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schmoe · Jul 9, 2003, 06:33 PM

Assuming an aluminum 15" is available in say a month or so, is it worth waiting for?

I'm no fan of the 12" and 17" aluminum PowerBooks, the tacky chrome keys and plastic rimmed finish are unattractive even compared to the titanium and painted carbon fiber 15". The side ports are really unfortunate when using the laptop as a... laptop. Then again the Ti 15" screen tends to be warped, the hinges are super fragile, and the finish tends to scratch. So assuming a 15" Al follows the same design, I don't see any pluses on the design side either way. Seems to boil down to the insides.

I'm guessing the CPU speed would be unchanged since the 1ghz chip runs hot as hell already, and the Al machines really don't benchmark any faster than the Ti so no benefit in core architecture. Heck the GPUs are even worse on the Al.

Yet the Al books are reported quieter and cooler at least on the 17", which is a huge plus.

Don't have any FireWire 800 devices so could probably wait till the G5 PowerBook. iPod loads are fast enough already anyway.

If Apple releases a bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo then having built in bluetooth would be a real benefit. Otherwise it doesn't much matter to me.

Have no plans for 802.11g so Airport Extreme is no help, though it may use less power for more battery life. The Ti is not upgradable to AE, at least with the internal port, so a definite negative there. Have no problems with Ti reception though.

Well, did I miss anything? The comparison doesn't seen to favor the 15" Al at this point. Perhaps it'll be better with a faster, cooler processor that actually runs noticably faster, but I won't bet on that.

Axo1ot1 · Jul 9, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by schmoe:
I'm no fan of the 12" and 17" aluminum PowerBooks, the tacky chrome keys and plastic rimmed finish are unattractive even compared to the titanium and painted carbon fiber 15".

chrome keys? have you ever seen one in person?

I'm guessing the CPU speed would be unchanged since the 1ghz chip runs hot as hell already...

Yeah...there probably hasn't been any progress in microprocessor engineering since around 10 months ago...

and the Al machines really don't benchmark any faster than the Ti so no benefit in core architecture.

All the benchmarks I've seen show the 17" to be quite a bit faster than the 15 inch in a number of tasks.

riverfreak · Jul 9, 2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by schmoe:
I'm no fan of the 12" and 17" aluminum PowerBooks, the tacky chrome keys and plastic rimmed finish are unattractive even compared to the titanium and painted carbon fiber 15".

Um, are you implying that the Ti 15" is ugly? What do you consider an attractive laptop (any manufacturer)? I used to think that the keys on the 12" and 17" were not as nice as on the Ti - but that was until I sat down and actually used one for awhile.

The side ports are really unfortunate when using the laptop as a... laptop.

I, for one, welcome the move to ports on the side. As a full-time laptop user, I'm sick and tired of fumbling around behind the machine morning and night every single ay to plug in the array of gadgets I use. Ports on the side is the ONLY way to go. For those rare occassions when the laptop is actually just sitting on my lap, I'm probably not going to be tethered to things like mice and external hard drives.

Then again the Ti 15" screen tends to be warped, the hinges are super fragile, and the finish tends to scratch. So assuming a 15" Al follows the same design, I don't see any pluses on the design side either way. Seems to boil down to the insides.

juanpacolopez · Jul 9, 2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Axo1ot1:
All the benchmarks I've seen show the 17" to be quite a bit faster than the 15 inch in a number of tasks.

To which benchmarks are you referring?

Head over to the games forum and read some real-world tested performance for Warcraft III, UT2k3, etc.

Most show the Ti 15" being the fastest powerbook (UT2k3 especially) by an often large margin. The RADEON 9000 is a better GPU than the Go 440, even more so in games that use programmable pixel and vertex shaders (ut2k3) as the 440 hasn't got them.

Under the hood, the only real "performance" difference between the 15" and the 17" is faster (DDR) RAM in the 17" and a slightly higher bus speed.

If you need further convincing... check the following:

http://www.macworld.com/2003/06/revi...inchpowerbook/

MacWorld review of the 17" PB. Notice in Speedmark 3.2 it scores _2_ points higher than the Ti... The Ti actually beat it in Cinema 4D... The 17" gets about 2.5 fps more in Quake3 (by virtue of the fact that nVidia's opengl is HEAVILY optimized for Q3). This is hardly what I would call "quite a bit faster".

