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AHDuke99 · Jul 28, 2003, 12:24 AM

Since Moto has already screwed up again, I think the best thing for Apple to do is screw Moto, and get IBM cranking on a 970 that can run in the PB's. If Apple can't release the PBs until September, AFTER all the students have gone back, who's gonna buy them, when the G5's are just around the corner in Jan/Feb 2004, hell if it goes to Paris, I will bite the bullet and use my non-DVI Tibook until the G5's come. I'm waited 6 months already, I might as well wait another damn 3.5 months til January to get the "World's First 64-bit Laptop". Either way, Apple will lose this time. So my advise to them on the PB's now, SCREW MOTOROLA, LET"S GET IBM GOING ON THE G5's FOR THE PB's, then just bring those to Paris in two months, not just speed bumps for the current line. Moto's a lost cause. Put them in the iBooks. Move everything else to the G5. What a let down Moto is.

schmoe · Jul 28, 2003, 12:31 AM

I doubt there'll be a G5 in laptops in 3.5 months... at least a year or more would be my guess. That is when IBM claims they'll have the smaller die size G5. Plus the head of Apple hardware himself said it won't happen anytime soon. Apple already uses an IBM G3 processor in the iBook btw.

Sooner or later Motorola will have full production of the new G4 chips and Apple will ship them in the PowerBooks. More L2 and L3 cache, faster system bus, more MHZ. It'll have to tide us over for a release or two. The current systems are very nice, so things should be ok.

Graymalkin · Jul 28, 2003, 01:12 AM

It wouldn't be really feasible to stick the 970 into a laptop at this point. The only way to run it cool enough to work in a portable would be to seriously underclock it, along the lines of 1.2GHz. You've also got to worry about getting all the high bandwidth system controllers running in a laptop. The desktop G5s interleve the memory to get an effective 6.4GB/s out of the DDR bus. On a laptop that isn't feasible because you've got one user servicible memory slot. Without having access to both slots you couldn't really upgrade the memory very easily. That would mean Apple would have to lock the laptops at a given amount of RAM. Either they would have to offer only a fixed amount of RAM or produce several several processor boards with varying amounts of memory. One method loses customers and the other is too expensive to be feasible.

A G5 even underclocked needs a ton of memory bandwidth to keep it fed with data and run efficiently. Adding a bottleneck to the memory bus would mean the G5 Powerbooks wouldn't perform much better than a G4 Powerbook. For so much effort there'd just be too little return. Merely using a 1.2 or 1.4GHz G4 would be a much more economical solution until the smaller die G5s are released.

ngrundy · Jul 28, 2003, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by AHDuke99:
"World's First 64-bit Laptop".

http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/exec.php?p=prod-note

They also used to make the AlphaBook 1 a 233mhz Digital Alpha based laptop

ASIMO · Jul 28, 2003, 01:41 AM

It's kind of hard to screw the larger guy.

Esquare · Jul 28, 2003, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by AHDuke99:
If Apple can't release the PBs until September, AFTER all the students have gone back, who's gonna buy them, when the G5's are just around the corner in Jan/Feb 2004, hell if it goes to Paris, I will bite the bullet and use my non-DVI Tibook until the G5's come.

1. There will be NO G5 PB in Jan/Feb 2004. That is completely ludicrous.
2. Students may be the biggest contributors to rumor sites, but they aren't the only buyers of computers.

Get real: you'll be using your TiBook 'til 2005.

slider · Jul 28, 2003, 04:29 AM

Apple claimed it had been working on the G5 for 2 years with IBM. During that time we here in the forums were screaming that Apple needed to get with it and do something about the system speeds; they were. Apple is completely aware of the speed issues, were they stand in the over all computer market and where they need to be. I am sure Apple is doing what they can produce the fastest machines possible, and will continue to do so. This continuous concept that Apple is oblivious to the rest of the computer world is silly. If there is to be a G5 in a laptop, I am sure Apple is working on it, but there might be other options as well, which we are completely unaware of. As far as ditching Motorola, I hear yeah, I have been on the band wagon myself, but in reality it would probably not be wise to completely alienate either one of the only two companies that produce the chips Apple needs.

beachmark · Jul 28, 2003, 04:30 AM

No way you will see a Powerbook G5 by Jan 2004. I think you should rather aim at Sept 2004 but most likely MWSF2005.

