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Jeff Williams · May 1, 2003, 08:43 PM

As some of you may or may not know, for the past several months I have been posting messages on this forum - and others across the web - regarding my struggle with Apple Computer resulting from the purchase of a defective Titanium PowerBook, and its' subsequent repairs and replacements. Over a period of 20 months, these units were replaced three times and repaired nearly a dozen times. I don't have an explanation as to exactly WHY this has occurred, I only know that is has, and that the experience has been both frustrating and obnoxious.

If you're so inclined to read about the full experience, please visit my website (http://williamsdesign.com/apple.shtml) and I will provide you with additional details. If not, we can pick up the story right here. I am now on my fourth Titanium PowerBook, which has failed. I returned it to Apple for service, and it came back to me non-operational. It was then returned to Apple Engineering in Elk Grove, CA.

When my defective computer was originally inspected last week by Apple, I was told that the damage was caused to the computer when a RAM chip was improperly seated by their repair staff. This, according to Robin Roberts (at the time my corporate executive relations contact) caused some arcing within the case, and there were clear marks on the inside where "charring" has occurred.

I must note that she went out of her way - to the extreme - to downplay the nature of this damage. Personally, I have had Macs for a long time, and I had a hard time believing that the problem could have possibly occurred in the way it was described to me, but then again - I use Macs because I don't WANT to have to be a computer expert, I just want to get stuff done. It's like my car. I can change the oil and do basic maintenance, but other than that, I just want to drive it. I have no interest in becoming a mechanic - or a computer hardware technician.

Regardless, an offer was made by Apple to replace the unit with ANOTHER Titanium PowerBook. I declined, because this would have been my fifth of the line, and I no longer want to deal with what I view as the inherent defects this model seems to suffer. Sue me, flame me, whatever - this HAS BEEN my PERSONAL and PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE. I asked for a CREDIT of my ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE so that I could purchase a different (yes, newer) model computer (hopefully one I would have fewer problems with), the 17" Aluminum PowerBook. I never (NEVER) asked Apple to cover the cost of the upgrade, I offered to do that myself.

Likewise, the 17" Aluminum PowerBook was - and still is - the ONLY comparable, non-titanium option available. Show me a 15" Aluminum, and I'll bite. If for no other reason, it will fit in my computer bag.

After this offer was refused, I gave Apple another option - a refund of the purchase price, which is prescribed by the Apple Warranty: "If a defect exists, at its option Apple will (1) repair the product at no charge, using new or refurbished replacement parts, (2) exchange the product with a product that is new or which has been manufactured from new or serviceable used parts and is at least functionally equivalent to the original product, or (3) refund the purchase price of the product."

Via the pit bull of the corporate executive relations division, Patrick Ekstrand, Apple again said no. Quite firmly, I might add. I then punted and asked Apple to repair the computer, and I would deal with the issue through Small Claims Court, as it was clear that I wasn't getting satisfaction through "normal" channels. I'm pretty sure they thought I was bluffing, but I filed that day.

On Monday of this week, I was *supposed* to receive my defective PowerBook back from Apple's repair center. When it did not arrive as promised, I did some investigating - only to discover the unit had been placed on an "Engineering Hold." Red alert, captain.

Today, three days later, I received a call from Nancy Laxson-Heighton, a project manager within Apple's legal department. She indicated that Apple engineers had gone over my computer again, and NOW determined that the arcing in question COULD NOT have occurred during any normal usage, and that it was their contention that this damage was caused by misuse or intentional sabotage of my computer. My warranty has been voided, and Apple will only repair the unit if I pay for that service and the related parts.

Of course, I categorically deny her baseless allegations, and I have sworn out out a legal affidavit to that effect today. This claim by Apple is, plain and simple, PURE FICTION. I'm sure the Apple zealot masses will use their claim as cannon fodder for a flame attack - whatever. I've been down that road before, and I know the truth.

As for Apple, I will see you in court. Specifically - May 21st at 9:30 AM. Bring your checkbook.

For the rest of you, please learn from my experiences. Apple is a large corporate entity and not unlike any other in the computer industry - or any other industry. If you think ours is a "different" lifestyle... or somehow superior beyond the (normally) rock-solid hardware and futuristic, ultra-stable OS - well quite frankly, you've been sold a bad bill of goods. If you call C.E.O. Steve Jobs by his first name (Yo, Steve!) or think for a second that he gives a rat's ass about anything other than separating you from your money... well, you're naive.

