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speirsfr · Jun 16, 2003, 03:46 AM

So I'm already on my second 17" powerbook, Apple having replaced the first unit because of the keyboard sizzle. The second unit displayed exactly the same problem, yet Apple are now saying that the noise is 'within acceptable tolerances'.

So, I'm just about to call the Apple store and arrange a refund. I'll wait for Rev. B or the post-WWDC 15" model. The noise was just so annoying and constant, I found myself instead of working just sitting thinking "that noise is really annoying - I wish it would go away". Having spent as much as I have done, leaving the processor permanently on 'reduced' speed is a pretty unacceptable option. It's disappointing, because otherwise this is an awesome machine.

I just hope that they'll allow me to re-use my ADC discount on whatever I buy instead.

MusicalTone · Jun 16, 2003, 04:02 AM

Youve made the right choice. It really is unacceptable that a product that cost so much should have this problem.

AssassyN · Jun 16, 2003, 05:13 AM

Ouch, that's pretty bad. Escp. considering your ADC Discount is a once-in-a-lifetime deal, I highly doubt you'll get to "re use" that on any other machine. I wouldn't return it, I'd sell it & use the cash to get the post-WWDC 15" PB.

speirsfr · Jun 16, 2003, 05:19 AM

Yeah, I talked to the Apple Store and they won't let me reuse the discount on another purchase, so no refund there.

My new plan is to keep on returning the machine until I get one that doesn't sizzle. If I have to get a new machine every week until Rev B ships, that's their problem.

Mastrap · Jun 16, 2003, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by speirsfr:

My new plan is to keep on returning the machine until I get one that doesn't sizzle. If I have to get a new machine every week until Rev B ships, that's their problem.

Good man. Alternatively maybe sell it? You should make more than you've paid for it and just wait for rev B or the new 15"?

Burke · Jun 16, 2003, 07:10 AM

Exactly what is this "sizzle"?

speirsfr · Jun 16, 2003, 07:18 AM

The 'sizzle' sounds like a quiet electrical arcing noise coming from around the F5-F7 key area. It would seem that some units are more affected by it than others. My two units so far have had it very badly - it makes listening to music and watching DVD a miserable experience because, like a lot of white noise, once you notice it, you can't un-notice it.

It can be quietened to barely audible by setting the processor speed to 'reduced' in Energy Saver prefs, but that's an unacceptable fix for such an expensive machine. Frankly, I'm amazed that Apple consider the noise 'acceptable'.

MusicalTone · Jun 16, 2003, 07:27 AM

Apple make great products but there aftersales support is very poor. The should have honoured their money back garnuantee and reinstated your discount and given you some vouchers for the inconvenience. These are not pocket calculators we are buying.

djjava · Jun 16, 2003, 07:37 AM

you must have super-human hearing... i know there is a sizzle in my PB17, but i only hear it if there is complete, and i mean COMPLETE silence, or i stick my ear to the keyboard. must be bad luck.

speirsfr · Jun 16, 2003, 07:41 AM

Mine must be worse than yours, djjava. I can clearly hear it over iTunes and DVDs. I can hear it in the next room (with the intervening doors open). I also have a Quicksilver 800 running continuously which doesn't mask it.

I do have very mild tinnitus, which I've heard makes you more sensitive than normal to white noise, but I'm not certain about that.

Karim · Jun 16, 2003, 07:51 AM

I can hear mine sizzling away but only if my ear is too close to the keyboard to do anything useful with the Powerbook in normal situations.

In complete silence, yes I hear it, but I've gotten used to it because alot of laptops (even non-Apple's) do it.

When I had the 1GHZ Tibook the fan noise drowned out the sizzling.

The 17" is virtually silent as far as fan noise or hard drive noise is concerned

The noise seems to be part of the game of having >1" thick notebooks.

RooneyX · Jun 16, 2003, 09:09 AM

I don't get this sizzle. Just the fan noise when it comes on.

Jacket · Jun 16, 2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by speirsfr:
So I'm already on my second 17" powerbook, Apple having replaced the first unit because of the keyboard sizzle. The second unit displayed exactly the same problem, yet Apple are now saying that the noise is 'within acceptable tolerances'.

