[scotto12]

hi there. i am currently a PC user, but i would like to switch to mac. i am going to school for multimedia design, and everyone says that mac is the way to go. but the thing is, i already have a bunch of software for my PC, and also, i don't really have a lot of money to spend. but, this is cool- somebody GAVE me their old powermac G4! so now i've got a few questions.

is the G4 still a decent machine? it's old, i know, but it's also free. or do i need to step up and get a newer model? or can i upgrade the G4 to make it competitive with the newer machines? the G4 currently has an old OS9 on it. so obviously, i'll want to update that. tiger is available cheap these days, but should i spend the extra money and get leopard when it comes out? will leopard even run on an old G4?

also, i understand that you can run windows software on macs. that's awesome! okay, so i have the following software for PC that i would want to run on my new mac: photoshop CS2, flash 8, illustrator CS2, dreamweaver 8. i have read about 2 different PC emulating programs- which one is best? any issues with running heavy programs like photoshop?

i suppose i could bite the bullet and scrounge up money for a new machine, but if it's possible to utilize the free one, that would make life easier for right now. just wondering which direction to go. any advice would be most appreciated.

thanks!
scotto12

[JonoMarshall]

PC Emulation via Virtual PC (or similar) on the "Power series" of Macs is pretty terrible, don't go there(!), only the intel machines can really run Windows and PC software successfully.

However, if you're lucky you could try to find someone who could lend you their copy of CS2, the Macromedia suite, etc, as they were all made for Mac too.

If you want to do multimedia design (animation? film?) then you'd find it much easier to use a newer machine, upgrading the old machine is possible (more RAM makes a big difference under OS X) but you'll always experience some frustration and in the end you might be better off just selling the G4 and opting for a newer machine?

[scotto12]

thank, jonomarshall.

my concentration is going to be in flash animation.

i had a feeling i might need to get a whole new machine. my main hesitation is that i'm already set up on my PC and i know how to use it. but i've never actually used a mac, so i'm a little scared of losing time to the learning curve. with work and school, it's a little hard to find extra time (and money!) but it seems like the switch to mac is going to be unavoidable in the future, with the type of work i'm getting into.

so, if i were to get a new machine... which one? any recommendations?

[Mac User #001]

Well, do you need portability? Are you cramped with space (in your room, I mean)? What sort of budget are we talking?

[JonoMarshall]

You could get a mini and use your existing PC monitor, etc? Or you could buy a portable - a MacBook would be fine for Flash but has a limited video card for Final Cut Pro work or playing games. An iMac would also be fine for you.

Notes:
You will need CS3 for it to run natively on your new intel machine, emulating PPC (the ones written for the "Power series") apps is fine, but slower and slightly buggy (apparently).
You can get an education discount if buying from Apple if starting edcation, etc.
You can always install Windows on your new machine if you're worried about the learning curve (do some searching here in the forums to find out the best way) , you'd have the best of both worlds then!

Or you could play with the G4 and see if the speed is ok for the time being? I don't want to advise you to waste your money, heh. (If it was me, I'd need the new machine, but I need to keep up-to-date, work quickly, etc.)

[scotto12]

thanks, guys-no, i don't need portability, and i'm not that cramped on space. i am cramped on money, though. that's why i was hoping that the G4 would suit my needs. obviously, the cheapest thing to do would be to just stick with my PC. but i'll be buying new software over the next year or two, and i have the impression that in order to be taken seriously in the design field, you HAVE to be a mac user. so it might be best to switch over now, and then i can learn all this stuff using a mac, instead of learning it all on PC and then having to switch later AND having to re-purchase software.

so.... from looking at the new machines available, it looks like maybe an imac would be the way to go? i've heard that the mini is sort of a fad, and not easily upgradable. (obviously the mac pro is the better machine, but i don't think i could swing the 2500 bucks.) so which imac, and would i need to upgrade in order to suit my needs? i'll be doing animation and photoshop work, and also i've got a video editing class coming up eventually. i hear that adding RAM is more expensive for macs... what do you guys think?

[Microfracture]

Originally Posted by scotto12 

is the G4 still a decent machine? it's old, i know, but it's also free.

G4s are still decent in my opinion. It really depends on your needs though.
I personally use an 867MHz G4 PowerMac running Tiger as my primary machine and I am quite content with it.

Originally Posted by scotto12 

i upgrade the G4 to make it competitive with the newer machines?

