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justinf77 · May 21, 2003, 07:04 PM

Having a dilemma...

Should I sell this PowerBook in anticipation of the new AlBook? It is 1 ghz, 512 ram, SuperDrive model. I really like it, but am not sure of how rugged these things are.

I purchased the TiGlide from RadTech to "ruggedize" it some, not sure how well this will work. I want this machine to serve me well for 2 years. Are the hinges a big problem, for instance, do they become really loose after a while?

I admit, I am a bit of a nut when it comes to my computers. So, in your opinion, should I sell or should I keep? Basically what I am asking is do you think the new TiBooks are durable, good machines? Thanks!

jetta_gt · May 21, 2003, 07:24 PM

I'd sell it, I'm waiting for the 15" AIbook for the following reason:

1. I love Airport, I use ALL the time, at school, at home, at the coffee shop. The TiBook's current wireless preformance is simply unacceptable.

2. Bluetooth + Cell Phone = the future of mobile computing and personal information networks (forget your Palm).

3. From what I have seen of the 17", the AI series feels more solid than the 15" TiBook. The paint issue is also something to consider.

To be honest though, if Bluetooth was available as an internal add-on, i would get that, a little external airport antenea, and take my chances with the paint...

Speed is honestly not a big factor for me anymore, even the video work i do feels fast enough. Connectivity and build quality are more important to me...

ae86_16v · May 21, 2003, 07:53 PM

I just like the way how the Al looks. Just a smooth finish.

Like Jetta, I don't really need the speed. I am more of a looks kinda guy.

I hope that it has the new light up keyboard.

It is probably still gonna be another month or two before the new ones comes out. So I think I'll rather keep it for a while first. Unless you found someone that was going to pay a really good price for it.

I am using a G4/800 right now.

wallinbl · May 21, 2003, 08:19 PM

Good grief. If you like the computer and it serves your needs, then why on Earth would you sell it for a new one? Penis envy?

justinf77 · May 21, 2003, 08:25 PM

Yes.

Penis envy.

Oh ya, and DURABILITY, as I said in my original post. I want this machine to last me over 2 years.

eightoeight · May 21, 2003, 08:32 PM

I don't think there is a paint issue with the newer PowerBooks, I haven't heard too much fuss about it for a while.

shrink · May 21, 2003, 08:48 PM

I sold my 15" 1Ghz about a month ago to buy the 17". Both are awesome computers, but I do prefer the 17" mainly because of the design/finish, keyboard, built-in bluetooth, and noise level (I had the loud 15" fan). However, I can't say too much about durability which seems to be your biggest concern. I think I would give the edge to Al over Ti, but I don't think I have any specific evidence to back up that statement.

I am very happy I made the decision, but keep in mind it's a buyers' market right now for the 15". I hoped to get more for mine, but I only had 1-2 solid offers. The marketplace forum currently has about 2-3 15" 1Ghz PB's for sale.

wallinbl · May 21, 2003, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by justinf77:
Oh ya, and DURABILITY, as I said in my original post. I want this machine to last me over 2 years.

The Ti will do just fine. It's not going to fall apart. Just ask the people with the earlier Tis.

todrain · May 21, 2003, 10:20 PM

I have a TI 1ghz, and I'm not planning on upgrading until the 970s are in the PowerBooks. Sadly, the G4s days are numbered.

I don't think that durability-wise there would be much of a difference, other than the paint, or if you abuse the 15" screens (the hinge design does put more stress on the dual hinges if you twist the display)

As for airport extreme, come on.. unaceptable performance? Unless you're doing large data transfers between machines, speed is no better under 802.11g. Range might be another issue, but I have to say for about 90% of users, there isn't a problem.

Bluetooth could be a cool technology, but right now not enough devices support it to make it a must have. Maybe in a year.

If you can wait a year, hang on to the TI. By then, we will hopefully have 970 based PowerBooks and that will be worth the wait!

Lateralus · May 21, 2003, 10:24 PM

Sell.

Put it on eBay with a Buy It Now $100-200 less than the average Buy It Now price of other comparable Ti 1GHz auctions. That way, you'll be pretty much sure to sell before the 15" Al's hit.

PowerTower Fan · May 21, 2003, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by justinf77:
Yes.

