[iWrite]

Saw this at CNN this morning. It discusses the great success the state of Maine has had in teaching by using iBooks Maine bought earlier this year this year.

Really good article because it points out that they're buying another 17,000 next year.

I almost feel like moving to Maine!

[Eug]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Saw this at CNN this morning. It discusses the great success the state of Maine has had in teaching by using iBooks Maine bought earlier this year this year.

Really good article because it points out that they're buying another 17,000 next year.

I almost feel like moving to Maine!

As much I like the idea of a computer for every student, I think Maine should consider trying harder to get its budget in order first. 1.2 billion overdrawn last year... What's its debt?

[iWrite]

Sure, Maine may be in debt, but ALL of the states are in debt.

California is bankrupt -- and it's schools are suffering because they put education was deemed less important than other programs. Oregon had to close school earlier this year because they cut education before anything else. Maine may be in debt but at least they're still putting education at the top of their list of priorities. Children are the future and it's important to educate our children.

But, that's not the point. The point is that Maine invested in Apple and Apple's iBooks. That's great for Apple and it's even better that they're having success using Apple's products.

If Apple was able to get a few more contracts like the one with Maine, Apple would be doing a lot better and good press like the article up at CNN is a great thing.

[Eug]

A good education system doesn't mean that there must be 20000 laptops for the students.

A $1.2 billion budget deficit might not be a big deal in the greater scheme of things, but it really depends on how much Maine's debt is. Not that I necessarily agree with my government's policies, but it's at least managed to have 5 balanced budgets (or surpluses) in a row. Mind you, we have something like CAD$110 billion debt that needs to be serviced.

Education is important, but I suspect there might be better ways to spend the money even on education than laptops for everyone. US$40 million bux goes a long way for education.

I'm a relative lefty when it comes to gov't spending, but to be quite honest I would have opposed this purchase, unless Apple gave them a 40% discount or something.

[iWrite]

Apple DID give them a discount.

Obviously the laptops are helping their students.

Why turn this into a thread about how Maine shouldn't be spending their education funds on laptop computers for education?

[mrmister]

Having grown up in Maine, and being very well acquainted with the iBook program I think I can safely say your concerns are valid, Eug, but in this case don't really apply. They received massive discounts, and the program is already paying for itself by allowing the Maine Dept of Ed to qualify for three other big grants, based on the publicity and results generated by the iBook program so far. It's been a winning gamble.

[iWrite]

mrmister:

Do you know why they chose Apple specifically for their laptops? I mean, I would also have chosen iBooks if I were the person in charge of the decision simply because of the ease of networking the learning curve of Mac OS, but I was wondering if there was more to it.

It's been an uphill battle down here where I live to get the school district to even consider Macs. They state that they're "simply too expensive when they can buy Dells for a lot less." I've donated a number of Macs to local school computer labs in an effort to entice them, but to no avail. They continue to use Dells.

Funny thing, is, however is that the people running the labs say that the kids and teachers both will wait or come back to use the iMacs or eMacs when there are PCs available. It's the administration that nixes the purchase of Macs.

[Eug]

Originally posted by mrmister:
Having grown up in Maine, and being very well acquainted with the iBook program I think I can safely say your concerns are valid, Eug, but in this case don't really apply. They received massive discounts, and the program is already paying for itself by allowing the Maine Dept of Ed to qualify for three other big grants, based on the publicity and results generated by the iBook program so far. It's been a winning gamble.

Good point from someone (sort of) on the inside. I wonder how much of this they knew in advance. They probably had a good idea that more money might be on the way for them.

How much was the discount anyway? Where were the additional grants from?

How much is this going to cost on a bi-yearly basis? (They need to keep refreshing the laptops.) What software did they get?

[Lebensmüde]

Originally posted by Eug:
Good point from someone (sort of) on the inside. I wonder how much of this they knew in advance. They probably had a good idea that more money might be on the way for them.

How much was the discount anyway? Where were the additional grants from?

How much is this going to cost on a bi-yearly basis? (They need to keep refreshing the laptops.) What software did they get?

Party pooper!

[mrmister]

The discount worked out to be about 50%...I don't know how much it costs yearly, but the rates are set for the next seven years.

The additional grants include two federal ones and two private-sector grants, all related to technology in the classrooms. I sent an email to my friend who worked on the project to see if he can tell me the specifics. Maine has a big brain-drain problem, and this program is seen as key in reversing that trend--time will tell.

I know they all run OS X, and I think they all have standard installs of iBook software--I'm not certain what other software individual schools are using offhand.