Yes, Apple Computers are normally well built, extremely reliable and not prone to failure. They have to be. They are slower and cost thousands more than comparable Windows boxes, and there has to be some kind of justification for that - reliability is it. Likewise, if everyone was having the same experience with Apple hardware as I am, the stock would be in the toilet (well, more so than it already is) and they would be having a fire sale at 1 Infinite loop in Cupertino.

Just be prepared, if you get a bad computer, or SEVERAL bad computers, expect do things Apple's way - or to bend over and grab your ankles. Apple will be more willing to do anything - divulge private information a la John Manzione - even create baseless and unproveable accusations - rather than deal with an actual problem. You don't like or agree with my views? That's your business. Just be a smarter consumer than I have been - know your rights and stand up for them. Apple's certainly not going to do that for you.

Caveat Emptor, my ass.

BigDaddy · May 1, 2003, 09:46 PM

I do not see any company giving you a full refund after you have had the system that long. Good luck taking them to court.

icruise · May 1, 2003, 10:19 PM

Oh joy! I get to read the same rant here as well as at the Macworld forums and god-knows where else.

dettociao · May 1, 2003, 11:00 PM

If you beat apple I will personally crap on my own face.

icruise · May 1, 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by dettociao:
If you beat apple I will personally crap on my own face.

Now that would be interesting...

mrgaskell · May 1, 2003, 11:38 PM

HA! ROTFFLMFAO!!!

euchomai · May 1, 2003, 11:40 PM

Sounds like a case of THE DILEMMA OF MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME BY PROXY. Check out this link... could it be???mbp

PeterKG · May 1, 2003, 11:49 PM

I wonder if Jeff Williams is the alter ego of Manizone?

awcopus · May 2, 2003, 12:20 AM

This whole thing was worth it to read the line, "If you beat Apple, I will personally crap on my own face."

I'm laughing out loud right now as I write this. Just brilliant.

As for the dude taking on Apple, honestly, good luck to you. I've been using Macs since 1988 and I've had the occasional need for Apple's hardware support. In all but one case out of a half a dozen or so, Apple was extremely attentive. That one case was a problem for me less as a result of Apple's corporate culture than the extraordinary idiocy of particular employees at the company. Once I requested new people to deal with, everything went quite smoothly.

hehe "crap on my own face" hehe he he hehehe

urrl5201 · May 2, 2003, 05:32 AM

Keep me posted on your website Jeff. As one who has also sent my Ti in for a simple paint repair and ended up sending it in 4 more times for Apple's botched repair service ranging from a broken USB port, misaligned, paint scraping hinges to a big curved scratch on the top of my Ti, I don't find it as hard as others to believe your story. Personally I would have probably settled for a replacement Ti but to each his own. Hope everything works out for you. Perhaps you will be sent a photo of the guy who said he will crap on his own face, bent over like a pretzel doing the deed if you win your case. Pin it up over your new 17".

Vi0 · 05:42 AM

Dude...you could have taken that brand new replacement PowerBook and sold it on eBay FOR the purchase price or pretty close to it if you are so unhappy. Now you just have to spend so much time waiting and on preparing a court case. The courts are even more corrupt than Apple. Even if you do win, it has taken many, many weeks out of your free time and caused you great frustration.

duuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...*Mocking Mode*...I don't know what I'm doing, even though I think I'm a hotshot...daaaaaaaayyyyyrrrrrrrrrr

Haha!

MacNStein · 06:35 AM

Jeff,

Sorry bud, your story just doesn't fit according to any experience that I've ever seen with Apple. I do know of one situation where a lady bought a "lemon" iBook (hey, it happens). But, after 3 major repairs in less than 9 months Apple gave her a brand new iBook (newer model) and she's been happy ever since. I work repairing/upgrading Macs EVERY day, so I know a great deal more than most regarding their poilicys and practices in this regard.

Sorry, I just don't buy your story. There must be a great deal more to it that what you've said. Or, you're just making all of this up. We don't have any proof and "text is cheap" here on the Web.

djjava · May 2, 2003, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Sorry, I just don't buy your story. There must be a great deal more to it that what you've said. Or, you're just making all of this up. We don't have any proof and "text is cheap" here on the Web.

i would have to agree. I find it hard to believe that after so many replacements that there were still problems. Something doesn't add up.

The other suggestion about taking a brand new and throwing it on Ebay would certainly be a viable option.

