Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Robster1958 · Sep 7, 2003, 09:25 AM

Not sure that I will get rid of my iBook (unless for the rev.B 12" PB,if it ever comes out), but i just got a windows laptop for work-related use and have been very impressed.

I just bought the newest tiny Sony laptop (PCG-TR1). It is hands down the best portable DVD player I have had....better than an early Pany L50, better than Tosh2000, better than my Apple iBook.

The widescreen (10.5" diag.) resolution is 1280 x 768...and it is coated with some new process that gives it...dare i say...depth!....movies look outrageously good. Black level is stunning; viewing angle is forgiving, software controls robust. Sound of course is modest, but headphones give some simulated surround.

Oh...and this 3.1 pound machine also is a Centrino-class machine with built in wi-fi, 512 MB ram, 30 GB hard drive, CD-R/DVD, camera built-in. Battery life is excellent at around 3 hrs. When i cant be watching a movie, i have a Windows XP pc with MS Office, games, etc. Firewire port, two USB2 ports, ehternet and phone jacks, PCMCIA card slot, memory stick slot.

Ok...ok...it costs $2099. But the truth is, its the first laptop that i carry all the time.

andreas_g4 · Sep 7, 2003, 09:33 AM

Link?

Cipher13 · Sep 7, 2003, 09:47 AM

But it runs Windows...

Robster1958 · Sep 7, 2003, 09:59 AM

but it runs windows.......
=================================

ah..the rub. which is of course why my first sentence was that i will not likely get rid of my iBook, except for a PB. moreover, unless iTunes for windows and the apple music store give the same interface, my iPod is wed to OSX.

that being said, XP is not that bad...again i was surprised. the wi-fi software connects me as easily as airport; i have not crashed the system yet...

the link:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...uters_TRSeries

darcybaston · Sep 7, 2003, 10:03 AM

Could it be this one?

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ctSKU=PCGTR1AP

Robster1958 · Sep 7, 2003, 10:14 AM

that's the one...except with XP pro. I could only find the XP home model (only diff. is the os). funny thing is sony online sells these for $100 more than msrp! may upgrade to xp pro, but not sure if i need to.

here's another link to cnet reviews:

http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_VAIO_PC...l?tag=pdtl-img

Lebensm�de · Sep 7, 2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Robster1958:
here's another link to cnet reviews:

http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_VAIO_PC...l?tag=pdtl-img

Why does the built-in camera look different on this one than on the other one linked to above?

StiZeven · Sep 7, 2003, 01:20 PM

I too was looking at the TR1. It is a gorgeous and well made mini notebook with a clear, bright, flawless and sharp screen (blows my PowerBook's screen away). That Centrino chip is VERY powerful (which has a 1MB cache) and is great on battery life. When they say 4 hours of battery, they mean it and with real-time use, not the usual lie that all PC Makers (including Apple) like to tell.

However, the thing that stopped me from buying the TR1 was the ridiculously small HD. If I am going to have a mini notebook with me wherever I go, I want my MP3 collection stored on there, at that alone is 30GB. To make matters worse, Sony is using the Toshiba 1.8" hard drives (yes, the same ones you'd find in all iPods) which is NOT user upgradeable, more expensive, inherently slower, and currently cap out at 40GB. Had Sony used a standard 2.5" HD (and they could have) then I would have bought one.

So, now I have my eye on the Fujitsu LifeBook P5000 series. It's VERY small (about the same size as the TR1), the screen is stunning (it has a coating as well and the blacks are so rich and deep), it's got a nice and clean design, it has built in DVD/CDRW swappable drive, very long battery life, built in CF, SD and MS readers, a PCMCIA reader, and the RAM, HD and MiniPCI Ethernet card (with an 802.11/g option) are user-upgradeable. It's a bit faster than the TR1 thanks to the HD and the Fujitsu and all of its options and upgrades are a lot cheaper (which doesn't sway my decision, but it's a nice little extra). You could also swap out the 24X CDRW/DVD drive for a modular bay battery. That will give you at least 7 hours of up-time. Fujitsu also has very good support and customer service which is Sony's weak spot (Apple's too). But, like Sony and Apple, Fujitsu has very good build quality.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4505-3122_7-...;tag=pdtl-list

However, if the HD is not an issue, then the TR1 is an awesome machine for those of us who actually use and enjoy both PCs and Macs without the ridiculous either-or nonsense always see posted. So, have fun with the new toy!

