[David Hagan]

As was alluded to in an article on Digitimes in early July, Dell has just rolled out their new 12-inch, the Latitude X300 (for business) and Inspiron 300M (for consumers).

What's surprising is just how well Apple competes for both features and price. A big drawback on the Dell is the external optical drive.

[Tomster]

A bigger drawback on the Dell is XP.

[BigDaddy]

Originally posted by Tomster:
A bigger drawback on the Dell is XP.

Right I am sure that Gates hates only having 90% of the market. XP rocks as does OSX. I do not get why people hate it.

[AssassyN]

Originally posted by BigDaddy:
XP rocks as does OSX. I do not get why people hate it.

The most intelligent thing I believe anyone's ever said on these forums, I completely agree.

But I DO agree it's biggest drawback is an external optical drive; in 1988, that would've been fine, but c'mon...

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by BigDaddy:
Right I am sure that Gates hates only having 90% of the market. XP rocks as does OSX. I do not get why people hate it.

Most of us don't think that XP "rocks". That's probably why.

It's less stable, ugly (ok, that's an opinion), and generally "asthetically challenged". Meaning, it sucks to use on a regular basis. Other than that, I'm sure it's fine.

[AssassyN]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Most of us don't think that XP "rocks". That's probably why.

It's less stable, ugly (ok, that's an opinion), and generally "asthetically challenged". Meaning, it sucks to use on a regular basis. Other than that, I'm sure it's fine.

Not to start an OS X vs. XP war, but if a person cannot manage Windows XP without crashing it daily, then there's something severly wrong with the OPERATOR of the OS. I firmly believe it's JUST AS GOOD as OS X, it's simply different. You can't hardly say that XP is "wildly unstable" when over 90% of the world (banks & businesses that you rely on daily included) uses Windows machines and gets along just fine.

[kenikov]

I agree. Nothing is severely wrong with XP.

There are plenty of 12-inch notebooks out there. Most of them come lighter than both the Powerbook 12-inch and iBook 12-inch.

[stevesnj]

A big drawback on the Dell is the external optical drive.

Umm...i still don't get the external optical drive thing, make it INTERNAL...those dummies. Another reason to buy a PB or iBook

[BigDaddy]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
The most intelligent thing I believe anyone's ever said on these forums, I completely agree.

But I DO agree it's biggest drawback is an external optical drive; in 1988, that would've been fine, but c'mon...

Well thank you. I do agree about the optical drive as well. But I think you do have the option for the media bay to attach to the underside of the unit.

[icruise]

XP is the best windows ever. Unfortunately, the best Windows ever is still Windows, and still not great from the average Mac user's perspective. It's not particularly unstable in my experience (about the same as OS X) but the user experience is considerably different.

Let's face it, despite Apple's great hardware, the OS is the most important factor in our sticking with Apple.

[MacNStein]

Latitude X300:

Pentium M Processor 1.2Hz
12" TFT Display
512MB,1 DIMM, DDR TOTAL 640MB
40GB,HD,9.5MM,5400RPM
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Internal 56K Modem
MEDIABASE W/24X CDRW/DVD
Dell TrueMobile™ 1300 WLAN (802.11b/g,54Mbps) miniPCI Card

Price_ - $2,316.00 (from dell.com)

12" Powerbook:

867MHz G4
12" TFT Display
640MB
Combo drive
40GB HD
Airport Extreme
Internal 56K Modem
OS X 10.2.x

Price - $1,848.00 (retail)


Seems rather pricey in comparison. And that's with Apple's extra RAM and preinstalled Airport. Almost $500 more for similar configurations.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Not to start an OS X vs. XP war, but if a person cannot manage Windows XP without crashing it daily, then there's something severly wrong with the OPERATOR of the OS. I firmly believe it's JUST AS GOOD as OS X, it's simply different. You can't hardly say that XP is "wildly unstable" when over 90% of the world (banks & businesses that you rely on daily included) uses Windows machines and gets along just fine.

I support several XP machines at work...

Trust me when I tell you this... it IS in fact MASSIVELY unstable in the hands of an inexperienced (Joe User). Yes, OSX can be too... but let me give you an example.

My girlfriend used OSX VERY infrequently before the inherited my laptop. She's by no means a complete novice, but was accustomed only to windows and even then only isolated to e-mail, WWW, and shockwave games. She uses my old ibook every day with NO ISSUE, EVER.

By comparison... I fix small issues on the XP machines at work on a DAILY basis. These are folks who have used Windows (98-2k) previously in a business environment. When we refresh (buy new hardware) machines, we usually take the opportunity to upgrade to XP essentially for free since we're already buying a new box. These people have all sorts of problems with XP. They don't always play nicely w/ our Win2k Advanced Server machine that houses all the client data, AD likes to forget passwords sometimes. Oh yeah, and XP's 802.11 support sucks, plain and simple. Try this sometime... On your PB, start a file transfer or other network operation while you're on airport. While it's in progress, plug in the ethernet (presumably connected to the same gateway) and wait about 30 seconds. Turn off airport.

