[axlepin]

here's one link to this story:
AppleInsider | Nehalem Mac Pro systems suffer audio-based performance issues



there are threads on apple's board going back months on this issue, which sound pretty serious to me, yet...nothing from Apple other than "it's normal."

the potential that we could be burning out our machines by doing something innocent like playing music on what were touted as powerhouses with muscle to spare gives me a queasy feeling.... $3000 is a lot of dough. I expect Apple to own the problem and release a fix, as the cause appears to be software-based.

Any thoughts on this?

a

[mduell]

Burning your machines out? LOL what? Not even close.

This is a ridiculous bug for a company that's supposed to be selling tightly integrated, well engineered systems (Apple's software on Apple's OS on Apple's hardware), but it's not going to melt your machine.

Ironic that a workaround is to switch to Microsoft's OS.

[axlepin]

whatever.


the idea is not that one's mac pro will liquify right there on the desktop, but that the machines are operating close to or beyond their designed operational limits with respect to temperature.

As excess heat is the enemy of all electronic components, this issue does not bode well for the long term.

one would hope that apple or somebody else would develop a solution to the problem.


a

[Big Mac]

Shame on Apple.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by axlepin 

the idea is not that one's mac pro will liquify right there on the desktop, but that the machines are operating close to or beyond their designed operational limits with respect to temperature.

As excess heat is the enemy of all electronic components, this issue does not bode well for the long term.

The reported temperatures are all within spec. It would be even more absurd for the machine to go out of spec at 20% load!

[Big Mac]

200 degree U3 temperatures sound pretty damn hot though.

[axlepin]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

200 degree U3 temperatures sound pretty damn hot though.

yes, considering the chore being added: playing sound.

also, activity monitor apparently registers no performance uptick and the fans don't rev up in correspondence to the increase power draw and heat given off.

other machines, like Mac Book Pros don't show this kind of behavior when put through the same experiment, nor does it happen on 2009 Mac Pros running Windows.

I'd expect 200 degrees when running full out, all cores maxed.

not when playing a bit of music, which isn't that CPU-intensive compared to many other things.

a

[Big Mac]

Plus, if this is an EFI level problem then it's not necessarily the case that the system is protecting itself against thermal runaways. If I purchased a Mac Pro that had this defect I'd be mightily pissed.

[axlepin]

right on.

which is why we, the affected, ARE mightily pissed.

it would go along way to help if Apple were to publicly own the problem, and get their buttocks moving on a fix, FAST.

I just learned of the issue 2 or 3 days ago. Imagine how flummoxed I was to learn that this has been ongoing and known for the best part of a year!

Yet apple is about to announce new products which I'm sure they want people to buy based on how great the other macs have been, all the while being virtually silent about this issue, which portends to be catastrophic to a guy like me*.

a

*a guy like me isn't rich

[Big Mac]

Sorry, axlepin. I feel your pain. The Mac Owners Support Group (initially called G5 Support) was created because of user complaints over G5 issues. I'm sure you can find a lot of sympathetic ears there.

Let your voice be heard. Pester Apple. Email Steve Jobs. Be polite but firm with AppleCare. Gather all the documentation you can. Circulate petitions. Anger alone won't help your case. Of course, eventually Apple will most likely either offer a firmware fix or a recall (if it's a serious problem), but if you're really dissatisfied stand up for your cause.

[axlepin]

thanks for that link.

it's exactly why I posted here and at several other sites I visit...to learn the extent of the issue and the availability of remedies.

I will visit that site.

The folks discussing this at Apple discussions are plenty mad about it. At other sites, the reaction is split between snarkiness at daring to impugn the Almighty Apple, and just plain ignorance of the issue altogether!

...suggesting that we who know about it are the tip of the ice berg.

I would say that Steve needs to man up on this one and make it right. Surely a "$50-billion" company can afford to do right by the jamokes that helped put them there...


a

[P]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Plus, if this is an EFI level problem then it's not necessarily the case that the system is protecting itself against thermal runaways. If I purchased a Mac Pro that had this defect I'd be mightily pissed.

So would I, because I don't like unnecessary fan noise, but I wouldn't worry about a CPU being damaged. The CPU protects itself - first by introducing NOPs (no operation instructions) into the instruction stream and then by underclocking itself through SpeedStep. Nehalem-class CPUs will also disable cores, and I believe that it will even shut down the entire CPU in case of emergency. I've never seen that happen, however.

What you are describing, where EFI controlled throttling and emergency shutdown, is similar to what happened on a PM G5 where Open Firmware was responsible for emergency shutdowns. It did so by sending a signal to the OS about a thermal runaway condition, which let the OS sleep the machine. Intel doesn't work that way - it cannot trust the BIOS manufacturer to do things right, so the "safety valve" is internal to the CPU.

Go right ahead and annoy Apple if you have this defect, but don't worry about the CPU being damaged by it.

[Big Mac]

It's good to know that Intel CPUs can speed step without any extra controlling firmware. But even if the CPU can be trusted to protect itself, what about the other components like the memory controller that's supposedly running at 200 degrees?

[axlepin]

there are other issues in play here, tho it is somewhat comforting to know that CPU protection rests with the CPU...

the other issues are:

excessive power drawn for what ought not be a heavy power-use task: playing music.

performance hit to other applications: The Mac Pro is supposed to be a blood-drinking killer of a workstation. Taking a 20% performance hit while playing a song is unacceptable for a high-end workstation. You'd think this more characteristic of a single-core G4 Mac Mini and THEY don't behave this way. I know. I have 2 of them.

excessive heat production: playing a song should not cause excess power, and therefore, excess heat. some of us are concerned about electricity usage. We want to use no more than we need. We care about the environment, but we also pay electric bills and we are not all wealthy.