Just my thoughts... the 17" is a nice machine, but let's be honest. All it really has going for it is the aluminum enclosure and bigger screen. Don't get me wrong, those are NICE plusses... but performance shouldn't really be counted among them.

tikki · Jul 9, 2003, 07:13 PM

The only thing that sucks about ports on the side is the dockability of the laptop. What is nice about a tiBook is you can slide it in a dock and have a wired connection, keyboard, mouse when you wanna sit at a desk, or undock and go about your business. no fumbling when you return to plug everything in. Just dock

iWrite · Jul 9, 2003, 07:24 PM

I LOVE MY TITANIUM 1GHZ.

What an excellent post, Schmoe. You made GREAT points.

Seriously, I think the 1Ghz Titanium is probably the best Powerbook made since the G3 500Mhz Pismo. It's easy to upgrade the hard drive (it's a snap compared to the aluminum systems) and IF the case has a problem with paint or other finish issues, Apple WILL replace it -- unlike the aluminum system.

Also, having the ports in the back is GREAT if you're going to hook to an Apple display or to a Bookendz docking station.

The fan on my 1Ghz TiBook NEVER comes on. I use the Cyber3 TiBook Tote and Tilt on my machine (www.drbott.com) and it matches and looks awesome.

I'm not going to be swapping out the Titanium for an aluminum Powerbook just because of the case issue. There would be no other reason to "upgrade" because the speed will probably be the same or only marginally better.

Plus, then there's the issue of how many problems an initial model release has. Remember the Titaniums? How many models did we go through before they got it "right?" I do NOT want to be the test monkey for the first aluminum Powerbooks. Besides, Titanium is worth a lot more than aluminum is.

I think the Titanium 1Ghz is going to be a classic for a long time -- like the G4 Cube.

juanpacolopez · Jul 9, 2003, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
I LOVE MY TITANIUM 1GHZ.
...
I think the Titanium 1Ghz is going to be a classic for a long time -- like the G4 Cube.

Here! Here! I, too, love my Ti 1Ghz....

Best machine I've ever owned, period.

Pangasius · Jul 9, 2003, 08:23 PM

Let me make a corny joke.

Every sense apples fruit iMac days people expect stuff needs too look good.

I agree yes it shouldnt look like the bottom of my shoe but man I care more about the following.

Speed (G4 is fine for now)
Reliability
Solid (Goes with looks the AL is nice and is pretty resistant to scratches.)
Light (hands down PB for what they have are light)
Features with software to use them (got it)
Nice keyboard (AL keyboard owns)
Last but not least you always get that nice rock solid smooth OS. Nothing can beat OSX.

clf8 · Jul 10, 2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by tikki:
The only thing that sucks about ports on the side is the dockability of the laptop.

Check BookEndz , they've got docking stations. None for the new 17" yet, but I'm sure there will be one for the 15" and 17" soon enough.

Is the 15" Al alone enough to upgrade from a TiBook? Prolly not, but maybe from an iBook. It's the usual, if you don't need a new computer then why buy it? If you do need it, why wait? Personally, I've waited long enough, give it an 80gig drive and a Mobility 9600 and it will be hella close to perfect.

ae86_16v · Jul 10, 2003, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by clf8:
Personally, I've waited long enough, give it an 80gig drive and a Mobility 9600 and it will be hella close to perfect.

Yeah, that would be the best machine ever. I wouldn't mind at all the new 7457 PPC though.

iWrite · Jul 10, 2003, 06:37 AM

Personally, I've waited long enough, give it an 80gig drive and a Mobility 9600 and it will be hella close to perfect.

Until the next model comes along.

Emeril · Jul 10, 2003, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Until the next model comes along.

Hehe I completely agree. I'm surprised I don't see more posts with the title "G4 or wait for G8 9Ghz?" :-p

rambo47 · Jul 10, 2003, 08:22 AM

I think the difference between the Al-Book and Ti-Book will be the graphics card and the new MPC 7457 G4. It might clock a bit higher, but I believe the emphasis will be on battery life.