Another point that I like to emphasize (again) is the fact that this forum is one of early adaptors and Apple's target group is much larger than that. And as long asthe sales of all Powerbooks is still increasing Apple would be stupidto launch anythign new. Never throw away good shoes for other ones that are only slightly better.

Maybe it is an idea to use your current laptop to the fullest until it is really old and falling apart. At that time oyu will also have much fun with your new one.

LeeG · Jul 28, 2003, 06:36 AM

I agree with the sentiments that there will be no G5 laptop for some time (figure a year), If steve-o pulls a 'one more thing' and shocks and awes us - Great! but if I were in the market for a laptop, which I am, I would bet the G4 will be here a while.

Also, my wife got an 867/15" Ti last fall, around the same time a friend of mine got a top of the line sony vaio - apple's laptops are JUST FINE - the TiBook feels worlds ahead - The Vaio weighed almost twice as much (plus windows XP is an affront to the eyes - who the hell picked that color scheme? and people worry that Aqua is too distracting? get real).

Apple was way ahead in laptop design, and I feel especially in laptops, proc speed is not everything, its one thing. If you NEED the fastest proc available...2x2Gz sounds nice to me...

Lee

That being said I will upgrade my G4 Powerbook whenever the G5 comes out - its just too badass.

Sakino · Jul 28, 2003, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Esquare:
1. There will be NO G5 PB in Jan/Feb 2004. That is completely ludicrous.
2. Students may be the biggest contributors to rumor sites, but they aren't the only buyers of computers.

Get real: you'll be using your TiBook 'til 2005.

But I bet you they will offer a very good percentage of the buying this fall when we (college students) go back to school. I see apples all around the place, that goes for mostly 15 inch pbs. If apple were smart they would release this long overdue product, or at least start to hint at an update in the line for frustrated apple crowd they have created.

If they cannot have it out by the end of August, I suggest they atleast let their ppl know how long its going to be. Sorry I feel the 15 in pb is out of date. All of you can go on and say it isnt, but I feel it is.

juanpacolopez · Jul 28, 2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Sakino:
But I bet you they will offer a very good percentage of the buying this fall when we (college students) go back to school. I see apples all around the place, that goes for mostly 15 inch pbs. If apple were smart they would release this long overdue product, or at least start to hint at an update in the line for frustrated apple crowd they have created.

If they cannot have it out by the end of August, I suggest they atleast let their ppl know how long its going to be. Sorry I feel the 15 in pb is out of date. All of you can go on and say it isnt, but I feel it is.

Hate to be the one to break it to you... but college students returning/starting school in the fall make up:

1) a rather small portion of Apple's sales... the VAST majority of incoming college students get a cheap PC laptop/desktop from their school... the knowledgeable portion that DO buy an Apple laptop don't have the buying power of many of Apple's top customers (media productions houses, etc.)...

2) Which brings me to my next point... while those incoming college students ARE a boon to sales, on the whole they are a very, very small chunk of Apple's revenue. Think about it this way... you and say, 5% of your typical freshman class (that's being VERY generous) decide to get powerbooks...

IF you all bought top-of-the-line 17's, iPods, and let's say FCE for messing around with... you're talking about $3500-$3800 each. With the average freshman class probably around 1000... you're talking 50 people. $15-20k is NOT THAT MUCH MONEY compared to the HUGE chunk that media houses and the like pay for their Xserves and Shake and Logic and FCP and etc, etc, etc.