Try that on XP sometime and see where it gets you

Just my $0.02... but OSX and XP are two ENTIRELY different classes of OS. Welcome the Revolution (or should I say evolution?)

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Not to start an OS X vs. XP war, but if a person cannot manage Windows XP without crashing it daily, then there's something severly wrong with the OPERATOR of the OS. I firmly believe it's JUST AS GOOD as OS X, it's simply different. You can't hardly say that XP is "wildly unstable" when over 90% of the world (banks & businesses that you rely on daily included) uses Windows machines and gets along just fine.

It's not "wildly unstable", but I do think it's quite a bit less stable than OS X. It doesn't handle multi-tasking as well either. Plus, it's ugly, and cumbersome. No thanks.

[BigDaddy]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Latitude X300:

Pentium M Processor 1.2Hz
12" TFT Display
512MB,1 DIMM, DDR TOTAL 640MB
40GB,HD,9.5MM,5400RPM
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Internal 56K Modem
MEDIABASE W/24X CDRW/DVD
Dell TrueMobile™ 1300 WLAN (802.11b/g,54Mbps) miniPCI Card

Price_ - $2,316.00 (from dell.com)

12" Powerbook:

867MHz G4
12" TFT Display
640MB
Combo drive
40GB HD
Airport Extreme
Internal 56K Modem
OS X 10.2.x

Price - $1,848.00 (retail)


Seems rather pricey in comparison. And that's with Apple's extra RAM and preinstalled Airport. Almost $500 more for similar configurations.

What is the service plan on the systems. I hope you are not comparing a one year mail in with three year at home. I just priced one and it looks like the Dell is 3 year at home and complete care and with Office. If you add Apple Care and office the price is close.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Latitude X300:

Pentium M Processor 1.2Hz
12" TFT Display
512MB,1 DIMM, DDR TOTAL 640MB
40GB,HD,9.5MM,5400RPM
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Internal 56K Modem
MEDIABASE W/24X CDRW/DVD
Dell TrueMobile™ 1300 WLAN (802.11b/g,54Mbps) miniPCI Card

Price_ - $2,316.00 (from dell.com)

12" Powerbook:

867MHz G4
12" TFT Display
640MB
Combo drive
40GB HD
Airport Extreme
Internal 56K Modem
OS X 10.2.x

Price - $1,848.00 (retail)


Seems rather pricey in comparison. And that's with Apple's extra RAM and preinstalled Airport. Almost $500 more for similar configurations.

is it just me, or are the dell specs VERY similar to the PowerBook's? the 12" display (obviously), the 640 max ram (with 128 soldiered on, i assume), the 24x combo drive, the 40gig hard drive, the 'mini PCI' 802.11g card...

[BigDaddy]

Yea except the Dell has a faster hard drive.

[AssassyN]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
I support several XP machines at work...

Trust me when I tell you this... it IS in fact MASSIVELY unstable in the hands of an inexperienced (Joe User). Yes, OSX can be too... but let me give you an example.

My girlfriend used OSX VERY infrequently before the inherited my laptop. She's by no means a complete novice, but was accustomed only to windows and even then only isolated to e-mail, WWW, and shockwave games. She uses my old ibook every day with NO ISSUE, EVER.

By comparison... I fix small issues on the XP machines at work on a DAILY basis. These are folks who have used Windows (98-2k) previously in a business environment. When we refresh (buy new hardware) machines, we usually take the opportunity to upgrade to XP essentially for free since we're already buying a new box. These people have all sorts of problems with XP. They don't always play nicely w/ our Win2k Advanced Server machine that houses all the client data, AD likes to forget passwords sometimes. Oh yeah, and XP's 802.11 support sucks, plain and simple. Try this sometime... On your PB, start a file transfer or other network operation while you're on airport. While it's in progress, plug in the ethernet (presumably connected to the same gateway) and wait about 30 seconds. Turn off airport.

Try that on XP sometime and see where it gets you

Just my $0.02... but OSX and XP are two ENTIRELY different classes of OS. Welcome the Revolution (or should I say evolution?)

Your entire post completely degrades OS X as an operating system for "novice" users. Granted, I used Win98 and dealt with HOARDS of issues/problems, but I became an expert user through it all. I've been *knock on wood* using the SAME INSTALL w/o a single format of WinXP on my Athlon 1.2Ghz box here since the year 2000. I do at least 3-5 things on it at once constantly, and it handles my multitasking perfectly. I dunno, it's different strokes for difference folks I suppose, but I've never had an issue w/ WinXP being unstable or problematic to me.

[justinf77]

Assassy, if I may ask, why stick with Apple then if you believe that XP is just as good? The hardware in the PC world is cheaper and generally more powerful. I am a Mac user for the Mac "experience." It is hard to sum up, but I am sure most of you know what I mean. I considered switching back to PC because I am so tired of waiting for new PowerBooks, but chose not to, because:

- I could not find a laptop that I did not think was ugly.