Eug Wanker · Jul 10, 2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by rambo47:
I think the difference between the Al-Book and Ti-Book will be the graphics card and the new MPC 7457 G4. It might clock a bit higher, but I believe the emphasis will be on battery life.

I'm not so sure. The 1.3 GHz 7457 (16.6 W) supposedly uses slightly more power than the 1 GHz 7455 (15 W). I predict the new 15.4" AluBook will use a 1.25 GHz 7457, so it will use something like 16 Watts.

Furthermore, Apple has taken to using lower power batteries, in the interest of size, weight, and cost. For example, the 17" AluBook's battery is smaller than the current 15" TiBook's. Similarly, the new iPods have shorter battery life than the older ones.

Thus, my prediction is that the rated battery life of the new 15" may be shorter than the current TiBook.

macxtal · Jul 10, 2003, 08:50 AM

The 15" TiBooks are back in stock, and, I hazard a guess an aluminum replacement is not going to happen anytime soon. My bet is you're going to see an upgraded 12" to take the 15"s spot. Maybe I'm wrong, but every day that the Ti sticks around makes me more confident it will be going nowhere.

spotze23 · Jul 10, 2003, 09:24 AM

why should an "upgraded 12" to take the 15"s spot"? just have a look at the size of the display...

are there guys from apple around to put out contra-rumors?

GENERAL_SMILEY · Jul 10, 2003, 09:40 AM

My 17Al is badass, I'm sure your Ti is nice too.

I'm taking it soon to meet a new photographer I'm going to sign - I guarantee he is going to think it is pretty cool as well.

The keyboard is better than the Ti, sorry it is true - we have a Ti at the studio too - it feels better, and the backlighting is practical too - low light joy.

Side ports are better than the ones at the back, at least if you actually hot swap anything, I grant you if you don't have any peripherals it looks marginally neater at the back with the flap thing.

Both good machines, but the AL17 is better. Sure it costs more but if I was thinking of the money then in all honesty I would probably not have bought Apple.

So if the 15 Al is as good as the 17Al, then to be honest it is going to be a slick little number. Should anybody wait - probably.

Or maybe you should just get out there, make more money, and upgrade as you feel the need. You've got an expensive habit, live with it.

Eug Wanker · Jul 10, 2003, 09:45 AM

Side ports are better than the ones at the back, at least if you actually hot swap anything, I grant you if you don't have any peripherals it looks marginally neater at the back with the flap thing.

It's personal preference. I had an iBook 600 and the one thing I HATED was the side ports. The cables for the peripherals just get in the way of everything, esp. if you have limited desk space.

The only thing I dislike about the TiBook's ports is the network jack. It's a bit too recessed under the screen for my tastes, considering you need to press the clip on the network cable to remove it. But other than that I MUCH prefer the TiBook's rear ports for my usage.

(I use Firewire drives, USB stuff, etc.)

nayr x · Jul 10, 2003, 10:08 AM

These message boards kill me... They always make me crave a new machine even when I am satisfied with my current one. I swear, my Ti500 is the best apple I've ever owned, and Ive owned quite a few. Even at, hmm... 2+ years old now, It is still capable of running the software I need and is solid as a rock in doing so. I would love to upgrade to a more modern display (my little sis just got a 12'' for college and the display on it floors me when Im used to looking at this one all day) I think I will probably resist the urge to buy another G4 when we all know the G5 technology is coming. I'll wait (even if it is a long time) to get a G5 PB next, even though I will most likely pounce on the first one that is released (Like i did with my TiBook) and have to endure another round of people be-littleing the first-gen machines. When I do finaly replace my Ti Book, Im getting it dipped in bronze and mounted on my wall.

-------
R.Stover
"Nature's President"

JHromadka · Jul 10, 2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by iWrite:
[B]Seriously, I think the 1Ghz Titanium is probably the best Powerbook made since the G3 500Mhz Pismo. It's easy to upgrade the hard drive (it's a snap compared to the aluminum systems)

My gosh, if the TiBook's hd is easier to upgrade than the AlBook's, then we're in trouble. I upgraded the hd on my TiBook 400 and that was two hours I'll never get back. The stupid rubber inserts kept popping out and it was a very tight fit.