Needless to say, should some situation like that have happened to me... I'd certainly be bitter... and probably go a similar route. Isn't there a law that if you purchase a product and it fails or requires repair 3 times, the company is obliged to replace the new with a brand new one (the Lemon Law)??

Hope all works out.

macnnhelpme · May 2, 2003, 08:24 AM

Man, that's a bad deal. I hope you prevail in the end, and find it equally hard to believe that Apple isn't stepping up the plate here. Good luck to you and let us know how it goes!

Jeff Williams · May 2, 2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by djjava:
The other suggestion about taking a brand new and throwing it on Ebay would certainly be a viable option.

With one exception. Even if I am able to sell it for the price Apple sells them for, I will lose over one thousand dollars worth of equity. I cannot afford that. I wish I could, that solution would have solved this problem months ago.

Isn't there a law that if you purchase a product and it fails or requires repair 3 times, the company is obliged to replace the new with a brand new one (the Lemon Law)

Only for automobiles or RVs. IMHO, perhaps those laws should be expanded to include consumer electronics.

Vi0 · 03:01 PM

You waited too long to get rid of this problem. You should have sold the first or even second replacement powerbook they gave you. That's why selling it on ebay will cost you some money now. Although, I don't think selling a powerbook as a brand new unit will leave you $1000 in the red. It's much better than what you're doing now.

awcopus · May 2, 2003, 03:34 PM

"crap on his own face" bwwwwaaaahahahahaha

I actually woke up laughing this morning.

sac84371 · May 2, 2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by awcopus:
"crap on his own face" bwwwwaaaahahahahaha

I actually woke up laughing this morning.

Crying out loud. That is to funny.

NightEyes · May 2, 2003, 04:06 PM

busting a gut here imagining a dude crapping on his own face!

Jeff, just what do you hope to accomplish by posting your nightmare all over the web for the second time that I know of?

I've owned Apple systems since 1989 and have never had a hardware issue that Apple did not take care of.

That said, I thought they held onto Peter's PowerBook too long, but they did finally fix it and he's happy now.

AuPhalanx · May 2, 2003, 04:10 PM

Jeff!

I read about your troubles and, as our ex-President would say, I feel your pain. That being the case, I think that Apple dealt with you most fairly: they fixed and replaced your TiBook and even offered to keep replacing it. It may have made your life rough, but those are the perils of buying anything, be it a computer, a car, or even a pair of shoes.

With that said, I think that you will fair well in court, though. If worse come to worse, you will receive a new laptop; but, I think you will more than likely get your money refunded. The judge will hear your case and note that you were/are not satisfied and base his decision on that. If I were the judge, then that is what I would do.

I took notice that on your web page, you stated that Apple did not give you any special recognition for twenty years of purchases. Frankly, the way Apple fixed and replaced your machine points to the probability that you were in fact noticed as a long-time customer. I am certain that they have your history in a file; I am certain that they made reference to it; and in doing so, they did give you good service--a faulty machine, but good service.

I hope that you stay within the Mac Community. I really hope that you and Apple come to an agreement outside of Court and that in the end you get a fine working machine.

Have fun... Tony.

Appleman · May 2, 2003, 07:19 PM

My iMac Bondi Blue suffered from GLOD (Green Light Of Darkness) and I only understood this was a common problem after starting overhere at the forums. Cipher told me.
Although the warranty was more long finished, Apple replaced for free first the logic board and later the video board (well, not sure, but twice a card... :-) )
No hesitation, out of warranty, no questions asked, really very fair.

My Ti500 had a bad motherboard. They picked it up, they brought it home. Got it replaced in four days, for free.

Rubber feet were sent for free.

I have to say my experience with Apple Customer Service is extremely good.

It's Europe, can be different, but I can only say it has been good.

I do NOT understand you do not take their offer, which I think is more than good.
As an engineer I know even new stuff like logic boards, engines, whatsoever, come out of the box faulty sometimes. Murphy never sleeps.
They did what they could, their offer is acceptable,

itai195 · May 2, 2003, 07:31 PM

Hope everything is resolved acceptably for you

My personal experience is that it's best to bring in PowerBooks for repair to an Apple Store near you. The people at mine are extremely friendly, and they bent over backwards to get my PowerBook fixed once when I had to send it in THREE times to fix the same problem. It's harder for them to just ignore your problems when you're there, talking to them face to face.

Appleman · May 2, 2003, 08:28 PM

Since you are from Cupertino I guess you just go to Steve himself?

