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Burke · Jun 23, 2003, 02:33 PM

I want to "test drive" a 17" PowerBook for a few days (i.e., use it like I normally would, not just a few minutes of clicking or watching demos at CompUSA). Therefore, I have a question:

Since you can return an opened PowerBook for up to 10 days with a 10% restocking fee, would you say there's anything "unethical" or dishonest about purchasing it and then returning it minus the 10% fee should I not want to keep it? I am just being ridiculous here?

icruise · Jun 23, 2003, 02:59 PM

I personally think that buying anything without the intention of keeping it is unethical. If you decide after buying it that it's not for you, that may be a different story, but you shouldn't buy something knowing that there's a good chance you will take it back. It costs the store and Apple time and money.

Karim · Jun 23, 2003, 03:00 PM

I think it is fine, after all you will be paying about $300 for your privilege to test drive it for 10 days.

I don't think they resell them after you return them, I'm under the impression they ship them back to Apple where they are "refurbished" and then resold with that title.

They figured out that 10% was enough to cover their costs in refurbishing the unit and I'll bet you don't end up returning it anyway.

BkueKanoodle · Jun 23, 2003, 03:01 PM

I wouldn't call it unethical. After all are paying 10% or $320 for those 10 days. What they do is turn around and sell it as open box for usually something like $100 off of retail. They actually end up making money off the deal.

However before you do that, call around, a lot of places will rent you a laptop. Check with your local Compusa Business Sales desk, as they can either refer you.

BkueKanoodle · Jun 23, 2003, 03:06 PM

I think it depends on where you buy it from what they do with it. At my local compusa, my business rep told me that since when apple sells to them, they basically wash their hands of them except for Apple care. Thats why compusa is picky about their returns, because if they do get a return, their stuck with it, Apple won't take it back from them.

Burke · Jun 23, 2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Icruise:
I personally think that buying anything without the intention of keeping it is unethical. If you decide after buying it that it's not for you, that may be a different story, but you shouldn't buy something knowing that there's a good chance you will take it back. It costs the store and Apple time and money.

Thanks for all the replies, guys/gals.

I don't PLAN on returning it, but I was just wondering what a concensus might be...

spaced · Jun 23, 2003, 03:10 PM

When you buy a computer from CompUSA and return it, if you bitch enough you can get out of the 10% restocking fee. I did it with an iBook about a year back. Don't know how "bendable" other retailers are, though.

Beer Penguin · Jun 23, 2003, 03:14 PM

Why would you let a bunch of losers on an internet discussion board decide your ethics?

If you're really set on it though, a Utilitarianist would say go for it. A Deontologist would say not to go for it. I tend to pick and choose which philosophy I follow based on what benefits me more at the time.

spaced · Jun 23, 2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Beer Penguin:
I tend to pick and choose which philosophy I follow based on what benefits me more at the time.

Ahh, yes, so that means you're a Selfabsorbedologist?

Karim · Jun 23, 2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Beer Penguin:
Why would you let a bunch of losers on an internet discussion board decide your ethics?

Don't be so rough on yourself.

icruise · Jun 23, 2003, 03:30 PM

Yeah, I guess I missed the part about the restocking fee. There was a guy on another board who went through at least 3 ibooks from amazon because there were "problems" with them (a dead pixel). Amazon apparently lets you return them for that. That seems unethical to me, but if you pay the restocking fee, then it shouldn't be a problem.

Burke · Jun 23, 2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Beer Penguin:
Why would you let a bunch of losers on an internet discussion board decide your ethics?

Well of course!

Hilzoy · Jun 23, 2003, 04:04 PM

"If you're really set on it though, a Utilitarianist would say go for it. A Deontologist would say not to go for it. I tend to pick and choose which philosophy I follow based on what benefits me more at the time."

Actually, a utilitarian would say: do what would maximize the general happiness. Suppose lots of people did what you're doing: would it lead computer sellers to make it harder for people to return things? If so, then since that would probably cause enough unhappiness to counterbalance your benefit from this, a utilitarian would say you shouldn't. (A rule utilitarian, at least. An act utilitarian would say that if you were planning to do this, you shouldn't have posted about it and given other people the idea.)