Pangasius · Jul 10, 2003, 10:11 AM

No way will the 12 take the 15s spot. If they were too do that then who needs the iBook. This is the point of the PB line now. You have a 3 sizes based on what you need. A 15 is the smallest PB you can get with all the features. For example this is my reason to think the 15 will get the ambient light sensors in the keyboard. If you need an extremely portable, but more powerful solution to the iBook then the 12 is for you. So I am sorry to say I would be shocked if Apple replaced the 15 with the 12. Also if this was the case then why have they wasted there resources still making the 15. Wouldnt it of been better to drop it to begin with. I dont think we will have to wait to much longer. Apple knows there is a demand for AL 15. Most likely we will C a silent upgrade during the creative expo who knows. I just know I need to be patient. 12 Rev B or 15 AL I will have to decide soon.

Papa Jupe · Jul 10, 2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Also, having the ports in the back is GREAT if you're going to hook to an Apple display or to a Bookendz docking station.

I agree. Side ports are more accessible, but I prefer having the ports and cables a little more out of the way, behind the display. After the initial setup at your desk, how often are you plugging and unplugging cables anyhow? If it's more than half a dozen times a day you would be better off with a USB or FireWire hub of some sort.

There are docking stations for the 12" PowerBook now (and the iBooks for some time), but I honestly could not see myself ever using one. A dock sticking out the side of a laptop like that looks terrible, IMHO.

The fan on my 1Ghz TiBook NEVER comes on. I use the Cyber3 TiBook Tote and Tilt on my machine (www.drbott.com) and it matches and looks awesome.

Please email me when you decide to sell your PowerBook!

In all seriousness, this was the one little thing that caused me some aggravation. Even while on a Podium Coolpad my 15" 1GHz TiBook's fan would come on quite frequently. I would hang onto that machine if I were you.

I'm not going to be swapping out the Titanium for an aluminum Powerbook just because of the case issue. There would be no other reason to "upgrade" because the speed will probably be the same or only marginally better.

Absolutely. I don't think there will be too much to entice a current TiBook owner to make the switch, but I have a feeling there are a lot of people waiting for this new machine, who are either buying their first PB, or upgrading from a much older model.

Plus, then there's the issue of how many problems an initial model release has. Remember the Titaniums? How many models did we go through before they got it "right?" I do NOT want to be the test monkey for the first aluminum Powerbooks. Besides, Titanium is worth a lot more than aluminum is.

I agree with this thinking for the most part, but I think Apple has probably worked out any "Aluminum issues" with the 12" and 17" models. I have a feeling they have pumped enough of these machines through the assembly line to have the kinks worked out.

Personally, I will be looking for a deal on a current 15" TiBook when these new Aluminum 15" models are released. I think that will be a nice little purchase.

Phanguye · Jul 10, 2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by NAYR X:
These message boards kill me... They always make me crave a new machine even when I am satisfied with my current one. I swear, my Ti500 is the best apple I've ever owned, and Ive owned quite a few. Even at, hmm... 2+ years old now, It is still capable of running the software I need and is solid as a rock in doing so. I would love to upgrade to a more modern display (my little sis just got a 12'' for college and the display on it floors me when Im used to looking at this one all day) I think I will probably resist the urge to buy another G4 when we all know the G5 technology is coming. I'll wait (even if it is a long time) to get a G5 PB next, even though I will most likely pounce on the first one that is released (Like i did with my TiBook) and have to endure another round of people be-littleing the first-gen machines. When I do finaly replace my Ti Book, Im getting it dipped in bronze and mounted on my wall.

-------
R.Stover
"Nature's President"

I have a 550 tibook and it definently sucks ass... i am glad some people got good ones... is you paint chipping above the dvd drive?

mike one · Jul 10, 2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
It's personal preference. I had an iBook 600 and the one thing I HATED was the side ports. The cables for the peripherals just get in the way of everything, esp. if you have limited desk space.