- I want an internal DVD burner, and those are hard to find on a lightweight PC.

- I want to use iSight. Great idea, works really well.

- iLife in general

More reasons I do not have the time to go into now...

[icruise]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
I've been *knock on wood* using the SAME INSTALL w/o a single format of WinXP on my Athlon 1.2Ghz box here since the year 2000.

I thought Windows XP wasn't released until the end of 2001

[AssassyN]

Granted, that was a typo on the number pad, I certainly did intend "2001".

At any rate, I use BOTH platforms equally as they both have their pros/cons (have I said this before?). You're absolutely right, the Mac experience is FAR more fun than the Windows experience, thus I use Macs. However Windows systems have their strong points in my life, thus I use Windows also. There's nothing wrong with being ambidextrous (sp?).

BTW, I wouldn't take that Dell over my 12" PB if it cost $100.

[kenikov]

- I could not find a laptop that I did not think was ugly.

- I want an internal DVD burner, and those are hard to find on a lightweight PC.

Check here: http://www.dynamism.com

They may have them. It is a website that sells the most technically advanced laptops made from Japanese companies, some less than 2lbs.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by BigDaddy:
What is the service plan on the systems. I hope you are not comparing a one year mail in with three year at home. I just priced one and it looks like the Dell is 3 year at home and complete care and with Office. If you add Apple Care and office the price is close.

And I hope you're not comparing the crappy Dell service with Applecare. Dell doesn't even offer a warranty that's as valuable as Applecare, to do so would boost Dell's price by another $300 easily. And I don't care what Dell's warranty "says", I've experienced they're best add-on warranty and it was pretty awful. The guy showed up to fix it alright, 2 days late. And when he left he had to take it with him because the machine still didn't work. Pitiful. BTW, the service was "done" by GE, Dell doesn't even certify these guys to work on their stuff, and all they need to be qualified to work on a Dell is A+ certification and that's a joke.

And no, the Dell price configuration I looked up didn't include Office. That was the price without it. If it had included Office XP, I would have indicated that.

Bottom line is, it's similar to the PB 12 but more expensive and more cumbersome because of the external drive. It may be a bit quicker, but I'll take the higher quality and portability over that any day. You did notice that the Dell uses system RAM for it's video memory, didn't you?

Now, if you wan to talk about a fast, truly portable full featured Windows machine, then you have to look at the Panasonic W2. Though, it's QUITE a bit more than the PB 12. It's almost $3K with the 512MB upgd, and even it uses system RAM for it's video memory.

http://www.dynamism.com/w2/index.shtml

I have to admit the Panasonic looks very sweet, it would make an absolutely awesome Linux portable (no stupid parallel port either), price not withstanding.

There just isn't a Windows portable that truly competes hardware-wise with the PB 12 for awesome price, portability, durability, style, and quality. Yes, it lacks a bit in speed by comparison, but it more than gets the job done.

[kenikov]

It lacks in speed for a "Power"book. They should've just made it an iBook.

It lacks in weight too. Very heavy compared to those at the site I provided.

I see you went there. Did you know about that site before I mentioned it? It is a really cool site but isn't very famous.

[hldan]

Originally posted by David Hagan:
As was alluded to in an article on Digitimes in early July, Dell has just rolled out their new 12-inch, the Latitude X300 (for business) and Inspiron 300M (for consumers).

What's surprising is just how well Apple competes for both features and price. A big drawback on the Dell is the external optical drive.

The Dell is cool but I gave up using Windows for one main reason. "Drama". XP is cool in looks and memory management but still has the elements of previous Windows.
Upon installing a Windows program it still shares bits and pieces of the newly installed program with other installed programs thus making uninstalling a nightmare at times.

The Mac OS has always been just drag and drop. If you don't want a file then just drop in the trash and that's it. You hardly ever have to uninstall a Mac program and it doesn't share files of programs in other directories.
Windows PC's are only hyped on speed. They are never hyped on the operating system and the native programs as the Mac OS.

[Toyin]

We run XP at work on several computers and what strikes me is how slow it is compared to OSX. Our newest machine is a Dell desktop with a 2ghz P4 and it rarely feels faster than my 3 year old Dual 500, and definitely slower than my 12" PB with a 7200rpm HD. Granted I have more RAM (PB 640, Dualie 1.5gb, P4 256mb), but somethings take so long on the PC. The only thing that's faster is IE.

I much, much, prefer Win2K professional, which IMHO is the best windows OS out there. It flies on my work computer (1.8ghz P4 with 768mb ram)

As far as these new laptops, they're not fully featured if the drive isn't part of the unit. Imagine how small the 12"PB would be if you removed the combo or superdrive.

[forcelite]

I have used both for a very long time, so I see tons of situations. I believe windows 2000 is the most stable windows version.