StiZeven · Sep 7, 2003, 01:35 PM

I should also add that I would love for Apple to come out with a PowerBook with this form. A tiny notebook with a wide aspect display and everything built in. Putting my 12" PowerBook next to these new Mini Notebooks makes the PowerBook look HUGE! Makes you point your finger at Apple and ask why THEY couldn't incorporate flash readers, a PC Card slot into the 12" PowerBook chassis? Sure the PowerBook is thinner, but the foot print is what I go for:

Graymalkin · Sep 7, 2003, 01:56 PM

I certainly didn't need or want a Compect Flash reader in my Powerbook. I really don't like paying for stuff I'm not going to use. A PC Card option would have also been a waste of money and space for me. I needed the PC Card on my Lombard for Firewire and wireless networking. Save for USB2 or Firewire 800 my 12" Powerbook can connect to just about any periphrial I want.

The Powerbook is also pretty damn small. I compared the size of my Powerbook to my friend's new 12" iBook. It is just enough bigger to make my Powerbook look absolutely tiny. Just because somebody makes a smaller notebook doesn't mean my Powerbook or my friend's iBook are huge. Sheesh.

If you want a Windows notebook go grab one, I'll be happy using my MSBlaster/Nimda/SoBig free Powerbook just fine.

CrazedVW · Sep 7, 2003, 02:42 PM

The killer on that for me would be the screen. I used a Vaio SR5K for two years and I never could use it for more then a maybe two hours without my eyes hurting pretty bad from the strain. Granted, it was a 10.4 inch 800x600 display but I can't imagine it being much different then the widesceen one on that other notebook. With the higher resolution though, I'd think it would be just as tough.
Of course, not everyone's eyes are as bad as mine.

StiZeven · Sep 7, 2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Graymalkin:
I certainly didn't need or want a Compect Flash reader in my Powerbook. I really don't like paying for stuff I'm not going to use. A PC Card option would have also been a waste of money and space for me. I needed the PC Card on my Lombard for Firewire and wireless networking. Save for USB2 or Firewire 800 my 12" Powerbook can connect to just about any periphrial I want.

The Powerbook is also pretty damn small. I compared the size of my Powerbook to my friend's new 12" iBook. It is just enough bigger to make my Powerbook look absolutely tiny. Just because somebody makes a smaller notebook doesn't mean my Powerbook or my friend's iBook are huge. Sheesh.

If you want a Windows notebook go grab one, I'll be happy using my MSBlaster/Nimda/SoBig free Powerbook just fine.

Oh god, a typical reply from a typical Mac Zealot. Who made this thread about you or your specific needs? I guess since YOU don't want or need flash readers or at least a PC card slot, then there CERTAINLY shouldn't be one in the PowerBook! Sure, one could argue that *I* am ranting about *my* needs, but at the end of the day, having an unobtrusive flash reader built into a PowerBook is a nice option to have whether you use it or not. Who's to say you won't use it in the future?

Some of us use Digital Cameras and other peripherals that use SD Cards and CF Cards and we don't like to carry around 3rd party flash readers (sort of adds unneeded bulk when carrying around the PowerBook). I think built-in flash readers would fit nicely in Apple's 'iLife' and 'Digital Hub' concept and atmosphere.

And, just like the iBook looks large against the 12" PowerBook, I stated the same above as the 12" PowerBook looks large against the Fujitsu which packs more power, battery life and features into a small form factor (which was the point I am making, not whether or not you're a PC user, or what you need or want in YOUR Powerbook).

Also, Apple wouldn't raise the price by adding in a flash card reader or two, that would be ridiculous. If Apple does come out with a Mini Notebook with all these features for us road warriors, no one is going to force you to by one. It's all about options, which is something Apple doesn't offer too many of.

Simon · Sep 7, 2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by StiZeven:
Oh god, a typical reply from a typical Mac Zealot. Who made this thread about you or your specific needs? I guess since YOU don't want or need flash readers or at least a PC card slot, then there CERTAINLY shouldn't be one in the PowerBook.

Aaaaah, shut up. He's not a Zealot because he doesn't agree with you. No more than you would be one btw.