Jeff Williams · May 5, 2003, 08:27 PM

Well, today I finally received my PowerBook back from Apple Computer. True to their word, with my warranty voided for my supposed product tampering, the unit was not repaired, and as such was not functional. No surprises there.

What I did expect was some kind of documentation explaining that my warranty had been voided and explaining to me in detail exactly what I could have done to sabotage this computer. For the first time I have had the opportunity to see this so-called "charring" and I can say without a doubt that:

(1.) Yup, pretty obvious. Hard to miss these marks. Sure wish I had the presence of mind to look before sending it off to Apple. Personally, while I am not an engineer or computer repair specialist, I think something inside the computer caused them. Of course, I am not ruling out the possibility that Apple Computer may have intentionally done something to the computer in order to void the warranty. Do I have any proof of that? No... but neither do they that I did anything to it. So, it seems only fair that I keep that possibility open.

(2.) I have no clue what caused them.

I took some time and tried to take some photos to share with all of you today. They didn't turn out great, my digital camera is a nice one (Nikon CoolPix 5700) but doesn't do very good macro work in less than stellar lighting. I need some kind of remote release for the thing.

I will try taking pictures again later in the week if anyone is interested.

Here are the images:

http://williamsdesign.com/images/applecrap/char1.jpg

This is the large master shot the other images are cropped out of. You can clearly see the little yellow "attention" arrow a tech put on the RAM stick to point out the damage they claim was "unnatural" in nature and must be my fault, somehow.

http://williamsdesign.com/images/applecrap/char2.jpg

The main problem area again. If anyone has experience with a similar looking symptom, I would appreciate some info. Again, when Apple engineers first diagnosed the problem, they said THEIR failure to seat a RAM stick correctly caused the arc, which shorted out the unit. After I refused their settlement offer and indicated I would like them to repair the unit, and that I would persue a more appropriate settlement in small claims court, then their engineers came to a new and different conclusion.

http://williamsdesign.com/images/applecrap/char3.jpg

But here's the wierd part. There are also markings and discolorations on other parts of the interior, markings that look a lot more like what I would describe as arcing. These were NOT identified as problems by Apple. I sure would like to know what caused them.

Last thing, there are still a lot of people out ther who think I am some anti-Mac type who is just out trolling. Don't know what to tell you. Many have asked for proof, the best I can do at this moment in time is a copy of the court filing. So here you go:

http://williamsdesign.com/images/applecrap/filing.jpg

Details to follow as they become available.

icruise · May 5, 2003, 09:39 PM

Last thing, there are still a lot of people out ther who think I am some anti-Mac type who is just out trolling. Don't know what to tell you. Many have asked for proof, the best I can do at this moment in time is a copy of the court filing. So here you go:

http://williamsdesign.com/images/applecrap/filing.jpg

You might want to reconsider putting your address and phone number on the web.

iDORK · May 5, 2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Jeff Williams:
As some of you may or may not know, for the past several months I have been posting messages on this forum - and others across the web - regarding my struggle with Apple Computer resulting from the purchase of a defective Titanium PowerBook, and its' subsequent repairs and replacements. Over a period of 20 months, these units were replaced three times and repaired nearly a dozen times. I don't have an explanation as to exactly WHY this has occurred, I only know that is has, and that the experience has been both frustrating and obnoxious.

If you're so inclined to read about the full experience, please visit my website (http://williamsdesign.com/apple.shtml) and I will provide you with additional details. If not, we can pick up the story right here. I am now on my fourth Titanium PowerBook, which has failed. I returned it to Apple for service, and it came back to me non-operational. It was then returned to Apple Engineering in Elk Grove, CA.

When my defective computer was originally inspected last week by Apple, I was told that the damage was caused to the computer when a RAM chip was improperly seated by their repair staff. This, according to Robin Roberts (at the time my corporate executive relations contact) caused some arcing within the case, and there were clear marks on the inside where "charring" has occurred.

I must note that she went out of her way - to the extreme - to downplay the nature of this damage. Personally, I have had Macs for a long time, and I had a hard time believing that the problem could have possibly occurred in the way it was described to me, but then again - I use Macs because I don't WANT to have to be a computer expert, I just want to get stuff done. It's like my car. I can change the oil and do basic maintenance, but other than that, I just want to drive it. I have no interest in becoming a mechanic - or a computer hardware technician.