Also windows will always have its shortfalls, like lack of integrated optimized drivers, adapti drivers (older), tcip nightmares, wifi complications, lack of cd/dvd burning integrated in the operating system. Also I dont like how you have to use 3 different programs to get one thing done. Take for instance you want to download , listen and burn cd's (legally)

So you use buy music (1), listen to it in winamp to get the right mix (2), load the songs in nero to burn (3). It took 3 programs to do one task.

Less viruses for OSX too

Itunes does it all

Now for the mac OSX side, its great it UNIX based, but I dont like the lack of support from software compaines. If it wasnt for apple we wouldnt have half the drivers we do and wouldnt be ablt to use the harware either,(ms bluetooth is perfect example)

There are a good amount of cd-rw's for mac osx, BUT only a few are able to burn nativly with itunes, finder, ect


Pro's and cons, but most of the cons are purley lack of support from software people, which can be solved if apple expands it market share wisely

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Your entire post completely degrades OS X as an operating system for "novice" users. Granted, I used Win98 and dealt with HOARDS of issues/problems, but I became an expert user through it all. I've been *knock on wood* using the SAME INSTALL w/o a single format of WinXP on my Athlon 1.2Ghz box here since the year 2000. I do at least 3-5 things on it at once constantly, and it handles my multitasking perfectly. I dunno, it's different strokes for difference folks I suppose, but I've never had an issue w/ WinXP being unstable or problematic to me.

That's my point... it definitely wasn't to degrade X...

My point was that your XP installation, and AssassyN's, and others that "work well" are the result of you knowing how to maintain/care for them. If you DON'T know, XP can be a real bitch sometimes... OSX however doesn't suffer the same problem, or at least to a much lesser degree. In the hands of an expert, OSX is a very powerful OS, THE most powerful depending on your point of view and how you quantify "power". (XP can be at times as well, in the hands of an expert)... but in the hands of a novice it's brilliance is highlighted even further by the lack of support required.

Like I said, no X-bashing intentions here... sorry if it came off that way.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by Toyin:
I much, much, prefer Win2K professional, which IMHO is the best windows OS out there. It flies on my work computer (1.8ghz P4 with 768mb ram)

Amen on the Win2k Pro...

I wish I could've talked them out of it, but the suits decreed we needed to start migrating to XP to be "current" in the eyes of our clients... really stupid if you ask me, and it's causing us a REAL headache at times.

Oh well... IF I were running a Windows machine for some reason (my old, now unused dekstop at the office is 2kpro) it would be Win2k Pro. Stable, fast, reliable by Windows standards.

[off/lang]

Honestly, I think that XP is a step backwards for Windows (from 2000, not from ME).

I mean, it seems like they tried to dumb down everything so it was easier, but in doing so they made it a whole lot harder to actually configure things if you know what you're doing. I really don't have time to go through a bunch of wizards--just give me a panel and I'll choose the settings I want myself. I really am reminded of how much I love OSX every time I use XP.

Having said that, I really enjoy fast user switching, and my XP box has an uptime of months--it just doesn't crash (though mostly I just let it crunch RC5 packets all day, sometimes using it for the few Windows only things I need).

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by BigDaddy:
Right I am sure that Gates hates only having 90% of the market. XP rocks as does OSX. I do not get why people hate it.

+


http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/08/04/xp

That should just about answer your question

[docholiday]

It's an impresssive notebook and would probably beat the current 12" G4 PB in terms of performance. The XGA display is nicer than the 12" PB. Also the fact that USB2 is supported is a big plus.
However, I can get a similiarly priced PB with slightly better features: more RAM, Superdrive integrated, Bluetooth, bigger HD... And most important of all, the PB has an OS that I love, and new users can learn to love.

If Apple doesn't release a new notebook soon, I will probably end up purchasing a Dell, as much as I would like to go for a beautiful PB.
Oh well, let's see how the PB update lottery turns out...

[Michel_80]

I am waiting for someone like Sony or IBM to put out an 12incher with integrated cdrw. (I know Sony has one at 10 inch but thats too small and expensive).

[polendo]

Originally posted by Michel_80:
I am waiting for someone like Sony or IBM to put out an 12incher with integrated cdrw. (I know Sony has one at 10 inch but thats too small and expensive).

Sony has one. The 505.. it comes at 1499 or something like that for the celeron 1,8 ghz or for 2,300 for the 2.4 ghz. It comes with cdrw. I don't know the whole specs, but they come std with 256 MB RAM.

A previous version of the 505 had like a dock.,. i haven't seen it on this version of the 505, so i presume it is included on the cpu.

[kenikov]

As far as these new laptops, they're not fully featured if the drive isn't part of the unit. Imagine how small the 12"PB would be if you removed the combo or superdrive.

Actually, you are wrong. Most of the notebooks there are full-featured. Even if you removed the optical drive from the Powerbook, it would still weigh more than the notebooks there. Also, keep in mind that some of the notebooks there have a larger screen.

The notebooks there are also faster, with better CPU.

They are just plain better than the Powerbook 12-inch, admit it.