He's not the only one with that opinion.

Face the facts. The majority of the 12" Mac portable community couldn't care less about PC Card slots. We are a majority. Why should we pay for a minority's gadgets? Huh?

No way. Apple listens to the largest fraction and doesn't make them pay for silly gimmicks a minority might want.

And that's the way it should be. Want something else? Fine. Get a PC and leave. Thanks.

NYCFarmboy · Sep 7, 2003, 03:25 PM

Very nice discussion going on here...

The small Sony laptops are VERY nice.

I use a 500 mhz 12" white ibook, and it works on airplanes just barely, but would prefer something much smaller.

I've been waiting on Rev B 12" Powerbooks..but if the Rev B 12's aren'g G5 or minimum 1.25 G4's I'd definately consider one of these. I think the current G4 12" powerbooks are very underpowered.

I think Apple needs to come out with a much smaller Powerbook similar to the laptops being discussed here.

And the screen..yes..the 12" Powerbook and 12" ibook screens are identical. Both using 2 year old technology.

Its about freaking time for better screens from Apple.

bleee · Sep 7, 2003, 03:30 PM

It says you can get 7hrs of use out of it, have you been able to get anywhere near that on a full charge? I'm quite happy with my iBook the only beef I have with Apple is that they claim 5hrs of battery life and I never got anywhere close to that and I have to replace my battery already it's just a year old. But they are being real pricks I have to take my iBook into some certified Apple repair place so they can test the battery which apparently take a week.

Scooterboy · Sep 7, 2003, 03:42 PM

Agreed! Apple always seems to lag when it comes to implementing new screen technology. XMA and and X-bright screens are shipping, and those laptops with them are selling very well. Better resolution, brightness, contrast, and increased veiwing angle is becoming more important to notebook users as notebooks are used more and more with multimedia i.e. games and DVD particularly. I don't know, maybe it's getting the newer screens to work with ColorSync that pushes back Apple adopting them.

StiZeven · Sep 7, 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Simon:
Aaaaah, shut up. He's not a Zealot because he doesn't agree with you. No more than you would be one btw.

He's not the only one with that opinion.

Face the facts. The majority of the 12" Mac portable community couldn't care less about PC Card slots. We are a majority. Why should we pay for a minority's gadgets? Huh?

No way. Apple listens to the largest fraction and doesn't make them pay for silly gimmicks a minority might want.

And that's the way it should be. Want something else? Fine. Get a PC and leave. Thanks.

Wow, what a nasty, rude, immature, bitter and uncalled for post. I certainly hope for your sake that this does not reflect your real-life personality. Seems to me that you should hold back from replying to a thread if you can't act in a mature manner and offer something to it other than things you've clearly pulled from the sky.

Please show me a link that proves that the 'majority' do not want some sort of flash reader or pc card slot that would enable such devices in their PowerBooks? Does this article that you're going to provide also claim that the 'majority' of people who use iLife, digital cameras and take advantage of the 'Digital Hub' actually prefer carrying around external flash card readers? You've asked me to 'face' these facts, so please show them to me.

You find on-board flash readers that read and transfer digital camera photos or for light backups a gimmick? How utterly ridiculous.

As far as 'and that's the way it should be', well - seems to me that anything Apple does will be the 'way it should be' to common Mac Zealots like you who painfully and blindly make excuses to avoid the obvious. If Apple already had this technology in their PowerBooks, you'd think of 101 reasons why it SHOULD be there and how ridiculous that some PC notebooks don't have it.

Speaking of delusions, why on earth are the two of you going on about Apple charging for a feature like this? Stop putting a different spin on things simply because YOU have no use for it. Apple charging a premium on a built in flash reader (or however they implement it) would be like Audi charging for the glove-box.

By the way, I *do* own both PCs and Macs - many of them. I am a user of both platforms and enjoy them both. If you can't let people discuss hardware from 'the other side' without throwing a tantrum, then maybe you should be more concerned with your maturity level and your temper than Apple's next notebook release. Personally, I thought Mac users were better than that, but I guess there is no difference after all. Therefore, type away and think what you wish, just remember that your opinions are not fact and are not any better than mine. I for one don't go back and fourth in thread marathons as there is no need arguing with brick walls!