You can upgrade it easily. The question is whether or net you want to spend the money to do it.
If you want to upgrade your processor things can get expensive

Originally Posted by scotto12 

the G4 currently has an old OS9 on it. so obviously, i'll want to update that. tiger is available cheap these days, but should i spend the extra money and get leopard when it comes out? will leopard even run on an old G4?

Apple recently changed the minimum processor requirement for Leopard to an 867MHz G4.
If your processor's speed is lower than that you should probably stick with 10.4 (Tiger).

[Leonard]

Maybe you want to think about where you really want to go? I'm getting a mixed solution here. Your going into the multimedia area, you have an old Mac, you have a PC, you want to switch, you have PC software.

You can't use PC software on a PowerPC-based Mac without bought software (emulation) which is dying, because of the new Intel-based Macs. You could easily use the PC software if you had an Intel-based Mac.

In my opinion any mid to higher-end G4 or Intel Mac can do multimedia design performance wise. If you add RAM to that G4, I'm sure it would do. I would also imagine a PC can do it - can it not. And if you know the PC I can't see why you can't translate what they do on a Mac to a PC.

If you really want to switch, in a transition way, the Intel-based Mac is the best way to go as it can run both software cheaply. But switching is eventually going to cost money as newer software will hopefully be Mac software, otherwise there is no reason to switch if your going to just use PC software.

[reader50]

It would help somewhat if you could tell us exactly which G4 you have. The possibilities that can boot OS9 range from a single 350 MHz up to a dual 1.25 GHz. If your G4 is at the lower end of the range (likely), then the above advice is correct. On the other hand, if your G4 is near the upper end of the range, then it would be Leopard-safe and will run decently for a few more years.

[~bash $]

The mini is a great budget option to get into mac. Well, at least the closest thing to a budget option that exists. The iMac is a great computer, and you can probably score a great deal on the last gen's iMac (white). Additionally, check the Apple Refurb site often, as good deals appear there all the time. Or use your academic discount.

Of course, you could always just switch fields to, you know, physics or math or something.

[peeb]

A second hand or refurb intel mini would be your best bet I think - it's cheapest, plenty powerful, and you can run your existing software under parallels or bootcamp while you make the transition to native mac software.

[scotto12]

reader50-

okay, great! here is what i've got. this is according to the computer itself:

model: power mac G4 (AGP graphics)
built-in memory: 832 MB
backside L2 cache: 2MB
machine ID: 406
processor info: unknown type (um, i wish it would tell me this)
machine speed: 1200 MHz
HD: 10G
HD2: 30G
display card: ATI rage 128Ps

so, i was curious about the processor, so i opened it up and looked. it says "1200/2M sonnet encore G4" on the sticker. the actual number printed on the chip is "sg4rs-1200-2-bi rev d." it's got an array of aluminum cooling blades attached to the outside.

[Lateralus]

Looks like it's already got an aftermarket processor upgrade card. Lucky you.

RAM is sufficient. CPU is sufficient. The only thing I think you desperately need to upgrade is the video card. Even a basic GeForce 2MX or original Radeon card would do wonders for performance, since you'd be able to take advantage of Quartz Extreme.

Either can be had for $20-30 on eBay with ease.

If you're willing to shell out more for the video card, you wont regret it. Closer to $100 will get you a much more modern Radeon or, as I opted for, a flashed to Mac GeForce 6200 256MB.

[scotto12]

leonard-

thanks for the advice. as to your question of why i want to switch if i already have a PC and PC software... well, i bought the software because i was just starting school, and i already had a PC. i couldn't afford to buy a whole new computer, so i went with what i had. however, it seems like everyone who i've seen who actually WORKS in design uses a mac. so i feel like i'm going to need to be on a mac eventually, or else i'll be the only kid in the office working on a PC, and the mac-users will make fun of me!

but you have a point- right now, i can do everything i need to do on my current system. so why switch? because someone gave me this G4! so.... i'm just looking toward the future. also, i will have to buy more software before i am finished with school, so i thought that if i switched now, it might save me some money in the long run. not to mention getting me used to working on a mac. it seems like it's just... different.

thanks again, and cheers!

[scotto12]

lateralus-

woo-hoo! glad to hear it. although i may want to get a bigger hard drive as well.

thanks for the advice on the video card.

[reader50]

Your machine is a Sawtooth G4 (Apple's internal code name). The AGP slot is 2x, there are 4 RAM slots, which take PC100 or PC133 (running at 100MHz). Max RAM module size is 512MB, so the machine's max total RAM is 2 GB. It is probably unable to take a dual CPU, but that is somewhat irrelevant because you have a decent CPU upgrade already.