Penis envy.

Oh ya, and DURABILITY, as I said in my original post. I want this machine to last me over 2 years.

If you're doing stuff to a laptop that causes it not to last at least 2 years, hardware defects adside, a Ti or an AI isn't gonna make a bit of difference. Decent care is what makes a laptop last, not just how its made. Unless there are big things your TiBook doesn't do that you really need, selling it now is silly.

justinf77 · May 21, 2003, 11:52 PM

Decision made.

Thanks for the input. I am going to keep the machine. It does everything I need, and besides, this is going to be the last TiBook version EVER. Something sentimental about that

I think the 15" AlBooks will be cool, but if I am happy with the TiBook now, and take good care of it, I am sure I will be happy with it later as well.

ae86_16v · May 22, 2003, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by wallinbl:
Good grief. If you like the computer and it serves your needs, then why on Earth would you sell it for a new one? Penis envy?

Yeah...because it looks better

. And I wanna use Bluetooth.

Mac Zealot · May 22, 2003, 04:53 AM

Apparently the current breed of tibooks are some really tough machines, according to a good friend of mine (who has the money to blow) he's given his a good beaten and still thinks it could last at least 4 or 5 years at that rate.

Not too bad.

I kinda like laptops with a life expectancy of 10 years with a modest amount of abuse tho (drops, etc)

Rubens · May 22, 2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by eightoeight:
I don't think there is a paint issue with the newer PowerBooks, I haven't heard too much fuss about it for a while.

Dude there is a serious paint issue with ALL tiBooks, i.e the fact that they are painted ! The Albooks are a BIG improvement in this area...

Eug · May 22, 2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Rubens:
Dude there is a serious paint issue with ALL tiBooks, i.e the fact that they are painted ! The Albooks are a BIG improvement in this area...

Perhaps, but the AluBooks still will scratch.

Personally, I don't see the point of selling. It's not as if you'd be gaining much by going with an AluBook 1.13 GHz, unless you MUST have Airport Extreme. Indeed, I don't think I'd bother with even a 1.33 GHz G4 plain-Jane 7457 either.

However, I'd consider upgrading next year to a 1.5 GHz G4 7457-RM (assuming that chip hasn't already been killed) or a 1.4 GHz PPC 970.

tonewheel · May 22, 2003, 11:27 AM

Had an original Ti500. Replaced it with the latest Ti Gig. The gig was an incredible machine, and it was (is) plenty rugged. Certainly much easier to grab (closed) with one hand and carry it around.

I sold the gig in April and got a 17. The only regret I have is minor...and that is sentimentality for the last of a breed. But hey, I don't miss my Mac Plus. I'll get over it.

The look of the 17, the incredible feel of opening up that screen every time, and the GORGEOUS, bright, sharp, crisp screen was worth the purchase price. The Ti gig screen is incredible. Apple did better with the 17. Simply a wonderful computer.

Eug · May 22, 2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by tonewheel:
The look of the 17, the incredible feel of opening up that screen every time, and the GORGEOUS, bright, sharp, crisp screen was worth the purchase price. The Ti gig screen is incredible. Apple did better with the 17. Simply a wonderful computer.

He's talking about a 15" for a 15", not a 15" to a 17".

Anyways, the 17" screen IS gorgeous, but the 15" screen is (slightly) brighter IMO. I've seen them side by side and with max brightness the 15" wins by a bit. The 17" is good though, and both are way better than the 12" AluBook's screen.

The 17" isn't an option for me though. Too big for my tastes. If I were to upgrade, it'd be to a 15" AluBook... but only after a year or two, and only if the speed is at least 50% faster.

iWrite · May 22, 2003, 12:00 PM

Hornet gave this information in the other thread and if it's to be believed, which it seems like it should, then I don't think getting out of the TiBook 1Ghz is necessarily a good idea:

Whoever thinks the Al15 rev A that is shipping any time soon (<2 months) will have a 970 is on a life threatening amount of crack

Lets look at what the Al15 may bring, if it is to come soon.. ie before the whole line is revised.