(I use Firewire drives, USB stuff, etc.)

total personal preference: same ibook, love the side ports, have firewire, modem, enet hub hooked up at home, at work: enet, security cable, powercable, lcd projector, mouse. so much easier to plug in the device you forgot without having to stand up and bend over the back of your machine. all my cables hang off the sides of the desk and all the peripheals are stuffed underneath as well, 'cept for the mouse

nayr x · Jul 10, 2003, 01:54 PM

quote:
-----------------
I have a 550 tibook and it definently sucks ass... i am glad some people got good ones... is you paint chipping above the dvd drive?
~Phanguye
____________________

Nope, despite what I hear from a lot of users, my book still looks great. And it has gone through hell and back between class and work, and the most damage it has to it are the little rubber pads that keep the metal from touching when its closed are sort of... melted? Other than that the appearance of it is great, and it still runs FCP3, Photoshop, and all the apps I use professionaly without so much as a hicup. I know there have been improvments made, but this is a great machine. Sorry you don't like yours!

------------------
R.Stover
"Nature's President"

nayr x · Jul 10, 2003, 02:03 PM

Sorry, Im just curious... Why do you suppose Apple abandoned its Titanium casing in favor of an aluminum one? Did the TiBooks really get that beat up or what? I think in the metal kingdom aluminum is titanium's bitch. A soda can is made of aluminum, less spectacular than titanium, I'd say. I must admit i think the aluminum's look great, my sister got a 12" and it's very slick... but unless it is just too expensive/impractical or whatever, I think if apple's whole lineup (desktops/portable/monitors) were titanium it would be an impressive fleet of high-tech machinery. And unique, too!

-------------
R.Stover
"Nature's President"

NeXTLoop · Jul 10, 2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by NAYR X:
Sorry, Im just curious... Why do you suppose Apple abandoned its Titanium casing in favor of an aluminum one?

A lot of it had to do with Airport reception range. The iBook quickly became the industry standard, in terms of its range. Unfortunately, the TiBook fell far short. That hurt it in reviews and users' opinions. The Aluminum is a good comprise. Still looks good, while delivering Airport range on par with the iBook (or very close).

Simon · Jul 10, 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by NeXTLoop:
A lot of it had to do with Airport reception range. The iBook quickly became the industry standard, in terms of its range. Unfortunately, the TiBook fell far short. That hurt it in reviews and users' opinions. The Aluminum is a good comprise. Still looks good, while delivering Airport range on par with the iBook (or very close).

Does the better reception really have to do with the Al? I guess it rather results from a change in design, where the antennas are behind plastic "windows" instead of metal (conductor, Faraday cage).

I suppose the Ti could have had similar reception if they would have also used these plastic covers. I don't believe it has to with the fact that Al and Ti have (slightly) different conductance.

Nevertheless, I prefer the Al.

neutrino23 · Jul 10, 2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by NAYR X:
Sorry, Im just curious... Why do you suppose Apple abandoned its Titanium casing in favor of an aluminum one? ...
-------------
R.Stover
"Nature's President"

That's a good question. My guess is that Al was just so much easier to work with and cheaper to buy. Al is easier to shape, it anodizes to a nice finish and it is much more common making it easier to find shops to subcontract to. Al also is a much better heat conductor. Who knows how much grief Apple took over the chipping paint on the Ti books.

The better question to ask is why they chose Ti in the first place. Hard to say. At Apple the designers have more sway than the engineers (opinion).

nayr x · Jul 10, 2003, 02:39 PM

Yeah, I guess apple bit off more than it could chew with a product line made from titanium... I personally think the Aluminum ones look better, too. mmm... shiny.... But for the record, my TiBook gets *MUCH* better reception than my mom's iBook at her house with an AE base station. (But my sister's 12" Al gets really great reception, too)

_______________
R.Stover
"Nature's President"

djjava · Jul 10, 2003, 02:47 PM

I love my PB17.

simple as that.

You don't like it? Fine. Don't get it.

You wanna wait for the 15" Al Book. Fine. Wait.

You don't like "chrome" keys? Fine. Don't buy an AlBook.