[Eug]

The discount worked out to be about 50%

Hmmm... That's a good deal. Even more than my 40% number. Makes this look better than I'd originally thought.

Maine has a big brain-drain problem, and this program is seen as key in reversing that trend--time will tell.

Hmmm... Better education? Maybe. Solution to brain drain? Maybe not. I suspect the same reasons to leave will remain. Except now a few more will go to California as computer geeks.

What's the reasoning making the educators think that more computer-assisted education will decrease the brain drain problem?

[iWrite]

This is turning into a discussion of mental masturbation.

I guess Maine should do nothing. Should let their students use 10-year old textbooks. What's the point of new information? Forget any idea of teaching kids how to use a computer -- let 'em use a typewriter and a good old 20-year old encyclopedia. Who cares how they do on an SAT compared to the rest of the nation? What do they need an education for anyway?

I mean, Eug, with your perspective, what's the point of even sending them to school? Let me ask you, are you a school administrator? A politician? Social worker with a master's degree? What are your credentials for giving us your opinion?

You're trying to (apparently) convince all of us that Maine's decision was a questionable one at best.

I disagree and apparently the students are doing well, so I daresay that the administators and the governor of Maine would disagree, but apparently you want to prove to *someone* that it's a poor decision with a questionable outcome.

I have to wonder about people who can take a "feel-good" situation and try to turn it into something negative.

[iWrite]

Also, Eug, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I am wondering why you have such a negative attitude. You're obviously very intelligent, but you're very negative.

???

[Eug]

Originally posted by iWrite:
This is turning into a discussion of mental masturbation.

I guess Maine should do nothing. Should let their students use 10-year old textbooks. What's the point of new information? Forget any idea of teaching kids how to use a computer -- let 'em use a typewriter and a good old 20-year old encyclopedia. Who cares how they do on an SAT compared to the rest of the nation? What do they need an education for anyway?

I mean, Eug, with your perspective, what's the point of even sending them to school? Let me ask you, are you a school administrator? A politician? Social worker with a master's degree? What are your credentials for giving us your opinion?

You're trying to (apparently) convince all of us that Maine's decision was a questionable one at best.

I disagree and apparently the students are doing well, so I daresay that the administators and the governor of Maine would disagree, but apparently you want to prove to *someone* that it's a poor decision with a questionable outcome.

I have to wonder about people who can take a "feel-good" situation and try to turn it into something negative.

? Take it easy man. It's just my opinion as a MacNN'er. It's always been my opinion that computers are great, but technology alone doesn't solve the world's ills.

If it's successful, it's great. I've read an article previously echo'ing what I've been saying, though. The question is, which perspective is right? I dunno. Indeed, that's why I'm asking the questions. (I have no statements so far saying this is doomed to failure.)

And what's wrong with textbooks? I learned how to read that way, with proper help from the teachers. But no we had computers too. It's just that we didn't all have computers to take home. It would have been a bonus, but it sounds more like luxury than necessity. If Maine could afford it then great, but from the sounds of it, that's questionable. The discounts from Apple would help greatly though, and kudos to them.

Don't know about Maine, but around here I think the schools would be better off with better sports facilities and upkeep of the buildings than computers. Perhaps Maine's schools are in better shape.

And I still don't see how computers in high school would address the brain drain problem.

[Graymalkin]

I think Maine's descision to put computers in their middle schools is an excellent idea. To survive as even an arts major in college you need at least some knowlege of computers. Just about any job that will make you a living wage is going to require computer use as well. Knwoing how to use a computer, even marginally will get them farther than not knowing how to useo ne at all. A child who can't read or lacks basic math skills is going to be out of luck in the job market. The same goes for even rudimentary computer skills.

If a school has twenty five computers in a lab and four hundred students needing to use them there is a serious problem. That is sixteen students per computer or 112 minutes per week a student could use a computer. That comes to about 64 hours per year a student could use a computer. If they have an hour long English class they are getting 180 hours per year of formal English teaching. An hour of English homework a night is going to double that exposure. That is 3 to 6 times the exposure to English as to computer use in our theoretical school.

In college your working knowlege of English (at least in the US) is pretty important. If you can't write a coherent essay you'll likely fail lots of classes. Improper grammar and spelling is going to degrade your performance and leave you with a low GPA. Ergo, English is an important skill for students entering college. In college however, professors want the essays you've masterfully written to be readable. They also want particular formatting and references. You also need the ability to peroply save the work you've done. Without the abilities to do this you will either do poorly or fail outright in your classes. An improperly formatted or referenced essay is either trashed or handed back to you without a grade. An essay that was never turned in because your "printer was broken" is going to get a big fat F. Therefore it stands to reason computer knowlege in college is at least as important and useful as your knowlege of the English language.