If Apple were smart (which they are) they would focus on their core customers, their largest revenue streams, and expanding markets. The fact that the iPod exists proves that Apple cares about the college age crowd... but don't think for a second that the "pre-school" buying rush is something that will make or brake Apple in this fiscal year.

NYK Ace · Jul 28, 2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:

2) Which brings me to my next point... while those incoming college students ARE a boon to sales, on the whole they are a very, very small chunk of Apple's revenue. Think about it this way... you and say, 5% of your typical freshman class (that's being VERY generous) decide to get powerbooks...

IF you all bought top-of-the-line 17's, iPods, and let's say FCE for messing around with... you're talking about $3500-$3800 each. With the average freshman class probably around 1000... you're talking 50 people. $15-20k is NOT THAT MUCH MONEY compared to the HUGE chunk that media houses and the like pay for their Xserves and Shake and Logic and FCP and etc, etc, etc.

sure if the numbers were that low, we'll say for the benefit of the doubt, its bc thats PER SCHOOL. then times it by even just 15,000 colleges nationwide (another low estimate im guessing) and add to that all the computers the universities purchase every upcoming school year. suddenly the back to school market is getting bigger and bigger...

slow moe · Jul 28, 2003, 10:21 AM

I'd like to know just what in the hell people are doing with their PowerBooks that makes the current line-up so damn "out-of-date"?

Sakino · Jul 28, 2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
Hate to be the one to break it to you... but college students returning/starting school in the fall make up:

1) a rather small portion of Apple's sales... the VAST majority of incoming college students get a cheap PC laptop/desktop from their school... the knowledgeable portion that DO buy an Apple laptop don't have the buying power of many of Apple's top customers (media productions houses, etc.)...

2) Which brings me to my next point... while those incoming college students ARE a boon to sales, on the whole they are a very, very small chunk of Apple's revenue. Think about it this way... you and say, 5% of your typical freshman class (that's being VERY generous) decide to get powerbooks...

IF you all bought top-of-the-line 17's, iPods, and let's say FCE for messing around with... you're talking about $3500-$3800 each. With the average freshman class probably around 1000... you're talking 50 people. $15-20k is NOT THAT MUCH MONEY compared to the HUGE chunk that media houses and the like pay for their Xserves and Shake and Logic and FCP and etc, etc, etc.

If Apple were smart (which they are) they would focus on their core customers, their largest revenue streams, and expanding markets. The fact that the iPod exists proves that Apple cares about the college age crowd... but don't think for a second that the "pre-school" buying rush is something that will make or brake Apple in this fiscal year.

And remember most incoming classes are probably a lot more than 100 freshman. I know for sure madison probably has about 5-7000 freshman maybe? The other thing to note is you left out sophs, juniors, and seniors from the picture as well as grad students. I'm a junior and I plan on getting a pb.

Plus on average 50 * 3000 = 150000 * 16000 = 240,000,000. I would have to say that is pretty damn good. But Thats going to be a rough estimate probably +/- 50 mil

jindrich · 10:29 AM

how many of Ti owners (like me) do you think will upgrade their powerbooks for ANOTHER G4? i'll tell ya:

close to zero.

Even if the G5 is slower than the 1,25 G4. people will wait. It's just a psychological thing.

Moreover, take into consideration how much money a powerbook costs. it's more than �3,000, hence it's mostly a poweruser machine. But now that the processing power difference among the apple desktops and laptops is SO hugue, people will buy a �2,000 G5 and a cheap under �1,000 PC laptop rather than a �3,000 not-fast-enough G4 powerbook.

powerbook sales will decrease extraordinarily until g5 laptops appear

PS: and dont tell me current powerbookss are fast. For anyone whos ever tried a modern P4 desktop, powerbooks are a joke. (my titanium is the *nice* computer, but my daily workhorse is an awful but fast PC. SAd but true)

Sakino · Jul 28, 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by slow moe:
I'd like to know just what in the hell people are doing with their PowerBooks that makes the current line-up so damn "out-of-date"?