- The same 1ghz processor

- A larger screen (15.4") with a lower resolution (1280x800) if rumors are to be believed. ie, 2.6% more screen SIZE - with 6.4% LESS workspace on screen. If the 15.4 should have a screen res around 2.6% more to keep in line . In other words, a downgrade will happen

- Nvidia Geforce 440 Go. What a downgrade this will be... not only a slower card (see UT2k3 mac benchmark thread for more on this), but *no* support for pixel and vertex shaders. I guarentee you, this will exclude this system from future enhancements to OSX - possibly even as early as panther (Quartz Exxxtreme 2, now with pixel and vertex shader routines). There is an interesting discussion going on at arstechnica about future enhancements to Quartz Extreme - offloading more CPU work to the GPU (with the eventual goal of full Quartz 2D acceleration down the track). This will all have to be done with pixel and vertex shaders - which the Geforce 4 Go 420/440/460 do not support.

- A new design. Should look quite nice, but expect this to have a whole raft of "rev a" issues. Just a warning to those out there who want to buy a rev a machine. Just look at the issues the Al12 had (not saying anything bad about the Al12 - every apple rev a product ends up having quite a few problems - it is to be expected - so, consider that).

On the better side of things: Firewire 800, airport extreme, and probably DDR ram with an architecture system similar to that of the 17.

Every day that goes by, is another day of lessening chance that apple will revise the 15 before it does the whole line. I believe they want to keep the revisions in sync with each other. Especially considering the 15 cant jump to 1.2ghz or something while the 17 sits at 1.0.

Realistically, I predict the following:

No 970 in the powerbooks for the next revisoin. That cant be stressed enough - "No **** sherlock" as Tooki said

- 1.2ghz G4 in the 15 and 17
- 17" style architecture (DDR memory etc) across the board
- Radeon 9600 in the 15 and 17 (possibly in the 12 in a slower clocked/32MB VRAM version) - with pixel and vertex shader - which would be a *MUCH* better choice than the nvidia geforce 440 go.
- Release: July-Sept.

Think. Apple cant make the 15 jump before the 17 does. Apple cant make the 17 jump until it has been around for about 6 months. The 17 was vaporware released five months ago, however only really released/shipped what, 3, months ago? 2.5? 3 months from now sounds realistic for a product wide update.

And 970 laptops 12 months after 970 desktops - mid to late 2004.

Based on that information I'm not so sure it's a good idea to upgrade to the AlBook. What I've also heard is that the "base model" will be a combo drive (no superdrive) and it will be $2399. The "superdrive" model is going to be $2799. Supposedly the current TiBooks with Superdrive will be clearanced at $2599.

So, for $200 more you can have aluminum finish and have to settle for some items that are/were clearly superior in the 1Ghz Titanium.

I'd say stay with the TiBook 1Ghz Superdrive.

iWrite · May 22, 2003, 12:28 PM

Also, no ability to run Classic in the new systems.

spaced · May 22, 2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Also, no ability to run Classic in the new systems.

You can run Classic just fine on new systems. You just can't boot into OS 9.

iWrite · May 22, 2003, 12:48 PM

Uh, I just spoke to "Randy" at Apple who said it will NOT run Classic.

Maybe he's wrong? But I just called about a bad ac adapter and he said, "I understand that the next aluminum release will not run classic."

So, take it for what it's worth. May be right and may be wrong but if they're moving over to the 970, that would make sense.

schuey100 · May 22, 2003, 01:04 PM

I sold my 800mhz Ti, 60gig HD, 1gig Ram about a month ago. I got �1500 or $2000 for it. Best thing I did. I now have the new 17"Albook and it's superior in every way. It's solid, rugged looks better has a superb system bus etc etc. The old Ti's are good but nothing compared to the Albooks. Get the money for your Ti while you can.

Eug · 02:32 PM

Uh, I just spoke to "Randy" at Apple who said it will NOT run Classic.

Maybe he's wrong? But I just called about a bad ac adapter and he said, "I understand that the next aluminum release will not run classic."

So, take it for what it's worth. May be right and may be wrong but if they're moving over to the 970, that would make sense.

The "Randy" types typically know even less than the forum members here. With whom did you speak? If he's a low level tech or sales drone, he would have absolutely no idea what's gonna run on the new AluBooks, since Apple does not inform them about un-announced hardware. Unless he's a higher level Apple engineer or something, his statement is essentially irrelevant.