If you want to teach students to do as well on a computer as they do in English you need to have them spend as much time on a computer as they do in English. For that you can't share 25 computers among 400 students. You need along the lines of 80 computers to give 400 students an hour of use per week. If you incorporate more learning with the computers they will need much more access to them. Two hours a day working on a computer would require a lab of 160 computers. That of course doesn't take into account teachers needing or wanting more computer time for particular projects. Scheduling use for a single lab a pain in any school.

Aside from computers for the students this program is also getting all 241 schools wireless networks and helpdesk and troubleshooting support. The teachers also get a computer for their personal use. If the teachers get as much computer time as the students they are going to be able to make much better use of them. A couple pictures off the handy dandy interweb, some text taken from a PDF textbook and our friend Keynote or AppleWorks and you've got a really nice presentation on the Franco-Prussian war. PyMOL can make some extraordinarily cool biological presentations. 3D graphing applications make trigonometry much more interesting to look at. Electronic gradebooks are easier to secure and back up then paper ones and also mathematically verifiable.

Way to go Maine.

[Eug]

That makes sense Graymalkin, but I wonder how true the reading and writing part of that will be. Just for the hell of it, I read a series of essays written for a 100 level history class my father taught. (I was reading a book on a related topic at the time.)

I can guarantee you that the word processed ones had just as bad grammar as the typewritten and handwritten ones.

But I agree that having one's own computer does tend to make one more computer savvy than someone who doesn't.

25 computers for 400 students is too little obviously. 100 computers for 400 students is more manageable however. Mind you, if you can get 400 computers ultra-cheap it's hard to argue with that though. It seems that Apple might have given them stuff below cost and Maine was able to capitalize on that, and in the process get other grants too. If that's the case, I'd strongly consider it too.

I made the mistake of assuming that Maine paid for everything (including consulting, setup, and administration) at full educational prices. That would be a huge expense.

[yoyoman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eug:
That makes sense Graymalkin, but I wonder how true the reading and writing part of that will be. Just for the hell of it, I read a series of essays written for a 100 level history class my father taught. (I was reading a book on a related topic at the time.)

I can guarantee you that the word processed ones had just as bad grammar as the typewritten and handwritten ones.

But I agree that having one's own computer does tend to make one more computer savvy than someone who doesn't.

25 computers for 400 students is too little obviously. 100 computers for 400 students is more manageable however. Mind you, if you can get 400 computers ultra-cheap it's hard to argue with that though. It seems that Apple might have given them stuff below cost and Maine was able to capitalize on that, and in the process get other grants too. If that's the case, I'd strongly consider it too.

I made the mistake of assuming that Maine paid for everything (including consulting, setup, and administration) at full educational prices. That would be a huge expense. [/QUOTE

50% is hella cheep. Even i?_apple is loosing money its great marketing. Since school is the future for kids and looking at a school with lots of apple computers. Just great marketing. Money or no money for apple. In cali at the school I worked for the discount was only about 20 to 30% discounted. We stil have the show imacs with 500mhz 5 e macs thats about it. they still have pc's cause of the real world but lots of problems with them. They got the pc's for free for marketing but even then. Mac's have all the main programs out there any way for the real world. Only a few apps but those aren't a big deal. with out comps where would we be. Even the super market uses computers for the cash regesters. cars use cpu chips. Sports are nice to but not every one has that physically ability. Computers you really don't need to be athletic. Just creative. More macs = better marketing and even if apple looses some money I still think its a win win situation.

[iWrite]

Now you've got a great idea, Eug: Sports facilities. Our son's school and the neighboring middle school just spent a lot of money putting in a state-of-the-art sports facility here: Rollerblading rink and area for hockey, basketball hoops, playground, raquetball courts, soccer fields, and across the street are baseball fields.

I'm fairly conservative when it comes to throwing money away on speculation -- except when it comes to education.

I'd say that $33 million on a gamble to see if it improves students' grades and learning curve because of computer purchases is worth the money.

My son has a 14-inch iBook and you know what? He's very proud of it and he loves to get on it and work on his homework. He takes it all over the house. I've had that kid on computers since he was 3 years old and he started kindergarten in the public school gifted program and now, going into the 5th grade, he's still in the public school gifted program.

This is the deal though: He's not a genius or that much smarter than any other kids...but he does have enthusiasm for learning. That's what sets him apart and keeps his grades up and his attention span good and makes him a kid that the teachers like to teach.