Regardless, an offer was made by Apple to replace the unit with ANOTHER Titanium PowerBook. I declined, because this would have been my fifth of the line, and I no longer want to deal with what I view as the inherent defects this model seems to suffer. Sue me, flame me, whatever - this HAS BEEN my PERSONAL and PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE. I asked for a CREDIT of my ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE so that I could purchase a different (yes, newer) model computer (hopefully one I would have fewer problems with), the 17" Aluminum PowerBook. I never (NEVER) asked Apple to cover the cost of the upgrade, I offered to do that myself.

Likewise, the 17" Aluminum PowerBook was - and still is - the ONLY comparable, non-titanium option available. Show me a 15" Aluminum, and I'll bite. If for no other reason, it will fit in my computer bag.

After this offer was refused, I gave Apple another option - a refund of the purchase price, which is prescribed by the Apple Warranty: "If a defect exists, at its option Apple will (1) repair the product at no charge, using new or refurbished replacement parts, (2) exchange the product with a product that is new or which has been manufactured from new or serviceable used parts and is at least functionally equivalent to the original product, or (3) refund the purchase price of the product."

Via the pit bull of the corporate executive relations division, Patrick Ekstrand, Apple again said no. Quite firmly, I might add. I then punted and asked Apple to repair the computer, and I would deal with the issue through Small Claims Court, as it was clear that I wasn't getting satisfaction through "normal" channels. I'm pretty sure they thought I was bluffing, but I filed that day.

On Monday of this week, I was *supposed* to receive my defective PowerBook back from Apple's repair center. When it did not arrive as promised, I did some investigating - only to discover the unit had been placed on an "Engineering Hold." Red alert, captain.

Today, three days later, I received a call from Nancy Laxson-Heighton, a project manager within Apple's legal department. She indicated that Apple engineers had gone over my computer again, and NOW determined that the arcing in question COULD NOT have occurred during any normal usage, and that it was their contention that this damage was caused by misuse or intentional sabotage of my computer. My warranty has been voided, and Apple will only repair the unit if I pay for that service and the related parts.

Of course, I categorically deny her baseless allegations, and I have sworn out out a legal affidavit to that effect today. This claim by Apple is, plain and simple, PURE FICTION. I'm sure the Apple zealot masses will use their claim as cannon fodder for a flame attack - whatever. I've been down that road before, and I know the truth.

As for Apple, I will see you in court. Specifically - May 21st at 9:30 AM. Bring your checkbook.

For the rest of you, please learn from my experiences. Apple is a large corporate entity and not unlike any other in the computer industry - or any other industry. If you think ours is a "different" lifestyle... or somehow superior beyond the (normally) rock-solid hardware and futuristic, ultra-stable OS - well quite frankly, you've been sold a bad bill of goods. If you call C.E.O. Steve Jobs by his first name (Yo, Steve!) or think for a second that he gives a rat's ass about anything other than separating you from your money... well, you're naive.

Yes, Apple Computers are normally well built, extremely reliable and not prone to failure. They have to be. They are slower and cost thousands more than comparable Windows boxes, and there has to be some kind of justification for that - reliability is it. Likewise, if everyone was having the same experience with Apple hardware as I am, the stock would be in the toilet (well, more so than it already is) and they would be having a fire sale at 1 Infinite loop in Cupertino.

Just be prepared, if you get a bad computer, or SEVERAL bad computers, expect do things Apple's way - or to bend over and grab your ankles. Apple will be more willing to do anything - divulge private information a la John Manzione - even create baseless and unproveable accusations - rather than deal with an actual problem. You don't like or agree with my views? That's your business. Just be a smarter consumer than I have been - know your rights and stand up for them. Apple's certainly not going to do that for you.

Caveat Emptor, my ass.

Was it really necessary to take it this far (to court)? I mean, you stated that it was Apple's option to either repair, replace, or refund you for the Powerbook. It was their option to choose repair or replace and not refund for whatever reason(s) to their liking. You shoud just take the newly replaced Powerbook despite it being your 5th - it may work just fine; end of the story.

I guess taking legal action is the only means to resolve this? It should be the last.

mousehouse · May 7, 2003, 08:26 AM

well, not to say i share your story but...

in the Netherlands, and probably in more of Europe as well, Apple doesn't do the repairs themselves. Here in NL there are 7 or 8 companies appointed by Apple as Support Partners or something like that.

I haven't had the best experience with them so far. Some are great, some suck royal ****. Unfortunate but true. Other than that Apple Tech Support has been wonderful. Contacted the service partner and actually made them do something, which is a good thing(tm).

All in all it probably works like all other things in life, and you pulled the short straw this time. I hope you can get your problems settled.