Sorry Robster1958, I didn't think this thread would get out of hand, but this is usually what happens when a something cool happens on the PC side. However I hope you found some of the things I posted about other Mini Notebooks out there useful and again, have fun with that new toy!

tie · Sep 7, 2003, 04:58 PM

I could occasionally use a built-in flash reader, but I'm sure many people never would use it. Still, they probably only cost Sony maybe $10, so no big deal. It can't weigh too much, either.

That looks like a nice computer. Mostly full-featured at 3.1 pounds. How are the graphics? GeForce 4 Go (32MB DDR) on Apple 12" versus "Intel� 855GM Chipset Integrated Graphics 64MB (shared)" on the Sony.

Robster1958 · Sep 7, 2003, 07:53 PM

i knew it! 10 posts later and its PC vs. mac flames!!!

i'm with StiZeven: its not an either/or world. many of us use both pc's and macs. normally the pc's use is forced on us by work IT depts., but we have no choice.

also..Sti: i think the Wall St.Journal reviewed both Futitsu and Sony in the same column a few weeks ago. Think they liked both.

and also...Sony does totally rip you off for extras ($300 battery and $500 for 512MB ram chip!) I bought and extra 2100 SoDIMM for $125.

Crazed: YES...this screen IS much better. I also had an SR series a while back. Give it a look--much improved.

FYI, the width of my new sony screen is about 1/2" narrower than my iBook, at just over 9". The height is almost 2" less. On movies this means i get about the same size picture. For websites, i need to scroll a little more, but i can make up for some of it by using smaller font due to the better graphics.

The "shared" memory system is very good..as all of us apple lovers know, controlling the entire machine can result in performance enhancements....and Intel i believe has done a great job with the Centrino chipset and on-motherboard graphics with respect to battery life and video performance.

Also: The CPU ("M") has a clock speed of "only" 900 mhz, but of course we also know that system performance relies on much more than that figure.

sniffer · Sep 7, 2003, 07:55 PM

Yep, Sony makes some good products. Did I just get tempted? -No.

Although I wouldn't mind upgrade my PC desktop machine just to run HL2 if I had the money. It looks very good. But I don't play games that often, so..

Not sure what this thread is doing in the iBook forum BTW.

Robster1958 · Sep 7, 2003, 08:06 PM

Didn't mean to get off topic, but...well actually these comments are now ON topic!

Count me in as someone needing/wanting a PCMCIA slot(s). I happen to like sony's built in memory stick since i use that format in my Clie and camera. I also know that from time to time (or in the future) i need the ability to read other flash memory formats. Of course i can bring along a (USB) reader but imo, the 4in1 card readers that slip into the PCMCIA slot are the best. Not to mention all the other possible times when you might need a PC card - pluggable external device.

Sony seems to have given me that slot with no added bulk...in addition to two USB2 ports (yes Steve Jobs..the world has moved to usb2) in addition to firewire (ok...not powered).

And while we are at it (wrongly assuming apple listens closely to its users), the sony has two other modern conveniences: 2-button mouse and a forward delete key....wow..how to they do that? Is there any iBook user out there that wouldn't rather right click like the rest of the world?

sniffer · Sep 7, 2003, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Robster1958:
Didn't mean to get off topic, but...well actually these comments are now ON topic!

Count me in as someone needing/wanting a PCMCIA slot(s). I happen to like sony's built in memory stick since i use that format in my Clie and camera. I also know that from time to time (or in the future) i need the ability to read other flash memory formats. Of course i can bring along a (USB) reader but imo, the 4in1 card readers that slip into the PCMCIA slot are the best. Not to mention all the other possible times when you might need a PC card - pluggable external device.

Sony seems to have given me that slot with no added bulk...in addition to two USB2 ports (yes Steve Jobs..the world has moved to usb2) in addition to firewire (ok...not powered).

And while we are at it (wrongly assuming apple listens closely to its users), the sony has two other modern conveniences: 2-button mouse and a forward delete key....wow..how to they do that? Is there any iBook user out there that wouldn't rather right click like the rest of the world?