[BigDaddy]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
And I hope you're not comparing the crappy Dell service with Applecare. Dell doesn't even offer a warranty that's as valuable as Applecare, to do so would boost Dell's price by another $300 easily. And I don't care what Dell's warranty "says", I've experienced they're best add-on warranty and it was pretty awful. The guy showed up to fix it alright, 2 days late. And when he left he had to take it with him because the machine still didn't work. Pitiful. BTW, the service was "done" by GE, Dell doesn't even certify these guys to work on their stuff, and all they need to be qualified to work on a Dell is A+ certification and that's a joke.

And no, the Dell price configuration I looked up didn't include Office. That was the price without it. If it had included Office XP, I would have indicated that.

Bottom line is, it's similar to the PB 12 but more expensive and more cumbersome because of the external drive. It may be a bit quicker, but I'll take the higher quality and portability over that any day. You did notice that the Dell uses system RAM for it's video memory, didn't you?

Now, if you wan to talk about a fast, truly portable full featured Windows machine, then you have to look at the Panasonic W2. Though, it's QUITE a bit more than the PB 12. It's almost $3K with the 512MB upgd, and even it uses system RAM for it's video memory.

http://www.dynamism.com/w2/index.shtml

I have to admit the Panasonic looks very sweet, it would make an absolutely awesome Linux portable (no stupid parallel port either), price not withstanding.

There just isn't a Windows portable that truly competes hardware-wise with the PB 12 for awesome price, portability, durability, style, and quality. Yes, it lacks a bit in speed by comparison, but it more than gets the job done.

So what was the service on the Dell. You still did not answer the question.

[Toyin]

Originally posted by kenikov:
Actually, you are wrong. Most of the notebooks there are full-featured. Even if you removed the optical drive from the Powerbook, it would still weigh more than the notebooks there. Also, keep in mind that some of the notebooks there have a larger screen.

The notebooks there are also faster, with better CPU.

They are just plain better than the Powerbook 12-inch, admit it.

Still going to disagree with you. My 12"PB has the superdrive and that in itself has made it better for me regardless. I've completed 5 iDVD projects for friends and family since I got my 12" PB and have backed up so many documents and projects it's unbelievable.

As far as performance is concerned, as I mentioned above a 2ghz P4 running XP professional feels pokier than my PB in most tasks. So I doubt these laptops will be faster than the 12" PB and if they are the difference would be insignificant

I recently took apart my PB and I don't know how much a superdrive weighs, but it takes up at least 30% of the volume in the PB.

on a side note: nothing can create that "ooooh" factor when people see the 12" PB.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by BigDaddy:
So what was the service on the Dell. You still did not answer the question.

The service plan on the systems was 1 yr Apple mail-in warranty vs 3 yr mail-in warranty standard mail-in warranty on the Dell. But, if you add Applecare to the Powerbook, the PB 12 is still less expensive, by about $200.

The issue with the Latitude was a bad motherboard. The part they sent to replace it was defective and the system wouldn't boot when the technician replaced it, or I suppose the technician they sent to fix it could have damaged the board. I don't know. That's not a very reassuring situation given that they paid so much more for the premium warranty (because they couldn't afford much down-time). Anyway, that was the last Dell they ever bought. They've since switched to Thinkpads and Powerbooks and have been much happier.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by kenikov:

The notebooks there are also faster, with better CPU.

They are just plain better than the Powerbook 12-inch, admit it.

Faster doesn't always = better. I'd rather have better quality, personally, but that's just my opinion. The 12" PB has impeccable build quality and unparalled integration with the OS. That is worth more to me than a bit more percieved performance.

[kenikov]

Still going to disagree with you. My 12"PB has the superdrive and that in itself has made it better for me regardless. I've completed 5 iDVD projects for friends and family since I got my 12" PB and have backed up so many documents and projects it's unbelievable.

What stops someone from getting a better, faster external DVD-RW? If one really needed it, they could get a nicer one than the one found on your Powerbook.

As far as performance is concerned, as I mentioned above a 2ghz P4 running XP professional feels pokier than my PB in most tasks. So I doubt these laptops will be faster than the 12" PB and if they are the difference would be insignificant

You can say whatever you want, you are still wrong. The CPU is clearly faster. You probably only say this because you own the machine, and have the instinct to protect it. I have the same feelings for all my computers, including my Mac. I've used the 12-inch Powerbook, it isn't that speedy. I would not say it is that much faster than my iBook either, as a Pentium 4 would be to a Pentium 3.

I think you need to scan your 2GHz for corrupted files, or anything else that is slowing it down.

It is faster, plain and simple. It also has better battery-life thanks to the Pentium M.

Pentium M have been winning benchmark tests ever since it came out. It is faster, and unless you can prove it scientifically, your observations don't mean much.

I recently took apart my PB and I don't know how much a superdrive weighs, but it takes up at least 30% of the volume in the PB.