I dont think its the fact its out-of-date so much. Most people want the latest products available to them. I know for sure I am one of them people. Airport extreme, ddr, etc are all nice add-ons if you ask me. The new design looks great. Plus a speedbump will be an added bonus. Some people have even said that the pb does feel a little sluggish compaired to an intel mobile chip running xp(Something I refuse to buy in laptop)
I don't own an apple yet, but I use them on a regular basis. I cannot wait to own my first apple product, hopefully very soon.

Sakino · Jul 28, 2003, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by jindrich:
how many of Ti owners (like me) do you think will upgrade their powerbooks for ANOTHER G4? i'll tell ya:

close to zero.

Even if the G5 is slower than the 1,25 G4. people will wait. It's just a psychological thing.

Moreover, take into consideration how much money a powerbook costs. it's more than �3,000, hence it's mostly a poweruser machine. But now that the processing power difference among the apple desktops and laptops is SO hugue, people will buy a �2,000 G5 and a cheap under �1,000 PC laptop rather than a �3,000 not-fast-enough G4 powerbook.

powerbook sales will decrease extraordinarily until g5 laptops appear

Look how many people sold their ti pbs to get a new al pb. There was a good amount of people last winter/spring doing this.

As many people have said I dont see the g5 going in the pb anytime soon, that mean probably not until summer or fall 04. Just from the information I have read.

cowerd · Jul 28, 2003, 10:42 AM

Look how many people sold their ti pbs to get a new al pb.

And Apple had not released the G5 yet. There are huge gaps in the product lineup now because of the G5. Apple has to upgrade because the whole lineup, except for the G5 is now looks underpowered and overpriced. Speedbumps and moving the iBook to a G4 would help sales acorss the line, especially on the iMac where sales are SLOW.

Simon · Jul 28, 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Graymalkin:
It wouldn't be really feasible to stick the 970 into a laptop at this point. The only way to run it cool enough to work in a portable would be to seriously underclock it, along the lines of 1.2GHz. You've also got to worry about getting all the high bandwidth system controllers running in a laptop. The desktop G5s interleve the memory to get an effective 6.4GB/s out of the DDR bus. On a laptop that isn't feasible because you've got one user servicible memory slot. Without having access to both slots you couldn't really upgrade the memory very easily. That would mean Apple would have to lock the laptops at a given amount of RAM. Either they would have to offer only a fixed amount of RAM or produce several several processor boards with varying amounts of memory. One method loses customers and the other is too expensive to be feasible.

A G5 even underclocked needs a ton of memory bandwidth to keep it fed with data and run efficiently. Adding a bottleneck to the memory bus would mean the G5 Powerbooks wouldn't perform much better than a G4 Powerbook. For so much effort there'd just be too little return. Merely using a 1.2 or 1.4GHz G4 would be a much more economical solution until the smaller die G5s are released.

You're comments sounded rather smart, but the conclusion lacks any sense.

If IBM gets a smaller die G5 out and Apple puts it in its PowerBooks, how is this supposed to change the fact that we have a memory bus trade-off to live with. Either bigger books with two bank slots to install memory in pairs, or single slots leaving us with a starved memory bus and thus with a crippled G5.

Would you care to explain how a 90nm G5 is supposed to solve that fundamental problem in a notebook?

neutrino23 · Jul 28, 2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by slow moe:
I'd like to know just what in the hell people are doing with their PowerBooks that makes the current line-up so damn "out-of-date"?

If I had a Ti PB I would not be thinking of an upgrade. I have a two year old QS tower and a three year old PISMO. I would replace both with a 15" Al PB. The current Ti is not bad but I am holding out for Airport Extreme and a backlit keyboard. The rest of the likely improvements are icing on the cake.

