a database on it? Is it in a professional environment? Perhaps you don't even need OS X Server and an XServe … 

@dowNNshift
What kind of problems are you referring to?
With the exception of trying to use Server Side Includes, web serving has been a bliss on OS X.

[timmerk]

dowNNshift: I won't have users that have sites, so I don't need to give them a control panel interface. Also, I need a 1U server since my datacenter is cheaper to colo with a 1U instead of a tower.

Oreo: it will be a very dynamic site with 100k+ users. I know it's not that much (right?), but it will also be running the database serve on the same box. Also, when you say I can configure it remotely - how does that work? Is it Apple Remote Desktop?

I'm also concerned about running a custom install of PHP5 on 10.5 server.. will OS X server's GUI admin tools be able to handle a custom install? What about MySQL 5?

Anyone know if 10.5 Server is suppose to be released at the same time as 10.5 client?

Lastly.. is there some sort of API that Apple provides so I can get server stats from without using their Server Admin tool? It would be neat to develop some applications that can monitor different aspects of the server and be able to send me emails, etc.

Thanks again!

[dowNNshift]

Awesome, thanks for your clarification. My company is focused on multi-domain hosting.. where as you're looking at a single domain dedicated server.

I can't say much about Leopard server yet, but I am certified on Tiger server...
Using Tiger Server, it includes Server Admin and Workgroup Manager which can both be used to remotely administer the XServe (or any Mac OS X Server machine). If you want to have an "enhanced" level of control, you can run Apple Remote Desktop --especially since you're colocating.

Also, if you do opt to purchase an XServe, it has internal health monitoring (with a GUI based utility) and Lightsout Management.

OreoCookie: My beef with Tiger Server hosting is the lack of multi-end user friendliness, and the backwardness of the DNS server. I'm a BIND purest --the GUI gets in the way, when all I want to do is add a stinkin' A, NS, MX, or CNAME entry...

[goMac]

The XServe would be great for colo-ing because it has lights out management. You'll be able to remote start it up, shut it down, the works.

[timmerk]

What about the onboard ethernet ports - do they offload TCP/IP to their own chips like the HP servers do, or does the Intel CPUs still handle that?

Thanks again

[Waragainstsleep]

No idea about the reliability of the Intel ones, but the PowerPCs are bullet proof. I don't deal with too many customers who use them, but in three years, I have replaced a PSU in a G5, and the drive interconnect board on a G4 (same one has failed twice, 2 years apart, but only as far as running the fans goes. And it was kept on a wooden shelf in a damp and very hot basement). I guess I have maybe 20 customers using various Xserves, we have 4 G5s at work, and I have a G4 which I built from spares. And only those two have had problems.

[TheMosco]

I remember reading an article a while back regarding the horrendous mysql performance of max os x. Does anyone have any comparisons?

I would just bite the bullet and get a linux machine, install mysql, something like lighttpd instead of apache if you don't need the extra features, and run php5 under fastcgi.

[besson3c]

The XServe is fine, but OS X is a horrible OS to use in a web hosting environment:

- The Software Update mechanism is retarded, unless you think being nagged about Safari, Quicktime and iPod updates on your server is cool (the former two requiring machine restarts)

- Some say that MySQL performance under OS X is really slow, I remember skim reading an article about this

- OS X has no open source package management, making maintenance of your infrastructure a PITA (and Apple's bundled versions are always very outdated). MacPorts and Fink are much weaker than something like apt-get or FreeBSD ports, unless these have improved greatly since I last used them.


If you do decide to use OS X Server, I would suggest turning off the Apache case-insensitive module.

While some Mac faithful in here will point out that you can run Software Update via the command line and do things (such as cron job notifications) to alert you about updates, and that you can even run OS X without a GUI, you'd be much better off IMHO using a better server OS if you are going to setup the Mac to do these sorts of things.

[TheMosco]

well said. I work in network ops and work with a large amount of app/web/db servers for a content service provider. We use Centos 4.4 and its rock solid.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TheMosco 

well said. I work in network ops and work with a large amount of app/web/db servers for a content service provider. We use Centos 4.4 and its rock solid.

We run several IMAP, mail-relay, DNS, DHCP, and web servers at work on both Solaris and Redhat. The Redhat Network alone is reason enough to use Redhat over OS X Server.