Let's stop the pissing contest. whether you own a 15" TiBook, 17" AlBook, 12" AlBook, or you are waiting for the 15" AlBook, we can all agree... THESE ARE DAMN FINE MACHINES, NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE THEM.

iWrite · Jul 10, 2003, 03:04 PM

JHromadka said:
I upgraded the hd on my TiBook 400 and that was two hours I'll never get back. The stupid rubber inserts kept popping out and it was a very tight fit.

You've GOT to be kidding? My 10-year old son just swapped out a hard drive on a 667Mhz DVI that I gave him! Sure, I told him what to do as he went along but he did it himself in about 15 minutes -- and he's 10 years old.

If you're having a problem with the "rubber bumpers" you're not doing it correctly, sorry to say. That's okay, though; if you did it a few times you'd see how easy it is after a while.

Anyway, I think everyone is happy with their respective machines, right? I love my 1Ghz system and you know what? I LIKE the look of the black keyboard against the grey and the white trim -- it's cool.

Would I LIKE to own a 17-inch system? Sure, if someone GAVE it to me. But, to be honest, I'm not so enthralled with it that I've GOT to have the 17-inch screen.

What I love about the Titanium is that it's PORTABLE. I don't consider the 17-inch system "portable." The Titanium is great to grab and bring to bed, out on the patio, WHEREVER, and I don't worry about space or it being too big and too fragile. I can manipulate it easily with one hand (especially with the Cyber3 TiBook Tote and Tilt from DrBott.com -- can't recommend it enough) and it's not too bulky.

I'm keeping my Titanium for a LONG time. It's a keeper.

schmoe · Jul 10, 2003, 04:13 PM

*nod* iWrite, I think the translucent grey 15" keyboard is much prettier than the chrome on the 12" and 17". Perhaps the new keyboards feel better, but then I didn't have any complaints about the old one. I'd prefer not having the titanium covers and body be different colors, but its ok.

Apple and Motorola seem geared towards continuing to put the G4 in laptops for another year at least and with the upcoming Motorola chips it may reach 1.5ghz+ with lower power use. Yet the new chips aren't even sampling yet.

I think I'm gonna wait till Monday or so and if nothing happens, go buy a 15" Ti SD model. Even if an Al 15" is announced, I think I'll skip it unless it comes with a radically faster processor... 200mhz+ with longer battery life and less heat, i.e. damn unlikely.

Eug Wanker · Jul 10, 2003, 04:22 PM

Apple and Motorola seem geared towards continuing to put the G4 in laptops for another year at least and with the upcoming Motorola chips it may reach 1.5ghz+ with lower power use. Yet the new chips aren't even sampling yet.

I think I'm gonna wait till Monday or so and if nothing happens, go buy a 15" Ti SD model. Even if an Al 15" is announced, I think I'll skip it unless it comes with a radically faster processor... 200mhz+ with longer battery life and less heat, i.e. damn unlikely.

The new chips are already sampling, but they won't be 1.5 GHz. They aren't lower power either. The 1.3 GHz G4 7457 uses 16.6 W, while the 1.0 GHz 7455 uses 15 W. They'd be lower power at the same GHz, but of course we'd want faster GHz.

I'd guess a new 15" would be at 1.25 GHz, but with shorter battery life.

If you're gonna wait, Monday isn't the best day. Apple often refreshes its stuff on Tuesday, and furthermore, Apple's feature presentation at MWCP is on Wednesday. Personally, I'd wait at least until mid-week next week. Indeed, if necessary I'd probably wait until August if I were in your shoes, unless I absolutely needed a machine right now.

Fortunately, I already have a GHz TiBook SD, and have had the pleasure of using it since last year.

schmoe · Jul 10, 2003, 04:38 PM

Ahh thanks, I thought Apple was presenting Monday. I am in immediate need of a machine, sold my ThinkPad T40p that I recently switched back too and I'm down to an ancient desktop. Guess I can wait till Wednesday though. My main concern is future OS X performance, but I think the Radeon 9000 with 64M should do fine for QE for a revision at least.

Toutgood · Jul 10, 2003, 05:03 PM

I love my 15 Ti

Keyboard: Springy and satisfying> backlight would be nice, but I have never actually needed it.