Eug · Jul 28, 2003, 11:59 AM

Some random points in no particular order:

1) I love armchair CEOs...

2) My TiBook SD serves me OK, but I could easily use something twice the speed. video anyone?

3) Two memory slots is OK, esp. considering that 1 GB memory modules are already available. In 1 year they might actually be affordable. It was what, 2 years ago that 512 MB modules were very expensive? Now they're cheap as borscht. And it would still run at 333 MHz at least with a G5. That's twice what the bus is now. It is conceivable that Apple could design a dual channel 333 MHz system too for the new G5. Then you could get 2x512... 1024 MB at 667 MHz is nothing to sneeze at. That would make it the laptop with the fastest memory bus in the world. Or if you're rich, 2x1024...

4) I would upgrade to a new G4, IF it was much faster without sacrificing too much battery life. That and if the memory design improved. Today's G4s use an out-of-date memory bus system. I won't upgrade in 2003 though. Maybe late 2004 or sometime in 2005, depending on what's available.

5) My bet is that fall 2003 laptops will have the same CPUs as winter/spring 2004, just faster. I wouldn't count on a G5.

6) Both a G4 1.4 and a G5 1.2 would potentially be memory bandwidth starved with a 167 MHz bus. But for the G5, it by default would necessitate a new bus design anyway, so the statement is irrelevant.

7) Depending on the software, a G5 1.2 is not necessarily faster than a G4 1.2. For FP probably the G5 would be MUCH faster, but for integer and Altivec it may actually be slower unless the software is rejigged for the G5.

neutrino23 · Jul 28, 2003, 12:01 PM

...So my advise to them on the PB's now, SCREW MOTOROLA, LET"S GET IBM GOING ON THE G5's FOR THE PB's, then just bring those to Paris in two months, not just speed bumps for the current line. Moto's a lost cause...[/B]

[SARCASM] What a great idea! Let's forward this to Steve Jobs. I'll bet he hasn't considered this yet. [/SARCASM]

I don't mean to jump on you in particular, but what do people think is going on at Apple? Apple has been working with IBM on the 970 for several years. Laptops make up a large and growing share of Apple's business. Don't you think they already have a plan to put a G5 in a PB? Don't you think they already have all sorts of prototypes being tested in Cupertino? Certainly if it were possible to build a G5 laptop by now they would already be in all the Apple stores. It's not like they are sitting around at the Apple campus, twiddling their thumbs looking for ideas. Apple is overflowing with ideas. It takes a while for the technology to catch up.

ae86_16v · Jul 28, 2003, 03:08 PM

46% to be exact. . .

slider · Jul 28, 2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by neutrino23:
[SARCASM] What a great idea! Let's forward this to Steve Jobs. I'll bet he hasn't considered this yet. [/SARCASM]

I don't mean to jump on you in particular, but what do people think is going on at Apple? Apple has been working with IBM on the 970 for several years. Laptops make up a large and growing share of Apple's business. Don't you think they already have a plan to put a G5 in a PB? Don't you think they already have all sorts of prototypes being tested in Cupertino? Certainly if it were possible to build a G5 laptop by now they would already be in all the Apple stores. It's not like they are sitting around at the Apple campus, twiddling their thumbs looking for ideas. Apple is overflowing with ideas. It takes a while for the technology to catch up.

EdipisReks · Jul 28, 2003, 06:35 PM

i currrently own a 1 gHz tibook. i may sell this and get a new one when they come out, but it really depends on what the total upgrade package is. if they come out with a dual CPU 17", then i will definitely jump on one. i'm not holding my breath, however. i'm not expecting a G5 Powerbook anytime before q3 2004, in all actuality.

real · Jul 28, 2003, 07:27 PM

Quote: or at least start to hint at an update in the line for frustrated apple crowd they have created.