Go to the site and check out how much those notebooks weigh. If you were to take out the Optical Drives out of the Panasonic or Sony Computers there, they would weigh close to nothing. My notebook is 2.84lbs with its drive, I doubt yours is lighter WITHOUT. If you want to take out the drives though, I can do so and cut it down to 1lbs.

on a side note: nothing can create that "ooooh" factor when people see the 12" PB.

It is a computer, not a BMW for God's sake (please don't flame me. I know many here like Porsche). Also, if you have nothing better to do then "turn heads" at the local Starbucks because of your computer, then I suggest you take-up a new hobby. You should bring-up a better case than that of "better look at it".


When you see a notebook like the Panasonic W2, a notebook with Combo-drive, Pentium M, 12-inch screen and it only weighs 2.84lbs, it will turn heads.

How can you even compare yours to something that is so technologically advanced, that it just came out in Japan and they don't sell it here?

The notebooks at those sites are lighter, faster or have better battery-life than your computer. Others lacking some of these merits have a larger screen.

On a second note, the laptop with a 14.1inch screen is still lighter than the 12-inch Powerbook.

[AssassyN]

Originally posted by kenikov:
What stops someone from getting a better, faster external DVD-RW? If one really needed it, they could get a nicer one than the one found on your Powerbook.



You can say whatever you want, you are still wrong. The CPU is clearly faster. You probably only say this because you own the machine, and I've used it, it isn't that speedy.

I think you need to scan your 2GHz for corrupted files, or anything else that is slowing it down.

It is faster, plain and simple. It also has better battery-life thanks to the Pentium M.

Pentium M have been winning benchmark tests ever since it came out. It is faster, and unless you can prove it scientifically, your observations don't mean much.



Go to the site and check out how much those notebooks weigh. If you were to take out the Optical Drives out of the Panasonic or Sony Computers there, they would weigh close to nothing. My notebook is 2.84lbs with its drive, I doubt yours is lighter WITHOUT. If you want to take out the drives though, I can do so and cut it down to 1lbs.



It is a computer, not a BMW for God's sake (please don't flame me. I know many here like Porsche).

When you see a notebook like the Panasonic W2, a notebook with Combo-drive, Pentium M, 12-inch screen and it only weighs 2.84lbs, it will turn heads.

How can you even compare yours to something that is so technologically advanced, that it just came out in Japan and they don't sell it here?

The notebooks at those sites are lighter, faster or have better battery-life than your computer. Others lacking some of these merits have a larger screen.

On a second note, the laptop with a 14.1inch screen is still lighter than the 12-inch Powerbook.

Youch...I'm talkin' "shot downnn"

[kenikov]

The 12" PB has impeccable build quality and unparalled integration with the OS. That is worth more to me than a bit more percieved perform

I realize this is your opinion, but what makes you think that the notebooks at that site aren't the same?

Impeccable build? Panasonic Toughbooks are better built than any Powerbook. It is really hard to damage one. In fact, people in the Army, Field Electricians and Firefighters or Policemen use them.

un-parallel integration with the OS? Kind of odd, since most hardware is made to go with Windows, and hardware listed on Linux sites work with Linux perfectly. Note: USB?

You can make Linux the ultimate OS, to integrate with you and the computer. I don't see the problem here.

Performance? That is a very large part of the computer, and the computers at those sites perform pretty decent considering they weigh less than 4lbs to under 2lbs.

Some, I would say give better performance (including battery-life, and less heat), than that of the Powerbook 12-inch.

In fact, for $1399, I can't see the Powerbook 12-inch being "worth it".

[icruise]

I've living in Japan for years, and have visited the Akihabara electronics district many times. I know what the state of the art in Japanese laptops is, and there are some very nice machines out there. But I can honestly say that none of them can beat the powerbook when it comes to the balance of overall performance, usability, beauty and price. Apple only makes a handful of models, and so there will always be computer makers that can put out machines that are faster, cheaper, lighter, or whatever, but you are always making some sacrifices somewhere. If you want a cheap machine, you get a cheaply-made machine. If you want something lightning-fast, it will also be a brick. If it is lighter, it will also be missing something, whether it is performance, an internal drive or whatever. The powerbook is a nearly perfect balance.

Add to this the fact that it runs what we consider to be a much superior OS to Windows or Linux and you have a very attractive package for many people. If you don't like it, buy a windows machine and be happy. But please don't think that we are morons for what we choose. There really are reasons to prefer the powerbook.

[kenikov]

Your whole post was basically just opinionated. It means nothing, but simply what you prefer on an untechnical and unscientific approach.

Feel free to justify in detail what you said.

I hope you realize, there are notebooks out there that offer what the Powerbook does that is lighter.

Linux is a better OS than Mac. Anybody who has used Linux to its full potential would tell you.

That is why Linux is the OS of choice for Computer Science classes and Computer Science PhD students.

[I Me Mine]

.

[Link]

I don't care if it has a built in subwoofer, air conditioning, v6 engine, chrome plated keyboard..

it's still a dell and I'm not buying it. I hate that *(#$&$#ing brand since I see it everywhere.. even the #@*@#$&ing supermarket has dells all over the *(^$@#$ing place!