If you hold down the fn key + backward delete you get forward delete. The Key Caps application found in the utilities folder shows all combinations except those that need the "fn" key.
The one button is basically a Apple thing that so far doesn't seem to vanish. Apple tries to design the OS so the need for an extra button is a low as possible. It makes pretty well sense from a user friendliness perspective.
About the other things you mention like PCMCIA slot and memory stick reader, it sounds like the Sony fits very good for you. Use the tool you need to get the job done, that's all I have to say. The iBook will never get a PCMCIA slot, and probably not a card reader either since _most_ people never have those needs you are asking for.

Robster1958 · Sep 7, 2003, 09:57 PM

Not sure what this thread is doing in the iBook forum BTW.
==============================

because as you see from my signature, i own/use an iBook and thought that people would be interested in other machines out there, especially one that stresses graphics, video apps.

as for most mac users not needing to read/write flash memory....i doubt that.

and yes....fn+back delete = forward delete. fn + mouse button = right click. so what?

think about how insular apple is that they would not introduce a new line of AlBooks with a two-button trackpad. it is a symptom of something...not sure what. but it similar to how they treat their owners (i.e. public shareholders)... they do whatever they want.

Steve got something like $125 million in stock for out of the money options in an exchange that provides less incentives to get the stock up. Buy hey, he has two companies to grab from...Pixar too.

sniffer · Sep 7, 2003, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Robster1958:
because as you see from my signature, i own/use an iBook and thought that people would be interested in other machines out there, especially one that stresses graphics, video apps.

We have seen your nice Sony, point is taken. I don't see what there is to argue about.
Use what ever suits you the best.

Graymalkin · Sep 7, 2003, 10:43 PM

I really hate being called a zealot when I'm being a realist. I think the sales of the iBooks and 12" Powerbooks show that PC Cards are not a requirement for a pretty signifigant percentage of Apple's laptop customers. There's not a lot of periphrials that you need to stick onto a 12" Powerbook. One of the few PC Cards that would be of much use would be a TV tuner/video input card. Even with that it'd make more sense to get a Firewire or USB version so you could also use it in your desktop system.

Adding a CF reader would also be pretty useless. Few cameras lack the ability to transfer pictures via USB or even Firewire. USB based readers allow you to use them on desktops as easily as your laptop. It isn't nearly as svelte as a built-in option but it is much more flexible. It also doesn't make sense to waste the space and power on a card reader that is going to be used a tiny fraction of the laptop's lifetime by a tiny fraction of its users.

Simon · 06:56 AM

Originally posted by StiZeven:
Wow, what a nasty, rude, immature, bitter and uncalled for post. I certainly hope for your sake that this does not reflect your real-life personality. Seems to me that you should hold back from replying to a thread if you can't act in a mature manner and offer something to it other than things you've clearly pulled from the sky.

LOL. Hypocrisy. Self-righteousness to no end.

Looky here, I'll show what started the deep fall of this thread:

Originally posted by StiZeven:
Oh god, a typical reply from a typical Mac Zealot.

Newbies should first get to know people and topics before they use big words. It's that way everywhere. You open the flap too far and you get it. It's really quite simple.

Grayamlkin has posted quite a lot of reasonable stuff here and I'd say you are definitely NOT in the position to call him zealot.

That's what the shutup was for.

I'll stand by it. Now even more than before.

Please show me a link that proves that the 'majority' do not want some sort of flash reader or pc card slot that would enable such devices in their PowerBooks?

Dude, it has been discussed several times on this board: Should the 12" PowerBook have PCMCIA slots? Should the iBooks have PCMCIA slots? Some people would like it. But it was never a majority. Probably exactly the reason Apple chose to drop it. You would know about these discussions and have a clue if you would have tried to follow this board a bit better. Instead you chose to give people crap - people that have contributed by far more to this board than you ever have. That puts you in a really bad position...

Anyway, you want gimmicks, you pay for them.

The iBoooks should be cheap and the 12" Powerbook should be tiny. Both stuff that's not in favor of adding PCMCIA. No matter what the PC world is doing, that was Apple's decision.

I'm glad about it. You may not be. But, put your money where your mouth is. If you need PCMCIA than get a 15" or 17" or a PC. I don't really care.

StiZeven · Sep 8, 2003, 10:26 AM

Oh, well I didn't know that the MacNN forums represent the 20+ million Mac users out there. I also didn't know that the number of posts below your username indicate knowledge of computers and what *some* people may or may not want or like in terms of new features.