Apple hasn't created a frustated crowd we have. Everyday most of us in the morning go to macnn(or where ever you get your apple news) and check the website. Nothing, And there will be nothing. G4 powerbooks are great, so is the ibook.Everybody is getting worked up about nothing.We talk about it like it was life or death, IT ISN'T!

Buying a new machine every 6 months; Why? What a waste of money. It never feels like a brand new machine, "but its 100 mhz faster and had 10 more gigs of HD space" Who gives a #$%*.

Do creative things on your PB and be productive and you will see that the PBG4 really is a great machine, And before you know it will be 3 years old and time for a new one, And guess what you didn't have to wait 3 months on your order. And WOW it will seem fast.

It's a Macintosh do something with it.
real

mixtup · Jul 29, 2003, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by Eug:

3) Two memory slots is OK, esp. considering that 1 GB memory modules are already available. In 1 year they might actually be affordable. It was what, 2 years ago that 512 MB modules were very expensive? Now they're cheap as borscht.

Really? 1 gigs for the TiBook? Or is this just a AluBook thing?

Sorry for the off-topic.

As for the G5 laptops, I have one thing to point out: the G5 desktop has like, what, eight fans?

juanpacolopez · Jul 29, 2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Sakino:
And remember most incoming classes are probably a lot more than 100 freshman. I know for sure madison probably has about 5-7000 freshman maybe? The other thing to note is you left out sophs, juniors, and seniors from the picture as well as grad students. I'm a junior and I plan on getting a pb.

Plus on average 50 * 3000 = 150000 * 16000 = 240,000,000. I would have to say that is pretty damn good. But Thats going to be a rough estimate probably +/- 50 mil

+/- 50 MILLION Apples sold to back to school folks?

First of all, I said 1k, not 100... the reason I chose that is that yes, there ARE larger schools (GA Tech, GSU, and UGA are all within 2 hours of here, and all have over 20k students)... however there are MANY more smaller colleges (Agnes Scott for example, is 2 miles from my apartment... it's a women's college, very well respected, around 900 students). I was just picking a good average.

Honestly I was being generous about the number of incoming freshman who might consider buying a mac. With the exception of the knowledgeable CS students who want a good *nix platform, and old school Apple families (of which there aren't too many remaining) most students (at least the ones I know and have gone to school with) get a PC laptop/desktop because that is what their parents buy them.

Back to the +/- 50 million part.... you have a really bad concept of how many machines Apple actually sells. From their 2nd quarter 2002 financials:

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002...7earnings.html

Apple shipped 813 thousand Macintosh� units during the quarter, up 8% from the year ago quarter.

So multiply by 4, you get about 2.4 million machines FOR THE WHOLE YEAR. Now you can't honestly tell me that too large a chunk of that is college students. The fact is, most college students can't afford Apple hardware... most that CAN afford it chose not to buy it because their parents already bought a PC for graduation or whatever.

My point is, it's really NOT that much revenue. While important, as I said, it is NOT going to make or break Apple whether or not they release a new 15" in time for school shopping.

LfGrdMike · Jul 29, 2003, 01:12 PM

Well I have to say each and every one of you make good points here. I myself am a college student. Apple gets there money from the professionals. This is why the G5 was released to heal the great demand people had for a better all around desktop machine. They did a wonderful job, but arent finished yet. I am in the market for a powerbook and Apple isn't leaving anyone in the dust. Sure PC laptops are faster but look how big they are. When you make a laptop you have to make tradeoffs. Thats why the 12 inch powerbook isnt as powerful. Its more mobile than the 15, and 17. Education is weak and Apple has been laying people off who work in AppleEdu. I know its tough but the current lineup isnt bad at all. I wouldnt be surprised if the 15 remained a TI and just got upgraded features (DDR FireWire 800). Apple PowerBooks are very fast machines. Now there may be other laptops that are faster but this goes with tradeoffs too. PB are loaded and they are light sturdy well build machines. There are great deals right now and special offers. Take them, but make sure you buy your laptop as late as possible so that way you get Panther for 20 bucks. Let apple get the G5 towers to its pros. When this is finished then maybe we will see a laptop. I think at the end of August would be the time when the upgrade them, but then again I have no idea. It doesn't really matter the current line up is fine. Keep in mind the TI is on Rev D I think. So its bugs are for the most part gone. I think a lot of you are forgetting that a PowerBook G5 a well built one would take apple a great deal of time. Be patient. I know where your coming from we all got part time jobs, and it may take a good 4 years before we replace what we get at this point but look at it this way. Apples desktops are getting cheaper I plan to get a powerbook now, and in like 2,3,4 years get a Rev D PowerMacG5. That way the power is on my desk, and I got a great powerbook to take on the road. If you really need power then I suggest you buy a G5 and a cheap iBook. I mean really. That would add up to the price of a top of the line powerbook. Just my 2Cents.