So, I'm just about to call the Apple store and arrange a refund. I'll wait for Rev. B or the post-WWDC 15" model. The noise was just so annoying and constant, I found myself instead of working just sitting thinking "that noise is really annoying - I wish it would go away". Having spent as much as I have done, leaving the processor permanently on 'reduced' speed is a pretty unacceptable option. It's disappointing, because otherwise this is an awesome machine.

I just hope that they'll allow me to re-use my ADC discount on whatever I buy instead.

the only time i hear a sizzle on mine is when i put my ear up to it... hmmm.. weird.

djjava · Jun 16, 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by speirsfr:
Mine must be worse than yours, djjava. I can clearly hear it over iTunes and DVDs. I can hear it in the next room (with the intervening doors open). I also have a Quicksilver 800 running continuously which doesn't mask it.

I do have very mild tinnitus, which I've heard makes you more sensitive than normal to white noise, but I'm not certain about that.

use the built in mic and record this, post it up for us.. i gotta hear this!

ericwass · Jun 16, 2003, 11:14 AM

Fo' sizzle, my nizzle!

This seems to be a long running theme with Apple - cutting edge products that don't have all the kinks worked out: G4 MDD fan noise, Pismo LG DVD/CD failures, iPod battery issues, PB heat issues, hinge problems, etc., etc., etc. The worst part is how they often deny, deny, deny until the chorus becomes too loud to ignore. Nevertheless, they're the best game out there and I've learned the joy of AppleCare.

speirsfr · Jun 16, 2003, 11:58 AM

OK, so I placed a mic above the keyboard and switched the processor speed between Reduced and Highest a couple of times. The track starts with it on Reduced, then you can hear my mouse clicks as I switch it between Reduced and Highest. The track ends on 'Reduced'.

Download the track Sizzling17.mp3 from http://homepage.mac.com/fraserspeirs

jfischetti · Jun 16, 2003, 12:18 PM

I can definatly hear something changing as you click, but Damn! it's not as loud as fan or a drive read/write which are evident on other Desktops.

you must have hearing like a dog to really be bothered by that.

TAZ · Jun 16, 2003, 01:06 PM

Man, I cant hear a thing. I turned up the sound on my computer to full and still couldnt hear a thing. Your ears must be awesome.

Anybody ever figure out what the cause of the noise is?? Its obviously NOT the keyboard as processor speed would have little influence on the keyboard. Anyone know if there are any secondary cooling fans that can be turning or weather they just opted to keep the fan turning at a lower rpm when the processor is turned on full blast rather than a simple on off thing.

melman101 · Jun 16, 2003, 02:06 PM

I clearly heard the difference in that MP3 file. That would definitely annoy me. I hope everything works out for you

Mel

troyw2000 · Jun 16, 2003, 02:33 PM

I recieved my PB17 last week, and it does not exhibit this 'sizzle' behavior. I have put many hours on it, some in dead quiet - and I've never heard it. As a matter of fact, this is probably the quietest laptop I've ever owned.

Is Apple giving you refurb'd replacements?

The model # of my PB17 is A1013 (if that's helpful).

wanderlust · Jun 16, 2003, 02:49 PM

I heard the sound on your mp3. I'd return it as well. Just to let you know, my 17" is quiet as a mouse 99% of the time (except for the occasional fan, which is much quieter than any other powerbook I've owned). Maybe once a week I hear a little squeaking during certain high-process times, but it's very rare, lasts only a couple of seconds and is certainly not unacceptable. I would, however, do something about your situation. We paid enough for these things!

leffo · Jun 16, 2003, 03:23 PM

I bought a Dell laptop a couple of years ago that showed exactly the same behaviour. I listened to your MP3 and immediately recognised the sound. I returned the computer and got a new one but it was the same thing with that one. I had a Dell technican over twice and he replaced almost everything on the laptop but to no avail. I returned the second one and opted for a refund. A year or so later I bought a IBM laptop. Same noise. I returned it. Over the years I've come to realise that it's quite common among laptops and apparently the sound comes from (believe it or not) the processor. I'm glad my hunt for the perfect laptop led me to Apple. My iBook is dead silent

irus · Jun 16, 2003, 03:47 PM

You're correct, leffo! It is indeed the CPU making this noise. This problem is present in varying degree in most computers. Some machines have better design and relatively improved sound insulation, but granted you find a quiet place, such as an empty library, you will hear the "sizzle" nonetheless.