Deontologists just say you should follow 'the rules'; since different deontologists have different rules, deontologists as a group wouldn't have a clear position on this.

Personally, I think you should try to figure out some decent tests to run it through in the store and stick with that. Since you asked.

xpander · Jun 23, 2003, 05:19 PM

the church of xpander says donate your new Powerbook to me.

dialo · Jun 23, 2003, 05:45 PM

How could it be unethical? The return policy is ther for you to use it. If it was a problem for the retailer, then they wouldn't have the policy.

If I get something with a dead pixel and I can return it, I'm going to. Plain and simple. If the next person has a problem with it, too, then they can return it as well. Why would anyone in their right mind keep something they are unhappy with when they can return it?

And it also doesn't matter what your intentions are when you buy it. One of the things you are paying for is that possible return period. That's something the company uses to attract customers. As long as you return it within the specified time period, you are following the rules.

icruise · Jun 23, 2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by dialo:
How could it be unethical? The return policy is ther for you to use it. If it was a problem for the retailer, then they wouldn't have the policy.

If I get something with a dead pixel and I can return it, I'm going to. Plain and simple. If the next person has a problem with it, too, then they can return it as well. Why would anyone in their right mind keep something they are unhappy with when they can return it?

And it also doesn't matter what your intentions are when you buy it. One of the things you are paying for is that possible return period. That's something the company uses to attract customers. As long as you return it within the specified time period, you are following the rules.

I think there is such a thing as abusing the system. What the original person talked about wouldn't be abuse, but I've heard of people who will go to somewhere like best buy and buy and return half a dozen or more products just to see if they like them. That's not what the return policy is for, in my opinion, and if people continue to do that kind of thing the businesses may decide it isn't worth it to offer no-questions-asked returns.

It's like people abusing the extended warranties offered by some companies, by breaking something on purpose to get a newer model as a replacement.

BkueKanoodle · Jun 23, 2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Icruise:
I think there is such a thing as abusing the system. What the original person talked about wouldn't be abuse, but I've heard of people who will go to somewhere like best buy and buy and return half a dozen or more products just to see if they like them. That's not what the return policy is for, in my opinion, and if people continue to do that kind of thing the businesses may decide it isn't worth it to offer no-questions-asked returns.

It's like people abusing the extended warranties offered by some companies, by breaking something on purpose to get a newer model as a replacement.

Actually most these places offer 10 returns as part of a "Satisfaction Guarantueed" policy. The whole purpose of this is to make sure that the purchase lives up to what you expect it to be. If it takes 7 returns to get what you want, thats what it takes. Of course that 10 % adds up for the consumer pretty quick, but if your willing to shell out for it, its not unethical.

icruise · Jun 23, 2003, 06:31 PM

I suppose my opinion may be partially influenced by living in Japan. In Japan, you basically can't return anything, unless it is faulty. So it seems kind of excessive to me to keep returning things for minor reasons. I think it's a better idea to do a lot of research before buying, to make sure what you are getting is actually what you want.

romeosc · Jun 23, 2003, 06:40 PM

Apple retail store said today after Steve's Keynote, that if you get a Apple Store Pro Card, you can return "any Apple product within 30 days with no restocking"

Plus many extras....

Beer Penguin · Jun 23, 2003, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by spaced:
Ahh, yes, so that means you're a Selfabsorbedologist?

Yup. It's the only way to live life.

icruise · Jun 23, 2003, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by romeosc:
Apple retail store said today after Steve's Keynote, that if you get a Apple Store Pro Card, you can return "any Apple product within 30 days with no restocking"

Plus many extras....

I assume that costs money?

romeosc · Jun 23, 2003, 09:28 PM

Free with pre-purchase of G5

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_

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arkhem · Jun 24, 2003, 01:01 AM

Unethical to me sounds like paying $2000 for a 20 inch LCD panel to find out it has 3 dead pixels in the middle that stick out like a sore thumb and theyre not taking it back!

juanpacolopez · Jun 24, 2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by arkhem:
Unethical to me sounds like paying $2000 for a 20 inch LCD panel to find out it has 3 dead pixels in the middle that stick out like a sore thumb and theyre not taking it back!