PCMCIA slots were not the main issue here or even the premise of my post. It was about the possibility of a flash reader of some kind (a la Vaio) integrated into the next PowerBook. More importantly, it was about the ability to put more options, features, power and battery life into the next Apple Mini PowerBook since other companies have successfully did it in smaller chassis (with or without a PC Card slot or flash reader) or to make the current one smaller (and rumors suggest that the next 12" PowerBook will be a bit smaller).

And, even if it did matter, I certainly don't consider myself a newbie and I am INDEED in the position to comment on anything ANY poster here states regardless of how many posts I've got behind me. It's a bit ridiculous to think otherwise and to go on about 'rank' and so on. However that kind of argument parallels the 'well I don't need it or want it so it shouldn't be an option' argument - so I am really not surprised.

As far as I am concerned, the 'fall' of this thread was the ridiculous 'well I don't need it, so it shouldn't have it, so go buy a virus infested PC' post. That alone warranted the zealot tag. But, we of course all see things differently, especially when we are a bit too biased if not jaded. After all, where would Apple be without their cult like following and or apologists?

However, at this point, I'll have to just agree to disagree.

MSME · Sep 8, 2003, 10:33 AM

I'd be more interested if they made one without the integrated camera -- that's a feature that I wouldn't use much if at all. I played with one in Cirucit City, and I thougt it seemed to be really well made, and the screen was indeed wonderful.

Robster1958: How do you think it performs in comparison to the 900 mhz iBooks that are currently out?

Lapin · Sep 8, 2003, 11:55 AM

Just my 2cents.

I have been using a vaio SR (1.3 kg, 10 inch screen, predecessor of the TR1) for two years, and eying macs for years... My general comments are :
- this is a perfect DVD player except battery life too short
- external CDRW/DVD+cable really is a hassle
- PC card slot is a must-have ; i wouldn't want to carry around and risk losing a card reader or at least an extra cable for downloading my digi pictures
- the sony screen has a definite blueish cast, that the ibook does not have ; but the TR1 screen is just amazing

So... if next gen ibook or pwbook has :
- X-brite or TiBook quality screen
- cinema ratio screen (someting intermediate between TR1 and TiBook size?)
- battery able to deliver 2.5 hours of DVD over 2-3 years of lifetime
- PC card reader (come on, apple!)
Then i may switch back to mac.

Just my 2cents as i said.

Mallrat · Sep 8, 2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Robster1958:
Not sure that I will get rid of my iBook (unless for the rev.B 12" PB,if it ever comes out), but i just got a windows laptop for work-related use and have been very impressed.

I just bought the newest tiny Sony laptop (PCG-TR1). It is hands down the best portable DVD player I have had....better than an early Pany L50, better than Tosh2000, better than my Apple iBook.

The widescreen (10.5" diag.) resolution is 1280 x 768...and it is coated with some new process that gives it...dare i say...depth!....movies look outrageously good. Black level is stunning; viewing angle is forgiving, software controls robust. Sound of course is modest, but headphones give some simulated surround.

Oh...and this 3.1 pound machine also is a Centrino-class machine with built in wi-fi, 512 MB ram, 30 GB hard drive, CD-R/DVD, camera built-in. Battery life is excellent at around 3 hrs. When i cant be watching a movie, i have a Windows XP pc with MS Office, games, etc. Firewire port, two USB2 ports, ehternet and phone jacks, PCMCIA card slot, memory stick slot.

Ok...ok...it costs $2099. But the truth is, its the first laptop that i carry all the time.

Very interesting post. I'm interested in buying a new notebook, and for the first time in the past 5 years, I actually SERIOUSLY, looked at NON-APPLE stuff.

I mean let's face it, the only thing that makes apple bad, is the lack of choices. I mean they make the best machines, great computers, but when you have 1000 choices as opposed to 5 notebook choices for apple, sometimes even apple loyalist, like me, get annoyed.

I'm looking for a small notebook, that won't hurt my eyes, but that I can bring to barnes and noble, or the park, so I can write.

Something iwth a nice keyboard, that is easy to type on....

I mean I really dont' want to buy a PC for many reasons.. the reason i went to apple in the first place is because I feel in love with their notebook, the 1400 c, and it's keyboard... and I can't imagine giving up all the things I now love about Apple...