It's more than likely that Classic WILL run. OS 9 booting won't work however.

I now have the new 17"Albook and it's superior in every way. It's solid, rugged looks better has a superb system bus etc etc.

Just so nobody is misled, the system bus benefits are due to the 167 MHz speed, and NOT DDR. As has been rehashed numerous times on this forum, DDR cannot be utilized by the CPU. The DDR Xserve vs. SDR PowerMac benches show very little performance difference when the bus speed is identical. It'd be nice if the new 15" has a 167 bus though.

And I'll say again, the original poster was talking about 15" to 15" not 15" to 17". The new AluBook 15" WILL be superb, but "upgrading" is a completely different kettle of fish. If it's on the same 133 MHz bus, with a G4 running at 13% faster, with its lower res screen, etc. you'd be pretty hard pressed to justify losing all that extra coin for the "upgrade". Other factors could sweeten the deal though of course. YMMV.

iWrite · May 22, 2003, 04:38 PM

Randy Brooks, Tier 2 Apple Support. That's who I spoke to. Randy works with engineering frequently on problems -- like why we have one particular Powerbook whose AC adapter gets REALLY hot -- we're on the third one in three months that is melting where it inserts into the Powerbook.

TAZ · May 22, 2003, 04:52 PM

If its any conselation, my gen 1 400TiBk is now over 2 years old. Not a scratch, flake or ding. If you abuse it, Ti or Al aint gonna matter. Take a little care and it will last you a LOOOOOOOOOONG time.

urrl5201 · May 22, 2003, 04:58 PM

I sold my 667 DVI for the 17" and do not regret it. I think you should hold on to your 15" Ti though till you at least see how the land lays with the new 15" Aluminum. When the smoke cleared and I realized complaints were few with the 17" I made my move and am glad I did. I totally am happy with it except for the OS9 booting hystorectomy.

Eug · May 22, 2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Randy Brooks, Tier 2 Apple Support. That's who I spoke to. Randy works with engineering frequently on problems -- like why we have one particular Powerbook whose AC adapter gets REALLY hot -- we're on the third one in three months that is melting where it inserts into the Powerbook.

Hmmm... I guess you don't realize it's not good netiquette to post other people's personal info without their permission.

This is esp. true when you've exposed their mistakes...

MusicalTone · May 22, 2003, 05:06 PM

My Ti 15" SD 1Ghz is holding up fine. No scratches, excellent airport reception, quiet. Personally I think the Ti Books look much better than the Aluminium (admitedly I have only seen the 12"). More to the point, this is a computer we are taling about here, not some extra special frying pan with teflon coating. I am sure if you look after your kit you aint gonna notice much difference between the Ti or the Al. My advice is keep what you have got until you have had maxumum use out of it. You will surely take a big hit if you sell now and have to pay premium prices for a new AlBook, if and when it comes out (remember Apple has only said publicly they are very happy with the Ti book and have no plans to bring out a 15" Al). And what for, an aluminium as oposed to a Titanium case? Penis envy. More like my broad is a brunette so i'd really like a blonde ...

Mind you Apple does have a wicked marketing machine so we are garuanteed to lust after anything they bring out. Ah consumerism. Tosh!
Reminds me a lot of kids in a playground.

justinkim · May 22, 2003, 06:42 PM

My 1GHz combo is also holding up nicely, and the 400MHz TiBook I had before that also worked well as well. Aside from a couple of scratches, I never had a paint problem. I did have a slight hinge problem in the 400MHz machine that Apple fixed before it became much of a problem.

You have to have realistic expectations. These machines have a painted finish. If you haul your machine around (and as a consultant, I do that a lot), you're probably going to scratch or ding it eventually. Just be careful, invest in some extra screen cushions and maybe a screen protector.

These machines are made to be toted around (well, maybe except the 17"). What's the point of having one of these machines if you're afraid of scuffing the case?

Relax, be happy and do that mobile computing thing, baby!

iWrite · May 22, 2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Eug
Hmmm... I guess you don't realize it's not good netiquette to post other people's personal info without their permission.

"Netiquette?"