Eug · Jul 29, 2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by mixtup:
Really? 1 gigs for the TiBook? Or is this just a AluBook thing?

Sorry for the off-topic.

As for the G5 laptops, I have one thing to point out: the G5 desktop has like, what, eight fans?

I don't think so for the TiBook, but we're talking future laptops anyways. For the machines using DDR (and the new 15" will likely use DDR), 1 GB sticks are already available.

As for a G5 laptop (assuming it does appear), it'd be a lower GHz, and it'd likely be a redesigned 90 nm part for laptops and potentially the embedded market. I would have no problems buying a 7457-RM based G4 laptop though. The G4 isn't dead yet, and would be a very good laptop chip if it had DDR support.

iWrite · Jul 30, 2003, 01:03 AM

So, this may or may not fit in here.

I love my Titanium. It's a supercool notebook.

But, over the weekend my significant other brought home the latest PC notebook that his company bought for him: Sony VAIO PCG-GRT170 that runs at 2.8Ghz, 80GB hard drive, 512mb DDR memory, DVD+/- drive, 16.1-inch high-rez LCD, 64mb VRAM, and guess what? Cost on it was $1900 (plus tax).

It has their new "aluminum-look" chassis and built-in Wi-Fi and Sony is proud of the fact that it's a "desktop replacement under 8 pounds." (7.6 pounds to be exact.)

It's 1.8 inches tall with the lid closed. The fan is quiet, just a "Shhhhhhh" sound that is hard to hear unless you put your ear up to the machine.

Okay, yes, it's a PC running Windoze but for the heck of it, got on it and installed Photoshop and some other apps and I'm sorry, but that thing is F-A-S-T.

It's almost 3Ghz and Apple is still offering 1Ghz!

No wonder it rips circles around the Powerbook, you know?

It's time for Apple to DO something...it gets to the point where the 1Ghz Powerbooks begin to have a Mickey Mouse childsplay kind of feel to them, you know? It's better to get out of them and move over to a desktop system instead.

It's kind of embarrassing, to be honest. "Looking cool" and being only one inch thick starts to be a thin excuse for lack of technological advance...function over form is always best in computers as well as in architecture.

slow moe · Jul 30, 2003, 07:28 AM

> Apple needs to do something

Couple of points to remember,[list=1][*]Apple chooses to make their money off of profit margins and not by volume. [*]They've never had a chip maker produce a chip for them that could keep up with Intel's P4 clock-for-clock marketing wise, until now.[*]Those chips haven't even started shipping in desktop units just yet, so it's going to take IBM a little while to get them ready for notebooks.[*]It's also going to take Apple a little while to get a enough "Switchers" converted by using these new chips along with OS 10.3 as a selling tool, so that point #1 isn't so necessary anymore.[/list=1]

It's just goint to take time. Dell, Gateway, Sony, etc. can offer some products at a price lower than Apple's because they, unlike Apple, aren't spending money on the CPU design, the motherboard's architecture, the development of the unit's Operating System, etc., and besides they use a lot of plastic.