Screen: Gorgeous, wider than most other laptops. I know the 17 incher is badass, but the fifteen is still wiiide. Hinges are a tad tight though. And the screen lies flat on the keyboard, necessitating regular cleaing or some kind of screen protector ( about $10 )

Fan, Heat: Is hot, but can be fixed by some sort of prop. I've got this book...

Ports on the back, Power drive on front: Saves me tons of space on the desk. Wouldn't mind fw 800, but I don't honestly need it.

Look, durabilty: This thing gets used all day, every day. I have a nice Tucano sleave for it to travel in, and I lovingly wipe it down every so often. After 3 months it's as good as new. I like the dull sheen of the ti, but I wouldn't mind the al's lack of paint.

Perfomance: Workhorse, gets the job done. All my imaging and web design software works smooothly as can be. OS X, never crashes. Not perfect, but close.

I could go on, but I won't. I love it. It's great. I'm sure I'd feel the same about an ALbook, but hey, Apple makes some nice hardware....

Emeril · Jul 10, 2003, 05:50 PM

Good points, and in total agreement with you! I purchased a new TiBook 867 yesterday & am enjoying it, very nice machine.

I think everyone has to stop preaching which models are need-to-have items. '17" is the best', 'You have to get the 12"', 'Wait for the AI 15"'. People, this is a NEVERENDING cycle. There will ALWAYS be something else just around the corner. Apple makes beautiful machines, and with the choice of 3 Powerbook models, it allows everyone to decide which book best suits them.

I just can't get over how people trash the TiBook like it's some obsolete piece of junk. Sure the AI book is gorgeous & a great step forward, however it seems everyone lives in such an artificial world where every feature seems like a matter of life and death. Sheesh, relax and just enjoy using the machine!

Cheers.

Originally posted by Toutgood:
I love my 15 Ti

Keyboard: Springy and satisfying> backlight would be nice, but I have never actually needed it.

Screen: Gorgeous, wider than most other laptops. I know the 17 incher is badass, but the fifteen is still wiiide. Hinges are a tad tight though. And the screen lies flat on the keyboard, necessitating regular cleaing or some kind of screen protector ( about $10 )

Fan, Heat: Is hot, but can be fixed by some sort of prop. I've got this book...

Ports on the back, Power drive on front: Saves me tons of space on the desk. Wouldn't mind fw 800, but I don't honestly need it.

Look, durabilty: This thing gets used all day, every day. I have a nice Tucano sleave for it to travel in, and I lovingly wipe it down every so often. After 3 months it's as good as new. I like the dull sheen of the ti, but I wouldn't mind the al's lack of paint.

Perfomance: Workhorse, gets the job done. All my imaging and web design software works smooothly as can be. OS X, never crashes. Not perfect, but close.

I could go on, but I won't. I love it. It's great. I'm sure I'd feel the same about an ALbook, but hey, Apple makes some nice hardware....

schmoe · Jul 10, 2003, 06:02 PM

The first point of the 15" debate is that an update is due any day now. If it's only been 2 months since the last update then sure, waiting is silly, but a new 15" should have been out by now already.

The other point is that the Al series really doesn't seem to be a great step forward. Only a few new features, some bogus like un-utilized DDR and inferior video card, and a new case which may or may not be better. AE and Bluetooth is very nice though.

Toutgood · Jul 10, 2003, 06:18 PM

Oh I have no doubt that there is some new 15 incher on the horizon. Is the 17 incher too big for the mainstream crowd?

I do think, however, that we are a ways away from a significant processor and battery life improvement. That means, when all is said and done, we'll all be working about the same.

That said, my mom's got a nifty centrino laptop and she just rolls along batterywise... Good thing she's using XP or I'd almost be jealous...

slider · Jul 10, 2003, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by schmoe:
The first point of the 15" debate is that an update is due any day now. If it's only been 2 months since the last update then sure, waiting is silly, but a new 15" should have been out by now already.

The other point is that the Al series really doesn't seem to be a great step forward. Only a few new features, some bogus like un-utilized DDR and inferior video card, and a new case which may or may not be better. AE and Bluetooth is very nice though.

