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mduell · Mar 16, 2012, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

What $1,500 price gap?

This one:

Originally Posted by mduell

Entry level "pro" - single socket, single disk, basic video
Mac Pro: $3274 for 3.2 Ghz quad, 8GB RAM, 1TB disk, Radeon 5770
Dell Precision T1600: $1780 for 3.3Ghz quad, 8GB ECC RAM, 1TB disk, Quadro 600, and a 3 year warranty

No FW800! No wifi! Well there goes $50 of our $1500 savings...

Originally Posted by SierraDragon

I would need to do an A-B comparison with the box full of 5 drives, fat RAM and a couple of GPU slots used similar to the way I equip my MPs.

Well that's great, but irrelevant to the cost discussion we were having about single socket workstations. The price gap for dual socket workstations is very small and not in dispute.

Don Pickett · Mar 16, 2012, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

No FW800! No wifi! Well there goes $50 of our $1500 savings...

Add $200 to get an equivalent GPU + $100 for Wifi FW800 and you're at ~$2,100.
Don't know how you're specing your MP, but I just got $2,800 matching that machine.

So, $700 difference, which is the first one I've seen where there's a real difference. However, it appears you get different prices in different places on Dell's website. I just got $2,300 configuring the exact same machine in a different place on dell.com.

olePigeon · Mar 16, 2012, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by P

This doesn't mean that HP et all put out garbage cases on their expensive workstations.

No, but they do anyway. Having bought probably thousands of HP and Dell workstations over the years, their workstation cases are not much better than the consumer computers. They may not have the transparent plastic bits and hologram stickers, but they're certainly not a nice finished aluminum.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, either. A flat black painted steel case is fine for a workstation. I'm just saying that the amount of effort Apple puts into the quality and design of the case is included in the price of the computer. Like I said, I think it's a good value for what you get, but you're paying for all the extras that you don't necessarily need.

Speaking of computer cases, if I had some VC dump a little money my way, I'd start a PC case company. Having been in the custom PC business for a while as supplementary income, I can't believe how sh*tty those "high end" cases are. And you're 100% correct, they're sold on flash and not quality. There're only so many ways you can fold a sheet of aluminized metal, and only so many angles you can mold plastic in. The state of PC cases is pretty damn depressing.

mduell · Mar 16, 2012, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Add $200 to get an equivalent GPU + $100 for Wifi FW800 and you're at ~$2,100.

The same GPU as the Mac Pro only costs $100 to begin with. You've inexplicably doubled the price of FW800/wifi.

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Don't know how you're specing your MP, but I just got $2,800 matching that machine.

store.apple.com, select Mac Pro, select Quad-Core, upgrade CPU to 3.2Ghz, upgrade memory to 8GB, observe $3,274.00 price.

angelmb · Mar 16, 2012, 03:33 PM

Having bought probably thousands of HP and Dell workstations over the years, their workstation cases are not much better than the consumer computers. (…)

That's not necessarily a bad thing, either. A flat black painted steel case is fine for a workstation.

Let me to disagree with you this time. In certain circles it is a bad thing. This is not being a snob, far from it, this is owning a tool intimately connected to the cultural context in which we live our lives.

Don Pickett · Mar 16, 2012, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

The same GPU as the Mac Pro only costs $100 to begin with.

Lowest price for ATi 5770 I found was $192.

You've inexplicably doubled the price of FW800/wifi.

Dell site had FW800 cards at $60. Figured that + Wifi + tax = $100.

store.apple.com, select Mac Pro, select Quad-Core, upgrade CPU to 3.2Ghz, upgrade memory to 8GB, observe $3,274.00 price.

Weird.

SierraDragon · Mar 16, 2012, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

While I think the Mac Pro is a good value for what's included, do you really need the equivalent of a $1000 computer case for a business workstation?

Correct. And the Mac Mini line works fine for most business workstations.

However with the Mac Pro line we get into pro workstations for graphics, photo/video and the like. For pro workstations yes, you do really need the equivalent of a $1000 computer case. You need architecture proven to capably handle the power demands, heat and noise of massive RAM, multiple GPUs and multiple drives.

IMO a Dell is just a box of parts, while a MP is a beautifully engineered piece of hardware. The two different boxes are not directly price-comparable based on some simplistic what-does-the raw-component-cost analysis.

My 02.

-Allen

P · Mar 16, 2012, 04:29 PM

Don: I linked to FW cards, wifi and a Radeon 5770 for less than what you're seeing.

Don Pickett · Mar 16, 2012, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by P

Don: I linked to FW cards, wifi and a Radeon 5770 for less than what you're seeing.