[timmerk]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

- Some say that MySQL performance under OS X is really slow, I remember skim reading an article about this

After you pointed this out, I found this:

AnandTech: No More Apple Mysteries, Part Two

Not good at all for OS X. Anyone knows if 10.5 fixes this thread problem they are talking about?

I really wanted to use the Server Admin tools of OS X. Is there a Linux equivalent that works with the Xserve hardware?

[timmerk]

Does anyone know of any Linux distros that run on the Intel xserves? Any luck with Redhat on an intel xserve? I can't find any info on this via google.

[dowNNshift]

I hear ya... The main reason I originally chose the Mac platform for do our hosting services with were the refined GUI remote interfaces and the stability of the Mac OS. Hard to beat, for sure.

Unfortunately the main Linux distros don't play nice with boot EFI and the lack of drivers in my experience, but Parallels Server is on the horizon -- which will allow you to run multiple VM Server environments from the Mac OS. A win-win scenario, with the ability to administer using Apple Remote Desktop and the other built-in XServe tools.

As of late, I've been testing other Linux and Windows Server OS's to run the Plesk CP within Parallels 3, and it has been very stable. That's very encouraging for any future "Server" grade Parallels offerings.

[dowNNshift]

I don't know if you came across this article or not, but Redhat is working on a version to work on Intel Macs... Link: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060125-6045.html

Just another thought...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by timmerk 

I really wanted to use the Server Admin tools of OS X. Is there a Linux equivalent that works with the Xserve hardware?

To be honest, and I hope I don't mean to sound like an elitist prick or something, don't bother with the Server Admin GUI tools. I don't know any serious hosting provider or anybody in a large enterprise environment that would use such a thing. They are basically training wheels tools, and relying on them is a bad idea, as they simultaneously serve as a layer of abstraction obfuscating what they are actually doing.

Web servers are used in all sorts of environments - with Active Directory/LDAP/Kerberos authentication schemes, with Apache virtualhost information stored in a database/LDAP/flat files, with all sorts of different modules, security policies, disk storage schemes, different ways of transferring and syncing data sets, in load-balanced pools, etc. There is no "one size fits all" type setup.

A GUI tool such as the Apple Server Admin tools are great for small environments where there is little reason to go outside of the comfortable Apple bubble. This is fine, nothing wrong with that, this is a noble sort of design and we are better off for having products like this. However, if you are really interested in learning this stuff, you need to really understand this stuff, and you can't be dependent on OS X Server or simply knowing what stuff to click on.

Have you ever read threads from people complaining about the fact that their so-called Mac administrator is really a Windows administrator, but calls himself a Mac administrator as well simply because he knows how to repair permissions and zap the PRAM?

[dowNNshift]

I too, totally agree with besson3c about Server Admin. Apple tries their hardest to keep you in a bubble with their two main server administration tools; Server Admin and Workgroup Manager.

If you have any experience with Bind DNS, you'll be frustrated with how Tiger Server wants to administer DNS Zones. It focuses on 'the machine' rather than the entry... and there is NO way from the GUI to manually add an entry. So in the end you'll find yourself in Terminal adding entries the old fashioned way.

That's why we skipped the frustration and installed Plesk 8.1 on PPC Mac OS X 10.4 Client... Works perfectly and does everything we've wanted it to, in a way that make sense.

If you're investing the thousands of dollars in an XServe just to hack and replace the boot EFI, you'll ruin any support chances you have down the road. I again agree with; building your own 1U server, buying a prebuilt commercially available one, or buying one bare bones and customizing it the way you want. That way you'll be able to run any Linux distro you want, including most of the mainstream Control Panels too.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by dowNNshift 

If you have any experience with Bind DNS, you'll be frustrated with how Tiger Server wants to administer DNS Zones. It focuses on 'the machine' rather than the entry... and there is NO way from the GUI to manually add an entry. So in the end you'll find yourself in Terminal adding entries the old fashioned way.

StellarDNS
Disclaimer: I once co-owned the software company above, but I no longer do.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by goMac 

StellarDNS
Disclaimer: I once co-owned the software company above, but I no longer do.

Again, not to sound elitist or possibly offensive, but why would anybody pay $20 for something that will create DNS records? It really isn't that complicated.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Again, not to sound elitist or possibly offensive, but why would anybody pay $20 for something that will create DNS records? It really isn't that complicated.

I never said it was a great business plan. I didn't write the app, and as I said, I no longer co-own the company. I still receive emails when a copy is sold, and it still sells, so there must be quite a few people out there looking for a GUI to DNS.