Don't forget they also moved the antenna's to the side of the screen, that makes a big difference. I wouldn't be totally surprised if they added the backlighting to the keyboard too, although I doubt it.

neutrino23 · Jul 11, 2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by NAYR X:
... But for the record, my TiBook gets *MUCH* better reception than my mom's iBook at her house with an AE base station. (But my sister's 12" Al gets really great reception, too)

_______________
R.Stover
"Nature's President"

I think there is a problem with your mom's iBook. Is it a newer white iBook? I'd try to confirm that the antenna cable is firmly connected to the airport card. Not sure what else you could check. Maybe take it to an Apple Store and get their opinion.

schmoe · Jul 16, 2003, 11:48 AM

Well, Ti 15" 1ghz it is. The Apple Store treated me very well with a student discount, iPod promotion, and refunding the cost of the 256M chips since I upgraded to 1GB RAM. It is nice to be back on OS X and things are much snappier than my old rev b. 667mhz, probably mostly due to the increased video RAM.

One always-on green subpixel and a mispainted hinge, very irritating but it could be a lot worse. All in all I love the design of the TiG4. Fan noise hasn't been a problem with the iCurve so far.

NeXTLoop · Jul 16, 2003, 02:10 PM

I have a couple of questions in response to things said in this thread. Someone mentioned that the AlBooks have inferior video cards. Is the ATI Radeon 9000 really better than the nVidia GeForce4 440 Go? If so why? Is it because the graphics chip is inherently better, or more a case of nVidia not having as good of Mac drivers as ATI?

Second, everyone seems to have pretty much given up hope of a G5 PB for at least another year or so. But what about a dual G4? Some of the technical specs on Moto's newest G4 chips indicate that it could allow the construction of a dual processor laptop. Any thoughts? Wouldn't that allow Apple to really deliver on their promises of "the year of the laptop?" Especially if one of the processors could be "switched off" while unplugged, thereby keeping battery life at its present state.

Graymalkin · Jul 17, 2003, 01:15 AM

The Radeon 9000 chip is sort of like the Radeon 8500's little brother. The 9000 maintains the programmable pixel and vertex shaders of the 8500 as well as the four pixel pipelines.

A pixel pipeline is a path through the GPU that computes the color of a single pixel. The more pixel pipelines you've got the more pixels you can pump out per GPU clock. The shaders on those pipelines take shading instructions and compute a pixel's color. Programmable shaders can take custom instructions from the program to make some really awesome visual effects. Fixed function shaders like the ones in the Radeon 7500 and GeForce 4 Go chips don't allow for the same effects to be done in hardware. To get some of the effects seen in UT2003 the programmers used programmable pixel shaders.

The Radeon 9000 was designed so it could run the same code as the 8500 but with a smaller transistor count so it would be a less expensive chip. ATi kept the four pixel pipelines and programmable shaders of the 8500 but dropped the number of texture units per pipeline from 2 on the 8500 to 1 on the 9000. The 8500 can handle 3 textures per texture unit, 6 textures total per pass. The 9000 can handle 6 textures per unit per pass, for six total. As you can see the 9000 will handle as many textures per pass as the 8500. In games like UT2003 with lots of multitexturing the 9000 will perform as well or better than the 8500. In games like Quake 3 with simpler texturing the 8500 will typically perform better.

Regardless of its performance compared to the Radeon 8500, the 9000 is more than a match for a Radeon 7500 or GeForce 4 Go. The GF4Go is simply a mobile version of the GF4MX which is based off the GF2. The Radeon 9000 has two more pixel pipelines than the GF4MX does which allows for higher framerates at given resolutions. The Radeon 9000 also has a programmable pixel and vertex shader so it can do visual effects UT2003 uses in hardware. The only time a GF4MX will give a Radeon 9000 a real run for its money is in older games like Quake 3.

NeXTLoop · Jul 17, 2003, 10:17 AM

Graymalkin, thanks for the detailed explanation. I had begun to suspect that due to the fact that Apple only lists Quake framerates for the 15" on the PowerBook pages. Kinda makes you wonder why they don't list the framerates for that 17". Could it be because their not as good?

Thanks again.