[Toyin]

Originally posted by kenikov:
What stops someone from getting a better, faster external DVD-RW? If one really needed it, they could get a nicer one than the one found on your Powerbook.

If one really needed just a DVD burner one could always buy an external DVD-RW but, A) That defeats the portability of a 12" laptop and B) iDVD support is sketchy with external DVD burners.

Originally posted by kenikov:
You can say whatever you want, you are still wrong. The CPU is clearly faster. You probably only say this because you own the machine, and have the instinct to protect it. I have the same feelings for all my computers, including my Mac. I've used the 12-inch Powerbook, it isn't that speedy. I would not say it is that much faster than my iBook either, as a Pentium 4 would be to a Pentium 3

I'm not a friggin' dog. My instinct doesn't tell me what to say. I could care less what you think. I bought the 12" before Pentium M was released. I have no buyer's remorse.

Benchmarks are shite in my book. I need to be productive on the machine, rendering a filter 10% faster is not going to make up for all the time it takes me to fight wizards and it won't account for the fact that I don't like what I'm working with. (and isn't the P4 slower than the P3 ghz/ghz?)

Originally posted by kenikov:
I think you need to scan your 2GHz for corrupted files, or anything else that is slowing it down.

No we have more than one computer that uses XP and they all seem pokey. It's probably a RAM issue, but I would think a processor that is 2x faster would make up for it. My computer at work runs Win2K professional and I'm happy with that.

Originally posted by kenikov:
It is faster, plain and simple. It also has better battery-life thanks to the Pentium M.

Pentium M have been winning benchmark tests ever since it came out. It is faster, and unless you can prove it scientifically, your observations don't mean much.

My observations mean nothing, but quotes like," I've used the 12-inch Powerbook, it isn't that speedy." are?

I'll give you the battery life.

Originally posted by kenikov:
Go to the site and check out how much those notebooks weigh. If you were to take out the Optical Drives out of the Panasonic or Sony Computers there, they would weigh close to nothing. My notebook is 2.84lbs with its drive, I doubt yours is lighter WITHOUT. If you want to take out the drives though, I can do so and cut it down to 1lbs.

I never said anything about weight, I talked about size. Don't worry I'm a big boy, I can take the extra 1-2lbs of weight.

Originally posted by kenikov:

It is a computer, not a BMW for God's sake (please don't flame me. I know many here like Porsche). Also, if you have nothing better to do then "turn heads" at the local Starbucks because of your computer, then I suggest you take-up a new hobby. You should bring-up a better case than that of "better look at it".

A computer is for work, a car is to get from point A to B. How you arrive there is personal. The analogy for cars works perfectly for computers. I don't like Windows, I tolerate it. I like OSX. I like the quality, the feel, the fit and finish of the Aluminum PB.

I'm a physician, with a beautiful wife and son. I have a life thank you.

Originally posted by kenikov:

When you see a notebook like the Panasonic W2, a notebook with Combo-drive, Pentium M, 12-inch screen and it only weighs 2.84lbs, it will turn heads.

The ooooh comment was a joke. I didn't buy the PB to turn heads, that was an added bonus.

Originally posted by kenikov:
How can you even compare yours to something that is so technologically advanced, that it just came out in Japan and they don't sell it here?

And your point is? I thought we're talking about the 12" Dell?

kenikov, you don't get it. I have one PC at home and have access to many PC's at work. Quite frankly they do their job and that's about it. I don't like working on them, and I get no emotional response from them. So to throw down$2000 for a PC laptop was not an option for me.

Thanks for the argument, but I do have a life and this will be my last post in this thread.

[Simon]

Originally posted by kenikov:
Your whole post was basically just opinionated. It means nothing

How dare you say somebody's post means nothing! Since when is it up to you to say which post means something? That's simply rude. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. All you do here on these boards is spread FUD, flame and try to piss people off.

You have a post count that hardly puts you in the position of somebody who could judge who's posts mean something and who's don't.

Opinionated? Like this babbling of yours:

Originally posted by kenikov:
Linux is a better OS than Mac.

You are the one that is trying to sell his own little "opinion" (others would call it trolling) as an objective truth.

I'll tell ya what. You're on a Mac board here. If you want to spread unqualified anti-Mac crap you have definitely come to the wrong place. People will tear you up and spit you out before you can say "troll".

So either accept the facts others contribute (and their judgement) or deliver some facts of your own, but don't believe for one second that anybody will take you seriously here if all you can do is say "Macs suck, this or that PC is better because I said so...".

That said, I can only agree and second Icruise's opinion:

But I can honestly say that none of them can beat the powerbook when it comes to the balance of overall performance, usability, beauty and price.

The university that runs my lab is offering me $3000 to go out an buy one of those little ugly Dell X300s and all the bells and whistles I want to go with it. They would put RedHat Linux on it. I declined. I will go and buy a 12" PowerBook with my own money, just because the Dell is an ugly, flimsy, hacked-together POS. The superiority of the 12" PowerBook running OS X is more than evident to me.