I didn't give out his social security number, home address, telephone number, extension, or anything else.

He works in a job where he speaks to HUNDREDS of people a week: THE PUBLIC.

Quit acting like he's in the federal witness protection program.

schk · May 22, 2003, 09:37 PM

I went through the same decision a few months ago. I ended up selling my 15" TiBook and will wait for the newer AlBook. I got lucky since I was able to sell my used PowerBook and break dead even for what I paid for. I knew I would want the newer 15" after seeing the 12" and 17" models. But mostly it was due to the fact that I would probably take a huge hit selling my TiBook after the new models were introduced.

The main reason I decided to wait for the new 15" AlBook was I really liked the their redesigned hinges. The hinges were the thing I was worried about most with my TiBook. I take extreme care of everything I own, and I felt the TiBook was fragile in some respects and I spent more time worrying about it, than fully enjoying it. However, that was my first Mac and I'm having serious Mac withdrawal issues now and am contemplating on buying a cheap iBook to hold me over until the new 15" is out, heh

solagratia1600 · May 22, 2003, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Eug:

Just so nobody is misled, the system bus benefits are due to the 167 MHz speed, and NOT DDR. As has been rehashed numerous times on this forum, DDR cannot be utilized by the CPU. The DDR Xserve vs. SDR PowerMac benches show very little performance difference when the bus speed is identical. It'd be nice if the new 15" has a 167 bus though.

I come across this point before but not really sure about the fact, does this mean the 17inch Pb doesn't take any advantage at all on the DDR Ram? Then why do they use DDR Ram then? Aren't we paying for something that we can't use in this case?

Eug · May 22, 2003, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by solagratia1600:
I come across this point before but not really sure about the fact, does this mean the 17inch Pb doesn't take any advantage at all on the DDR Ram? Then why do they use DDR Ram then? Aren't we paying for something that we can't use in this case?

Well, technically, the DDR SDRAM CAN be used by certain aspects which bypass the CPU. However, it turns out that for the most part, the extra bandwidth is not going to a provide a really significant boost to overall system performance. It's the CPU that's most important.

In the case of the current 7455, the CPU itself is incapable of using a double pumped bus, and hence the vast majority of the benefit of DDR is lost. The 7455 simply sees DDR as SDR.

In other words, YES, parts of the 17" can make use of the extra bandwidth, but NO, it doesn't really make a significant difference for real-life performance.

Why did they do it? Well, my guess is because DDR is cheap these days, it's better than nothing, and most importantly, it makes for great PR.

Why is the 17" slightly faster than the 15" then? Well, mainly because it uses a 167 MHz bus. The 15" has a 133 MHz bus.

The new Motorola 7457 doesn't address this issue either. However, the long rumoured 7457-RM does. Unfortunately, nobody knows when (or if) the 7457-RM will appear.

OTOH, the new IBM PowerPC 970 will have monster bandwidth. Should be quite a nice boost. Unfortunately, it (or a relative) likely won't appear in PowerBooks for quite some time.

solagratia1600 · May 22, 2003, 10:20 PM

Thanks Eug,

for the very useful info. Well, that's somewhat a dissapointment, somewhat misleading too, its DDR Ram, but it is not fully utilised. But is this the case just for the 17inch PB, or is this the same with the Powermacs, (1.25 dual and 1.42 dual)?

thanks Eug

QUOTE]Originally posted by solagratia1600:
I come across this point before but not really sure about the fact, does this mean the 17inch Pb doesn't take any advantage at all on the DDR Ram? Then why do they use DDR Ram then? Aren't we paying for something that we can't use in this case? [/QUOTE]

Eug · May 22, 2003, 10:27 PM

Same DDR issue with the PowerMacs. However, the PPC 970 may appear in the second half of 2003 in those (and/or the Xserve).

A dual 1.8 GHz PPC 970 with a 900 MHz bus would be quite nice.

solagratia1600 · May 22, 2003, 10:50 PM

hmm....is it a comfort to know that its not only the macs that are underutilising the DDR Rams or the PCs are ahead of Apple in regard to this?

Yes, the PPC 970 sounds like a long awaited power machine.

Originally posted by Eug:
Same DDR issue with the PowerMacs. However, the PPC 970 may appear in the second half of 2003 in those (and/or the Xserve).