On related note, some early TiBooks had a vibrating inverter in the LCD, which caused buzzing noise that could get to be quite annoying.

Rus

jpyrett · Jun 16, 2003, 05:18 PM

Did you try making sure the plug is grounded? Are you using fluorescent lights? Maybe your wife is using a vibrator in the other room? Did you try another location?

speirsfr · Jun 16, 2003, 05:21 PM

jfischetti: While the sizzle may not be as loud as the laptop's fan or the SuperDrive, it is maddeningly constant, which is my main complaint. Also, it's such a sharp, disturbing, noise.

troyw2000: I don't think I am getting refurb units. I couldn't tell the difference between the first machine I got and the replacement. Where would I look for evidence of refurbed-ness.

iWrite · Jun 16, 2003, 05:22 PM

speirsfr · Jun 16, 2003, 05:22 PM

jpyrett: Yup, tried everything I could think of with respect to plugs.....no joy.

iWrite · Jun 16, 2003, 05:24 PM

Meant to say that a "sizzling" noise would bug the heck out of me. I couldn't stand it. It must be like having a mosquito whining around your head and you can't see it to swat it away.

What a bummer.

A $3500 mosquito with an LCD and a keyboard.

Did you check out the Apple Discussions boards to see what others are reporting?

speirsfr · Jun 16, 2003, 05:27 PM

iWrite, yeah, there's a big thread about the sizzle over at discussions.info.apple:

http://discussions.info.apple.com/We...8.10@.3bc1747c

Some say it's normal and tobe expected. Others, like me, disagree.

iWrite · Jun 16, 2003, 05:51 PM

You know, I was actually thinking of buying one.

I prefer the size of the 15-inch system, but I was considering one of the 17-inchers.

But, hearing this, I wouldn't even consider it.

If I want to hear sizzling I'll fry some bacon.

forcelite · Jun 16, 2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by speirsfr:

My new plan is to keep on returning the machine until I get one that doesn't sizzle. If I have to get a new machine every week until Rev B ships, that's their problem.

I dont know how many times they will let you do that cause at the apple store I work at we know alot of the customers by face, and that would defiantly set off a red flag to the managers

beanman · Jun 16, 2003, 06:52 PM

I noticed this sound right after I got my 17" and haven't noticed it since. I've used it all over the place and never heard the noise at any bothersome level. The only time I have heard it is when I get my ear right up to the keyboard. And even then, the noise is very, very faint.

I find it hard to believe that one person's pet peeve can pursuade others to not purchase one of these machines. I know others who have the 17" as well and have no reports of this problem. It could very well be a problem, but based on so many reports of this occuring in other models, some non-mac, I would have to believe that it's design limitation. Chances are, this could pop up in the 15" models as well.

On a side note, does the backlighting have something to do with it maybe? Just a thought.

iWrite · Jun 16, 2003, 07:30 PM

I took a hop, skip, and a jump over to the Apple Discussions for the 17-incher and I'm not pleased with the kinds of complaints I saw there -- or the amount of complaints.

THAT is why I'm dissuaded to buy one.

wanderlust · Jun 16, 2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
You know, I was actually thinking of buying one.

I prefer the size of the 15-inch system, but I was considering one of the 17-inchers.

But, hearing this, I wouldn't even consider it.

If I want to hear sizzling I'll fry some bacon.

Your choice, but wow, you're really going to miss out. Besides myself, I know six other folks with the 17". None of us have this problem. That's not to say that you won't run into it, but odds are against it. I have to say that the 17" is the most beautiful computer I've ever worked on, PC or MAC.

iWrite · Jun 16, 2003, 09:43 PM

...Yeah, until the next "biggest and baddest" machine comes out.

I'm pretty happy with my Titanium 1Ghz right now.

Sometimes enough is enough.