I expect apple to stand behind what is touted as an advanced, power-consumption-conscious workstation design. I'm not willing to give up 30% of the reason I went with this machine on the idea that "the cpus will shut down if the machine fries."

that don't work.

what works is for Apple to own the problem, and to take steps immediately to rectify it. From what I've read, it sounds like the problem is software-based.

Surely Apple can fix a software issue.

a

[P]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's good to know that Intel CPUs can speed step without any extra controlling firmware. But even if the CPU can be trusted to protect itself, what about the other components like the memory controller that's supposedly running at 200 degrees?

Memory controller is inside the CPU these days, and anyway it only used about 10W when it was separate. It also has a rather constant load, so it seems unlikely that it will run warm. GPUs also shut down when overheating, and have their own fans that can rev before that happens. RAM uses tiny amounts of energy relative to their size, unless it's FB-DIMM or something like that.

Also remember that the CPUs do not seem to produce more heat than their TDP states that they might at full blast. What's wrong is that they get to full blast teperatures when doing something rather trivial, not that those temperatures are absurdly high. The cooling system is supposed to be able to handle that.

[axlepin]

I would suggest all who are interested to visit this thread at Apple Discussions to get a clear picture of what's going on. This is no small matter.

a

thread: Apple - Support - Discussions - Temperature Rises with audio ...

[Big Mac]

I was talking about the U3. I know that the latest Intel lines now have integrated memory controllers, so I misspoke. Either way, there's no excuse for this bug.

Of course, this is the new Apple we're talking about. . .

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Of course, this is the new Apple we're talking about. . .

Oh, bollocks!

Haven't you been around long enough to remember the fiasco with the fried Firewire ports on all PowerBook G4's up until July 2003, as well as all iMac G3s up until then? That was due to Apple not following THEIR OWN DAMN SPEC on Firewire surge protection. Never acknowledged.

Was that the "new Apple"? 2001-2003?

What about the 4G iPods and their dying hard drives?

What about the high-pitched graphics whine on a lot of G5 PowerMacs that made it rather difficult to use them in a recording studio? New Apple?

When did "New Apple" start IYNSHO?

[axlepin]

Yeah...Apple has produced a lot of stink bombs in their long history.

However, most of what they've produced has been pretty good. I do not see how any company can have an output of a zillion high-tech gizmos per year and do it all glitch-free.

You can't pick up a magazine these days without finding typos or really stupid grammatical mistakes, and I can assure you, magazines are way less involved than computer platforms to produce.

What counts (for me) is how Apple handles this problem.


Do they go the route of flim-flamming, blaming customers, or sweating them out until their Apple Care expires, calling "not our problem anymore!!"

or

Do they man up and fix the problem?

As time goes on, it will likely be more painful for them to do the former. There are simply too many people having the same, duplicatable results on their 2009 MPs for this to be a fluke or the doings of some silly macsters out there.

How they handle this issue, which affects me, too (8-core nahelem owner here) will make or break not only their reputation in the eyes of many, but will decide which mac I buy in future.

If in fact I even buy one ever again.

a

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Oh, bollocks!

Haven't you been around long enough to remember the fiasco with the fried Firewire ports on all PowerBook G4's up until July 2003, as well as all iMac G3s up until then? That was due to Apple not following THEIR OWN DAMN SPEC on Firewire surge protection. Never acknowledged.

Was that the "new Apple"? 2001-2003?

What about the 4G iPods and their dying hard drives?

What about the high-pitched graphics whine on a lot of G5 PowerMacs that made it rather difficult to use them in a recording studio? New Apple?

When did "New Apple" start IYNSHO?

Man, I can troll you so easily.

[mduell]

"Burning our machines out" reminds me of the video Tomshardware shot, running the same benchmark (Quake 3?) on a Pentium 4 and an Athlon. They removed the heatsinks and the Pentium 4 got really slow but kept playing while the Athlon burst into flames. At the time AMD was still using external thermal diodes and relied on the chipsets to protect the CPU, while Intel had thermal diodes in the package and the CPU protected itself.

[P]

Originally Posted by mduell 

"Burning our machines out" reminds me of the video Tomshardware shot, running the same benchmark (Quake 3?) on a Pentium 4 and an Athlon. They removed the heatsinks and the Pentium 4 got really slow but kept playing while the Athlon burst into flames. At the time AMD was still using external thermal diodes and relied on the chipsets to protect the CPU, while Intel had thermal diodes in the package and the CPU protected itself.

Yes, that's the video I was thinking of. Didn't the P4 eventually turn itself off completely? I think they do that as some sort of emergency response.

[mduell]

Ars

One customer was told by an Apple Care support technician that the problem is a "known issue" and that a fix is in the works. Another was told by a senior-level tech that "Apple is investigating the issue."

...one reader contacted Ars to let us know that he was experiencing similar issues with his Core i7 iMac, especially when using Logic Studio.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Man, I can troll you so easily.

dammit

[mduell]

"Fix" is out.

[Todd Madson]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

200 degree U3 temperatures sound pretty damn hot though.

Weak. My G5 2.5 dual U3 gets to 213.5 degrees on a hot summer day. 200 is nothing!

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by mduell 

"Fix" is out.

How well did the fix work out?