I'd say that the key to successful teaching and learning on the behalf of students is enthusiasm and motivation, plain and simple. If a child wants to learn then he'll do well.

If Maine inspired students to want to learn by bringing notebook computers into their classes then I think that's great. Some students will simply like the novelty of having iBooks to use and others will actually use them as tools to further themselves, but the point is that they're gaining computer and research skills along the way.

[beefstu01]

Just to chime in my half cent...

I got a 1500 on my SAT, and most of my learning has been from books. Don't get me wrong... the iBooks are great, and there are a lot of things one can do on a computer. Hell, I plan on using my PowerBook a lot in college, just don't credit a lot of learning to laptops. Ultimately, it comes from the student's willingness to learn, and the quality of teachers in that student's school. I had on teacher who really inspired me to learn, and that inspiration had me learn and learn and learn, and now I'll be off to Cornell in the fall.

iBooks are great, but the spark of the love of learning is greater than all of the iBooks in the world put tgether.

Go Maine though... I wish my school could have done this.

[iWrite]

That's awesome! Congratulations! --->

I agree with you, but I also see the value in teaching kids how to use computers.

I remember interviewing at a couple of colleges and one of the admissions deans asked me, "So, what would you say your most important class in high school was? The one that you learned the most from?"

I'd always say, "It would have to be Typing 101. Because I learned how to type now I can write and type papers."

It was a skill that I learned that I've put to good use for the rest of my life. Now I type about 70wpm -- better than some of the secretaries.

I went through college and I didn't write my papers on computers. I wrote them on word processors. I remember spending hours in the library researching and writing them out in longhand and then typing them up on a word processor.

1500 on your SAT is really great. Cornell is a great school too.

[Graymalkin]

The real price of any computer is its TCO, not merely the sticker price of the unit on the shelf. It's been proven time and again that the TCO on a Mac is often signifigantly lower than that of a PC, this is especially true in larger installations. The TCO is the most important price consideration for any institutional buyer who is going to amortize the cost of the equipment over several years. For a true TCO calculation you also need to figure in the support cost over the amortization period.

Let's theorize. Say our theoretical school wants to institute student home directories that live on a central server. This would allow students to access their personal projects anywhere on campus and allow access from an internet portal hosted by the district. With a 100 Dell network this is going require Microsoft's server suite to attach the Windows XP clients to. For the Windows 2003 Enterprise you're going to shell out $3,999 with 25 CALs. A CAL is a Client Access License, a license saying 1 user can access that software product. For every 20 CALs you purchase that is another $799. A little math tells us that JUST server software costs will run you $18,980 up front. Add to this a couple grand worth of high class server software and you're looking at $23,000+ for only 400 students at a school. Add a site license for the clients (XP Pro) and you've got even more cash out to just Microsoft. For a fraction of that you can pick up an XServe and a RAID that does the exact same thing and for as many students as the hardware will allow. Those $500 Dells lose a lot of their value when you want to do more than type on them with the provided OEM software.

[iWrite]

Good job, Graymalkin.

[mrmister]

"What's the reasoning making the educators think that more computer-assisted education will decrease the brain drain problem?"

Cold and simple, really--by giving Maine students access to the iBooks, it plays really well in pitches to bring tech support and telephone support jobs to Maine. They have had a lot of successes lately with MBNA and other phone centers, because the gov't gives them what they want and the labor is cheap.

It's cynical, but that's the short-term benefit. Longer term...well, you'd have to experience the Maine school program, but any technology is a big upgrade for a lot of these kids.

It's no magic bullet, but in this case it gives them notoriety. When people notice, things start happening.

[Graymalkin]

From what friends have told me about Maine it is a place where having a computer is pretty rare outside of a bigger city. Computers in schools are just as rare and internet connections moreso. Companies looking for people with computer skills are going to gravitate to areas where there's a high expectation of computer literacy. Thus they would likely avoid most parts of Maine. Anyone living in Maine with computer skills is likely going to move in order to find a good job, either out of state or from a smaller town to one of the cities. Either way the local economies are going to be heavily affected by the migration.

If Maine's school system can start spitting out graduates with a modicum of computer literacy they can bring in the business of more technologically friendly companies. This would mean people seeking higher paying and more technically demanding jobs wouldn't have to move to find such jobs. This is a benefit to the state and regional economies. In a town of 30,000 people, a hundred families pulling in nice salaries goes an extraordinarily long way. By adding computers to the school curriculum the state can retain more of its technically inclined residents and thus prevent "brain drain".