DVD Plaza · Jun 16, 2003, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by beanman:
I noticed this sound right after I got my 17" and haven't noticed it since.

Likewise - mine was louder than the sizzle of my PowerBook 800DVI, but after a few days (or perhaps weeks) it went away. I have to put my ear right up to my keyboard to hear it now.

Originally posted by beanman:
On a side note, does the backlighting have something to do with it maybe? Just a thought.

Negative, it's a symptom the PowerBook's have exibited for at least a few years now. Just that some machines seem to be more obvious than others.

Originally posted by RooneyX:
I don't get this sizzle. Just the fan noise when it comes on.

You mean when it "revs" up

iWrite · Jun 16, 2003, 10:03 PM

I've owned about 20 Powerbooks in the last three or four years and I've never heard this sizzling sound -- not even once.

tungtied07 · Jun 16, 2003, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by jpyrett:
Did you try making sure the plug is grounded? Are you using fluorescent lights? Maybe your wife is using a vibrator in the other room? Did you try another location?

lol

TAZ · Jun 16, 2003, 11:12 PM

Listened to the file again at home with the TV and other noises eliminated. Your computer sounds JUST like my 400 TiBk, and ThinkPad sounded like. Except it isnt quite as loud. Mine doesnt change volume with processor output. I always thought it was the hard drive whirring away. I think that is why I couldnt pick it out as I am so used to hearing it from the computers I have worked on. If its not the HD or fans what is causing the noise??

hldan · 12:40 AM

Originally posted by speirsfr:
So I'm already on my second 17" powerbook, Apple having replaced the first unit because of the keyboard sizzle. The second unit displayed exactly the same problem, yet Apple are now saying that the noise is 'within acceptable tolerances'.

So, I'm just about to call the Apple store and arrange a refund. I'll wait for Rev. B or the post-WWDC 15" model. The noise was just so annoying and constant, I found myself instead of working just sitting thinking "that noise is really annoying - I wish it would go away". Having spent as much as I have done, leaving the processor permanently on 'reduced' speed is a pretty unacceptable option. It's disappointing, because otherwise this is an awesome machine.

I just hope that they'll allow me to re-use my ADC discount on whatever I buy instead.

Speirsfr, please don't take too much offense to this but all computers make noises. My Wintel box had the noisest Hard Disk Drive and my G4 Towers' fan is on constantly even in sleep mode. They are machines, not a box of Kleanex. My 17"PB has this sizzle that everyone is talking about but it's not noticeable unless my ear is lying on the keyboard just as most people have stated and 2 of my friends have the same computer and the same sizzle. You are barking about something very small and is not a defect. I know it's expensive but enjoy the fact that you got the dang thing for $2639.00 (ADC discount) which is whole lot less than most of us paid for our 17"PB. Enjoy the machine and go on with life. You are being too picky. If there was nothing to complain about, people will still complain anyway.
Sorry to be so harsh but the sizzle thing has been beaten to death and it's not major. Does the Mac work? Does it do it's job? Is it doing what Apple advertised it as back in January? That's what's worth starting a post for.
Those of us that bought the 17"PB know that we have the coolest and most advanced laptop anywhere and we've got bragging rights for a few more months so just enjoy.

Karim · Jun 17, 2003, 10:39 AM

One thing to note is that the sound is MUCH louder (which means inaudible to barely audible with your ear to the keyboard) if your plugged into AC.

If your running off battery it is hard to tell. This might explain how some people hear it and some do not.

Some discussion was talking about the CPU noise and the power inverter assembly contributing to the sizzling noise.

Try plugging and unplugging and see if you notice a difference. I do.

speirsfr · Jun 17, 2003, 11:05 AM

Karim, yup. The sound is significantly increased on AC.