I wholeheartedly agree here...

If I'm paying $2k for a display, it damn well better be FLAWLESS.

Having said that, I don't necessarily think it's unethical to return something like that, as long as you're willing and prepared to pay the restocking fee and don't try and weasel your way out of it. That's what the restocking fee is THERE FOR. It's so that the rest of the consumers (and Apple) don't have to eat the cost of a return.

Besides... how many people do you know that would return a 17" after playing w/ it for a week? I may not personally care for them due to size... but they are AMAZING machines after all.

macdevil · Jun 24, 2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Karim:
I think it is fine, after all you will be paying about $300 for your privilege to test drive it for 10 days.

I don't think they resell them after you return them, I'm under the impression they ship them back to Apple where they are "refurbished" and then resold with that title.

They figured out that 10% was enough to cover their costs in refurbishing the unit and I'll bet you don't end up returning it anyway.

The CompUSA nearest me resells them after they are returned. Usually at a slight discount,5% to 7%. I have even had them offer their extended warranty for free on top of the discount. Funny thing is, they have a lot of old demo equipment (15" flat screens, g4 500...) but they won't discount them nearly as much.

Burke · Jun 24, 2003, 12:59 PM

Well I just gave in and ordered a 17", but I had to make sure to leave it stock, since Apple's return policy does not apply to "customized" systems.

I got the 2-day shipping and hopefully it'll show up by Friday!

tooki · Jun 24, 2003, 01:11 PM

I can tell you, from working at Apple dealers, that Apple is vicious in its stance of not taking things back. They will do it, but they charge hefty restocking fees if you exceed a certain percentage of returned units. (They do, of course, take back faulty merchandise. But even those count against the returns percentage! This really infuriated resellers who sold lots of eMacs, since initially, those had really high failure rates!)

Any loss caused by returns falls squarely on the retailer.

tooki

Burke · Jun 24, 2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by tooki:
I can tell you, from working at Apple dealers, that Apple is vicious in its stance of not taking things back. They will do it, but they charge hefty restocking fees if you exceed a certain percentage of returned units. (They do, of course, take back faulty merchandise. But even those count against the returns percentage! This really infuriated resellers who sold lots of eMacs, since initially, those had really high failure rates!)

Any loss caused by returns falls squarely on the retailer.

tooki

I can understand Apple being hardcore with people who return an excessive amount of items, but I don't plan on doing it monthly.

Burke · Jun 24, 2003, 02:02 PM

And now I'm nervous with anticipation...

These next couple of days won't go by fast enough!

Burke · 08:05 PM

LOLOLOL

I just got an e-mail from the venerable Apple store telling me my Apple loan wasn't enough to cover the price of the 17" PowerBook (which I knew) and that they don't allow you to split the payment using the loan amount and a credit card...which, of course, was my plan. LOL

Guess it's more waiting for me, then...

ROTFL

DigitalEl · Jun 25, 2003, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by Burke:
I just got an e-mail from the venerable Apple store telling me my Apple loan wasn't enough to cover the price of the 17" PowerBook (which I knew) and that they don't allow you to split the payment using the loan amount and a credit card...

Awww, man. That sucks. Seems they'd take payment any way you can come up with it in order to make the sale.

Cipher13 · Jun 25, 2003, 06:31 AM

Unethical? No.
Stupid? That's the word.

You'd pay a 10% restocking fee to "test-drive" one of these?

Burke · Jun 25, 2003, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Unethical? No.
Stupid? That's the word.

You'd pay a 10% restocking fee to "test-drive" one of these?

Absolutely.

dettociao · Jun 25, 2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Burke:
Absolutely.

Stop me if I'm wrong... but 10% of $3000 is $300, no? I'll let you borrow my friend's 17" for 10 days for $300.

Burke · Jun 25, 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by dettociao:
Stop me if I'm wrong... but 10% of $3000 is $300, no? I'll let you borrow my friend's 17" for 10 days for $300.

Actually a bit more, what with tax, shipping, etc.

I have no problem spending it if I want to try it out and not linger in a CompUSA for hours clicking everything. Only your friend would want his back.