I just wish they would come out with a mini-notebook... gives us like 10 choices....

I don't think we need a 17 inch (althought nice to have an option).

I want a nice 10.4 screen, 12, 13, 14, 15, and since we have it now 17...

One designed to be used as a glorified typewriter/e-mailier... another designed for editing.... I would love to see that type of focus...

I'm rambling right now, but point is, as a consumer, I just wish we could have best of both worlds.

I really would love to see Sony do something cool. Apple do somethng cool. Like says, Sony makes an apple version of their notebooks.

I way to increase our choices wiht the other notebooks, but to still use the apple interface that I have grown to love.

Now that would be great... wouldn't it?

I mean that would make sense too.

I mean the thing apple does better than anyone, is actually they make great software... their hardware is the best too, but I feel the software is where they are always ahead of the pack. The iPod, final cut pro, iDVd, IMovie, i Phote... they are so much better than their competiors.. it's funny.

Apple is makign the iPod for windows and ITunes... I hope we find a way to make all computer runs everything... thus making it so apple won't go under and the consumer wins.

And maybe no more PC vs Apple wars.

I love Apple, but it's okay to see the great things that some PC makers are doing, such as Sony.

StiZeven · Sep 8, 2003, 05:33 PM

Mallrat, I agree about choices. If Apple had a true BTO model set up (sort of like Dell's) where you can start with (almost) barebones and take it all the way to the top, I'd be a happy (well, happier) camper.

There are some very cool PC mini notebooks out there, but from what I've read from your post, and the tasks that you need to do on your next portable, it seems to me that the 12" PowerBook might be the best choice for you. While bigger than some mini PC notebooks with built-in optical drives, the 12" PowerBook is still very small and portable. If typing is what you do the most, there is no keyboard nicer, smoother or just down-right as awesome as the new 'AL' Apple PowerBook keyboards. Of course, with the PowerBook you be able to continue to use Mac OS X and Apple's other software titles which you mentioned that you preferred. As far as the rumored upcoming iTunes for Windows - well, if it's anything like QuickTime for Windows, you'll probably want to stay away from it! I'd wait until after the Paris show to see if Apple has anymore surprises up their sleeve.

Graymalkin · Sep 8, 2003, 09:26 PM

Apple already tried the entirely BTO approach to laptops with the Series I Wallstreet Powerbooks. Having a multitude of BTO combinations is really bad for any company's bottom line. The more units that have to pass through human hands the more money it costs you to ship that unit. The more variety in your product lines the less advantage you get from mass producing that product.

Dell has a multitude of BTO options because that is the nature of their business model. They buy a bunch of barebones systems from an ODM. No matter if the order for a laptop is the standard configuration or a customized one, they assemble all of their systems from the babebones ones. They can get away with that because they don't sell retail systems. They don't have to maintain any retail stock configurations unlike Sony, HP, and Apple. Maitaning a retail and BTO production line requires a bit of overhead. Why do you think Apple charges such premiums for RAM and hard drive BTO options? They do so to maintain the margin on the system that had to pass through an extra set of hands. HP, Sony, and Gateway do the same thing. To Apple et al the cost of BTO is added to the retail lines. Dell's only line is BTO which means no added cost for them.

You want to sit back and call people zealots because they don't agree with your opinions. For the most part your opinions are based on a severe lack of understanding of business and the basic pricipals of money making. You crave bells and whistles in systems marketed to people without a use for those bells and whistles. I can tell you bells and whistles are not wanted by a majority of Apple laptop buyers because they are buying iBooks and 12" Powerbooks. Those people obviously don't want or need PC Card slots or CF readers or blinkenlights because they didn't buy a PC or a 15" or 17" Powerbook.

Robster1958 · Sep 8, 2003, 09:51 PM

back from work....here goes:

To respond to MSME, the comparison i have is the 700 mhz iBook (revB) and i would make the following comparisons in what i use:

wi-fi reception/web page loading - very slight edge to the Sony in Toast.net tests. as an aside, since i installed my linksys booster, my wireless lan has been outstanding.

office2000 (Sony) vs. Office X - good edge to Sony. for some reason, i always get the beachball with Office X

also...had yet to crash the Windows XP. dirty little secret: have crashed OS X many times.

overall speed about equal, although the sony takes a bit longer to launch and close applications.