Powaqqatsi · Jun 17, 2003, 11:16 AM

I think that's the GPU (yes Graphics). My Ti867 does this too when I use Software Update or with earlier builds of Safari (v80 doens't seem to have it anymore, but I use Camino anyways).

djjava · Jun 17, 2003, 12:21 PM

i played that mp3 with all my volumes at full blast... i could barely hear a thing... I think itn the end, you are being extraordinarily picky... or you have superman hearing. if you have a screen with no dead pixels, take the powerbook and run.... there are plenty of people out there that would take your "flawed" powerbook in a second. it's just like what people say when they complain about the lidot closing even, or a stuck pixel in a non-obvious place.... "you can't expect eeverything to be perfect."

speirsfr · Jun 17, 2003, 12:28 PM

djjava, remember I said that I had mild tinnitus and that that condition is said to make people hypersensitive to white noise? I dunno. I mean the problem is certainly there and I know that other 17" units don't have this noise. I'd take a handful of stuck pixels over this noise any day of the week.

djjava · Jun 17, 2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by speirsfr:
djjava, remember I said that I had mild tinnitus and that that condition is said to make people hypersensitive to white noise? I dunno. I mean the problem is certainly there and I know that other 17" units don't have this noise. I'd take a handful of stuck pixels over this noise any day of the week.

i remember, but it's hard to imagine that soft sizzling to be loud enough to be aggravating... but then again, it's also hard to imagine what it's liek to be blind when I've been able to see my entire life.

I can't image this sizzling overpowering itunes... or a DVD...

Tinnitis is a ringing in the ears and apparently is most evident with little to no background noise. If your case is mild, I would think iTunes would blow that sizzling out of the water.

vdaddy2 · Jun 17, 2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by hldan:
Speirsfr, please don't take too much offense to this but all computers make noises. My Wintel box had the noisest Hard Disk Drive and my G4 Towers' fan is on constantly even in sleep mode. They are machines, not a box of Kleanex. My 17"PB has this sizzle that everyone is talking about but it's not noticeable unless my ear is lying on the keyboard just as most people have stated and 2 of my friends have the same computer and the same sizzle. You are barking about something very small and is not a defect. I know it's expensive but enjoy the fact that you got the dang thing for $2639.00 (ADC discount) which is whole lot less than most of us paid for our 17"PB. Enjoy the machine and go on with life. You are being too picky. If there was nothing to complain about, people will still complain anyway.
Sorry to be so harsh but the sizzle thing has been beaten to death and it's not major. Does the Mac work? Does it do it's job? Is it doing what Apple advertised it as back in January? That's what's worth starting a post for.
Those of us that bought the 17"PB know that we have the coolest and most advanced laptop anywhere and we've got bragging rights for a few more months so just enjoy.

Amen. I'm a switcher, and have had BigAl about 1 month now. In that time I've gotten familiar w/ the machine and it runs very well compared to other computers I've worked with. It's disheartening for me to see people scared away from a purchase that might help their productivity and enhance their lives as much as BigAl has mine by gripy threads of people who find the smallest design "flaw" to rant about. You don't want smears on the screen, wash your hands and don't eat while your on the computer. Apple shouldn't have to design around your love of BLT's. Does the split second it takes the speakers to wake up really bug you that much??? If that's all it takes to fsck up your day, then we're all in trouble. Perspective people...

The bottom line is this: A computer was designed to assist and enhance your daily life, not to become it. It's like a calculator, or a car--as someone said earlier, it's a machine. At the risk of being labelled "granola," I'll finish my rant by saying that most of the people on the globe can't afford the machines we're fortunate enough to own, and they certainly don't have the luxury of time to whine about their 15.2" screen not being as cool as the expected 15.4"er. They're to busy trying to eat and raise kids and keep other goons with big fast computers like ours from making their lives any harder.

We got cool gear. We sleep at night. Let's smile about it for once.

Thanks to all for indulging me w/ this diatribe. Peace.

speirsfr · Jun 17, 2003, 02:52 PM

vdaddy, it's not as if Apple is doing me a personal favour letting me spend �2300 in their store.

Lebensm�de · Jun 17, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by djjava:
i played that mp3 with all my volumes at full blast... i could barely hear a thing... I think itn the end, you are being extraordinarily picky... or you have superman hearing.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who couldn't hear anything. If you ask me the guy with the sizzle problem goes to a special school on the East Coast and hangs out with friends who go by names like Wolverine, Storm, and Magneto.

Lebensm�de · Jun 17, 2003, 03:47 PM

= "Sizzle in my ear and I'll follow you anywhere..."