Because of the CPU upgrade, your machine falls into the upper G4 range. It will run Leopard fine. However, the Leopard Installer may balk, because the machine was originally in the 350-500 MHz range, and the installer may go by that instead of using the measured speed. If it does balk, it will be easy enough to get around, either by installing from another Mac via Firewire, or by using a 3rd party utility to override the install check. It will run Tiger today without issues.

I agree with Lateralus on a newer graphics card. The installed card is a Rage 128 Pro, and it is seriously lame by today's standards. Not surprising, since it is ~7 years old, with 16 MB of video RAM. Research carefully before buying another AGP card, you need a 2x or 2x/4x card with Mac firmware. Or a PCI 9200. There is a Radeon 9800 model that will work, but it's ridiculously expensive new.

The first HD is probably the factory original. 7 year old 10 GB, running at 5400 RPM. Get something bigger and newer, it will be both faster and a lot quieter. Your system is affected by the 128/137 GB limit on the internal bus. This is discussed more fully in our PowerMac Storage FAQ thread, which is stickied at the top of this forum. I'd suggest at least getting a 160 GB (~$50), and sticking it in. It will format as 128, with about 20 left over; unreachable. Check the Storage FAQ for details on other alternatives.

[SierraDragon]

IMO putting any money into the G4 solution is a serious wrong direction for graphics work. Folks above saying G4s or Minis are OK probably are not graphics pros. Note too that some graphics apps benefit from better-than-stock graphics hardware but others do not (e.g. Photoshop shows no benefit; PS through PSCS3 only uses the graphics card for simple blitting). Be fully aware of what your apps benefit from before spending money on upgrading graphics.

When you move to Mac you want to do it on pro-level hardware if your intent is to work graphics apps. Minimum would be a multiprocessor G5 toward the end of the G5 cycle, best would be a MacIntel tower. Whatever you get should have minimum 3 GB RAM for graphics. Mac folks buy third party RAM, not Apple RAM; e.g. from Find the latest Performance Upgrades, Firewire and USB Hard Drives, SATA, Memory, Laptop Battery, and more at OWC or from Crucial. Avoid discount RAM like the plague.

New Mac Pro towers will (99.9% chance) be out before the end of November. That will drive prices of all earlier Mac towers down.

Note too that apps evolve to demand stronger hardware. And OS 10.5 "leopard" is due out this month; a huge OS upgrade that will further evolve the Mac application space. Even though using an older computer to the end of its useful life is very feasible (my work tower is a dual processor G4 about to be retired to standalone scanning), starting off with a 7 year old computer is IMO a huge waste of time and money.

A computer for real graphics work, student or pro, entails an investment of time as well as money, and for a tower can have a 4-5 year life cycle. Dumping time and money into a legacy G4 for graphics work is IMO a very poor life cycle decision. You would waste all your time that should be spent learning apps and the OS instead coping with arcane hardware limitations.

As regards running emulation software on a G4 to run Photoshop et. al., fuggedaboutit. Emulation/virtualization/Boot Camp work well on modern MacIntels but perform unacceptably or not at all with heavy graphics apps on 7-year-old G4 computers. Either keep running Adobe's apps on PC or switch your Adobe licenses to the Mac versions, which is very cheap, under $20.

-Allen Wicks

[reader50]

Not everyone, especially starving students, has $3K burning a hole in their pocket to get a top-line tower. He already has the G4 for free, and $100 in upgrades is not unreasonable for a starter system. He'd need a larger HD for just about any kind of work, and a Quartz Extreme-enabled graphics card would speed up the interface quite a bit.

He can keep his current PC for now, and get his feet wet in a usable Mac for nearly nothing ... until he has the cash for the better answers. Once he does get a pro-grade tower, he can sell the G4 system for at least the $100 he puts into it.

I don't believe we are wasting his time.

[peeb]

I still think an intel mini is the way to go. His current software will still work, and the mac side will be much faster.

[scotto12]

thanks for all the advice, everyone. after reviewing my financial status, i'm gonna stick with the G4 for now, and just spend a few bucks on a new graphics card and a bigger HD. hopefully i can do that for under $100. and then, if i really need it, i can add more RAM if necessary.

and i'll start saving my money for a new machine some day.

thanks again, and cheers!

scotto12