[jsnyder]

I've just recently taken the plunge with a 12" PowerBook, decked out with max ram, airport, applecare, superdrive, etc and I couldn't possibly be happier. The build quality of this machine is impeccable. Every aspect of it shows excellent fit and finish.

In terms of usability, I originally gave up my 2.4 GHz P4 and switched to an iBook because I'd had it with PC hardware reliability as well as XP (not in terms of stability, it was rock solid when RAM or other components weren't bad). The reason I couldn't stand XP is basically the "half-life" referred to in the article linked earlier in this thread (http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/08/04/xp). Over time, XP becomes less and less usable. This process is accelerated by trying out different bits and pieces of software. The uninstall processes must not be doing a good enough job as the machine gets slower and slower with more installs/uninstalls. This reeks of poor design to me. Beyond filling up my HDD to the brim, or actually starting a slew of CPU consuming processes, my machine should NOT bog down after I've been using the same install for 1 year. Nor should it bog down simply because I haven't rebooted in several days. This again reeks of poor design.

The iBook WAS indeed way slower than the PC I had formerly, but I was willing to take this hit to get something that was reliable and wouldn't slowly consume itself over time. A reinstall should never be necessary unless you've got a bad HDD, or bad RAM which has caused filesystem corruption, or if you've gone in and deleted critical system files. The iBook was a joy to use, despite its sluggishness, and when I had a problem with it the Apple support folks were friendly and capable (and from this country. IMHO outsourcing support to a country whose native language is different from the main user base you're supporting is a bad idea in the long and short term. I'm sure other folks here have had similar experiences to ones I've had walking a friend through Compaq support).

After having a relatively trouble free, and enjoyable experience with the iBook, I picked up a 12" G4, and I am more than happy with it. In almost every respect it meets and beats my expectations. The only area where it lags behind the iBook is battery life which is about 30-40 minutes shorter. I would NEVER trade this machine for and PC of any configuration.

In response to the earlier post regarding linux, indeed it is highly configurable. You can tweak it in almost every way imaginable, but I was never satisfied with it as a desktop OS. Everything uses different libraries, different gui widgets, and everything requires quite a bit of tweaking to get it to a point where everything is configured properly. It certainly holds together better once everything is configured, when compared with windows, but it still requires a fair amount of effort. RPM based distributions are horrendous, Debian is better but rather stale and the package system isn't perfect. Gentoo comes about as close to a perfect linux distribution as I can think of (some of you may chime in about *BSD at this point. yes it may be even better than Gentoo in some cases, but the init system, combined with where portage is now might be tough to beat). Even with all of this tweakability, I was never satisfied with the end results. It was never just right. Combine with that the lack of availability of Photoshop, and Flash in NATIVE and SUPPORTED forms (yes I know it runs under wine) and it doesn't suit my needs on the desktop. It's an excellent server, in fact I sysadmin a gentoo box, but its not a good desktop solution, for me.

Well, that was a total rant, and one likely to get me flamed I suppose. Basically it all comes down to what your needs are and what you're comfortable with. The PowerBook should by no means be deemed a foolish purchase, nor should the better PC options out there. If you're accustomed to it and it helps you get work done, or you get enjoyment out of it, use it. If you don't then perhaps its time to switch from whatever you've got, be it PC or Mac.

edit: oops pasted in the wrong link earlier. corrected now

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by kenikov:
Your whole post was basically just opinionated. It means nothing, but simply what you prefer on an untechnical and unscientific approach.

Feel free to justify in detail what you said.

I hope you realize, there are notebooks out there that offer what the Powerbook does that is lighter.

Linux is a better OS than Mac. Anybody who has used Linux to its full potential would tell you.

That is why Linux is the OS of choice for Computer Science classes and Computer Science PhD students.

Linux isn't better than OS X, you're full of sh*t there. Linux still isn't ready for "Prime Time", it may have good functionality, but it's visual appeal and general asthetics are still lacking. I know many CS PhDs, and most of them use Macs and PCs with XP, very few use or even care about Linux. This is mostly because Linux still doesn't have much of a foothold in the REAL business world.

And to answer your other comment... No, there isn't another notebook that offers what the Powerbook does, because no other notebook runs OS X (other than the iBook).

When you see a notebook like the Panasonic W2, a notebook with Combo-drive, Pentium M, 12-inch screen and it only weighs 2.84lbs, it will turn heads.

And how much is the W2? Wow! It's $2700! that's quite a bit more than the 12" Powerbook, don't ya think?

BTW, this is a Mac forum, dude. You may just want to go hang with the Windows people instead, we're really not open to being "evangelised" to.

Don't let the door wack your bum on the way out!

[y2kerr]

I'll tell you the big advantage of XP over OS X:

Half-Life 2

It's the only reason I'm considering getting a Windows notebook! It's not a good reason, but boy is it tempting. I really, really hope it gets ported over...