A dual 1.8 GHz PPC 970 with a 900 MHz bus would be quite nice.

Eug · May 22, 2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by solagratia1600:
hmm....is it a comfort to know that its not only the macs that are underutilising the DDR Rams or the PCs are ahead of Apple in regard to this?

PCs are designed to make use of DDR. So yes, PCs are ahead of Macs here (for now). 800 MHz (200 MHz quad-pumped) PC motherboards and CPUs are already available.

solagratia1600 · May 22, 2003, 11:02 PM

Bummer,

thanks for the useful info. Eug.

Originally posted by Eug:
PCs are designed to make use of DDR. So yes, PCs are ahead of Macs here (for now). 800 MHz (200 MHz quad-pumped) PC motherboards and CPUs are already available.

justinf77 · May 23, 2003, 12:01 AM

Wow, never expected so many replies. I am definitely going to keep my TiBook.

I think I forgot to mention I am a new Mac user. If it is "penis envy," as several have claimed, it is just because I am so damn excited to own a Mac. I want to buy all of them!

But of course, I cannot, and now that I realize this TiBook is going to be my machine for a while, I can settle down and just enjoy it. Sometimes I forget these are computers we are talking about

MusicalTone · May 23, 2003, 03:41 AM

Yeah, can be a bit like beautifull women! (or men for the ladies). Once you've had one for a while you inevitably start lusting after the latest model, regardless of how your current partner is functioning.... large corporations know very well that men are particularly vulderable in this respect, and marketing departments are geared up to take full advantage - will an endless line of upgrades and new models, each designed to lead you astray (or at least part with your cash).

iWrite · May 23, 2003, 04:32 AM

This review from Barefeats is worth reading -- and the two links at the bottom of his review on the main page that he refers to are also worth reading.

RMXO · May 23, 2003, 06:08 AM

i would keep it. its the last of its kind. gonna me a momento.

MacNStein · May 23, 2003, 07:20 AM

The latest Giga-Ti's are great machines and not nearly as fragile in the hinge and paint depts as the previous Ti's. Defnitely keep it, it'll be a great system for you for many years to come.

Not to mention the bugs that will appear in any product's Rev A cycle. The Rev B 15" will be the "machine to get" when it comes out, if you need that kind of screen real estate on a portable, but that'll be 8-9 months from now.

iWrite · May 23, 2003, 07:32 AM

I agree.

I have to say that my current 1Ghz Titanium is THE best Powerbook I've EVER owned.

And I buy a new Powerbook just about every six months.

I've owned 6 Titaniums before this one and every single one of them had problems -- but the worst problem was the peeling paint on every system.

Not this one. This one has been perfect. My only complaint is that it has a white "blob" at about 11 o'clock on the screen but Apple says they'll give me a new LCD for it if I send it in. Got the box and everything but haven't sent it in just yet. Guess I should do it. My son (10) has a new iBook 800Mhz (14-inches) that I just bought him and he loves it and I don't mind working on it either. It's a sweet machine. Guess I'll have to work on that for the time being.

Anyway, I say to get the Titanium 1Ghz or if you already have it, KEEP IT.

He's right: The new machines will have problems. Get a Rev. B if you're going to get it.

On the other hand, I think the 1Ghz Titaniums are going to be a classic and I'd keep it. Look at the G4 Cubes: They're selling for about 75% of what they were originally worth on eBay. The 450Mhz systems still bring close to $1000!

Well, going fishing. It's a beautiful day down here in South Florida. Later!

theolein · May 25, 2003, 05:22 PM

Hell, all this fuss over the Powerbook! I just bought a used 667TiBook to compensate for my Mac withdrawal feelings caused by working with Dell laptops whose screens have such high resolutions that you can't read them. That and WinXP have made me "switch back" so to speak. This machine is beautiful. OSX runs like a dream, OS9 runs like a dream. I am going to keep this computer forever just for sentimental reasons. The looks of this machine, it's size (I can fit it inside my bag), and weight (the Dell I have weighs over 4 kilos) and the fact that it's made of Titanium are wonderful. In a year or so I'll get one of those 970 Powerbooks that will be out by then, but I can wait.