I missed it. Looking back, the price difference seems to be you using Newegg and me using Dell prices.

mduell · Mar 16, 2012, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by SierraDragon

However with the Mac Pro line we get into pro workstations for graphics, photo/video and the like. For pro workstations yes, you do really need the equivalent of a $1000 computer case. You need architecture proven to capably handle the power demands, heat and noise of massive RAM, multiple GPUs and multiple drives.

IMO a Dell is just a box of parts, while a MP is a beautifully engineered piece of hardware. The two different boxes are not directly price-comparable based on some simplistic what-does-the raw-component-cost analysis.

I think this massively overstates the engineering you think Apple is putting into a modern minitower computer compared to Dell. We're not building rocket engines here. The Dell dual socket workstations designed for multiple GPUs and disk arrays have the required power and cooling to support them, just like my Dell 1Us, 2Us, and 4Us in the datacenter.

The raw component cost analysis stems from the comments about BOM.

mduell · Mar 16, 2012, 05:32 PM

Let's look at that higher-end user - dual socket, gobs of RAM, multi-disk RAID, pro video

Mac Pro: $9148 for dual 2.66Ghz 6-core, 48GB RAM, 4x1TB disk and hw RAID, Radeon 5870, APP
Dell T5500: $9408 for dual 2.66Ghz 6-core, 48GB RAM, 4x1TB disk and hw RAID, FirePro V5900, 3 year NBD on-site

I'd prefer to use pro SAS 10k drives, but Apple doesn't see fit to offer those - or pro graphics - for their "workstation".

A 3% price difference in Apple's favor - they're very competitive here.

For those concerned about the engineering, Dell has a 875 watt 88% PSU in the T5500 so you can load it up.

Waragainstsleep · Mar 16, 2012, 05:33 PM

Well built as it is, the Mac Pro case does not cost $1000. Even Apple doesn't charge that for it, even if you include the PSU.

Don Pickett · Mar 16, 2012, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Let's look at that higher-end user - dual socket, gobs of RAM, multi-disk RAID, pro video
For those concerned about the engineering, Dell has a 875 watt 88% PSU in the T5500 so you can load it up.

Just checked out of curiosity. Looks like the MP PSU is 980W. Had no idea it was that much.

Spheric Harlot · Mar 16, 2012, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Just checked out of curiosity. Looks like the MP PSU is 980W. Had no idea it was that much.

olepigeon mentioned it on the previous page.

Don Pickett · Mar 16, 2012, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

olepigeon mentioned it on the previous page.

Work is really interfering with my posting.

olePigeon · Mar 16, 2012, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep

Well built as it is, the Mac Pro case does not cost $1000. Even Apple doesn't charge that for it, even if you include the PSU.

I have no idea how much it costs, but I was making an estimate based on the sh*t PC cases that are regularly sold for $500. If Apple were to sell their case on the retail market as a standard highend ATX case, it would easily be $1000.

olePigeon · Mar 16, 2012, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by SierraDragon

For pro workstations yes, you do really need the equivalent of a $1000 computer case. You need architecture proven to capably handle the power demands, heat and noise of massive RAM, multiple GPUs and multiple drives.

I think you misunderstood me. It's a $1000 because it's looks awesome and is made of 10x thicker sheet of aluminum than your typical high end PC case. The functionality of the case is probably not much more than Dell or HP. The only exception I think is that the drives are hot swappable in nice, aluminum trays, and the case has cooling zones with socketed, large, low RPM fans.

From a purely aesthetic point of view, there isn't a single wire to be seen. Nearly everything is socketed. The Mac Pro is pretty much the holy grail in terms of wiring from a PC modder's point of view. That is why it's a $1000 case if it were sold in the retail market.

olePigeon · Mar 16, 2012, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

The raw component cost analysis stems from the comments about BOM.

From what I understand, Apple pays for higher fault tolerance on their components than Dell and HP. So while the components are the same and the manufacturer is the same, the quality of the end product is higher. This is demonstrated in the percentage of initial failures and repairs, Apple has routinely lead the pack in product quality for the past 10 years according to Consumer Reports.

angelmb · Mar 17, 2012, 04:02 AM

For those concerned about the engineering …

From a purely aesthetic point of view …

What if you want both.?

mduell · Mar 17, 2012, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

From what I understand, Apple pays for higher fault tolerance on their components than Dell and HP. So while the components are the same and the manufacturer is the same, the quality of the end product is higher. This is demonstrated in the percentage of initial failures and repairs, Apple has routinely lead the pack in product quality for the past 10 years according to Consumer Reports.

That may be true for their consumer segment which makes up the volume that feeds into those reported stats and the HP/Dell are at $300 ASPs. I don't think there's any differentiation in the workstation/server (I group them due to the large number of common components) market.