Fit and finish: edge to my iBook...previous generation though. i don't love the new finish..cheapens it, imo. A little too plasticky for the sony, but not bad.

keyboard: edge to iBook mainly due to key size. both very quiet typing, which i prefer. of course the sony does have forward delete and 2 mouse buttons...but we wont go there again.

Screen: despite the smaller real estate (shorter only, about same width)..large edge to Sony. you just gotta see this screen to believe. nothing like the old SR series...looks like glass. of course everyone's eyes are different, but at small size, type is so readable.

also MSME...you'd be surprised at how handy the built in camera is. i too thought it was a gimmick, but it speeds up an eBay insertion by a lot...not to mention spy photos at meetings!

Lapin--battery life is vastly improved over SR..i know what you mean about that model. The TR1 is absolutely a full movie plus machine.

The truth is that a year or so ago, nothing could touch the form factor, coolness, etc of the iBook. But the PC world has improved with XP and intel's integrated chipsets.

StiZeven · Sep 8, 2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Graymalkin:
You want to sit back and call people zealots because they don't agree with your opinions.

No, I called people Zealots because of their comments that warrant it. It was a mere observation. It's not a bad word, don't know why people get so bent over it. How ironic that you'd touch on the reaction to people not agreeing with opinion when *you're* the one making all these assumptions and giving extreme examples because I don't agree with YOUR opinions! Hysterical.

For the most part your opinions are based on a severe lack of understanding of business and the basic pricipals of money making.

Don't be so sure of yourself. It seems to me that it's your perception that is severely lacking (for the most part). Silly assumptions aside, I am actually well aware of the issues involved in a complete BTO model and I know why Apple doesn't or can't have one, and of course they can't do what Dell does. It was just a ponder. Would I would like is more options and that is something that they can do. Personally, I am more concerned with what Apple offers to the consumer than their bottom lines. I have a feeling Apple's profit margins are much bigger than they'd like us to think.

You crave bells and whistles in systems marketed to people without a use for those bells and whistles. I can tell you bells and whistles are not wanted by a majority of Apple laptop buyers because they are buying iBooks and 12" Powerbooks. Those people obviously don't want or need PC Card slots or CF readers or blinkenlights because they didn't buy a PC or a 15" or 17" Powerbook.

Bells, whistles, blinking lights? Crave? Huh? No, but thanks for spinning the discussion in a completely different direction (as I outlined in several posts above). Don't know where that came from, but I've not asked for anything like that. In fact, I have faith that Apple could incorporate a very useful feature such as a flash reader in a very tasteful, minimalist and fashionable way. I guess you don't agree that they can? Or was that just another extreme exaggeration to try and make it sound like something it's not?

Also, people tend to by smaller notebooks because they are smaller. ligher and more portable, not because they are more 'simple'. When something is so small you'd have it with you on the road more often which is an even better reason to have more built in features.

Please, have an opinion and by all means voice it, but don't try and sell it as fact.

This has been beaten to death - let it go (I certainly am). I am far more interested in Robster1958's new VAIO TR1.

By the way Robster, any chance on taking some pics and posting them?

Robster1958 · Sep 8, 2003, 10:59 PM

the one thing the built-in camera can't do is take a picture of itself!!!

will try to post some pix. i have no excuse since i can just plug in my memory stick

oh...one thing i didn't respond to regarding why the camera looked differnet in the two links. its because it is mirrored and i guess the reflection caused it.

bottom line: this machine is fun...like the iBook. i've been through several laptops in the past few months including a 15" Ti PB and an IBM Thinkpad T40P. And portability is just so important to me, as long as i can have good functionality and battery life. Oh..and the screen...the screen...you gotta see it. Bright, crisp..just beautiful.

My wish list for the RevB of the 12" PB now includes this type of screen, preferably 16:9 aspect ratio...maybe 2" wider than the Sony, along with the requisite L3 cache and the 64 meg video card.

legacyb4 · Sep 9, 2003, 01:16 AM

I sometimes do wish the 12" (iBooks or PBs) did have PCMCIA slots for memory card readers; all my friends have digital cameras and it would be nice to be able to download a quick copy of their photos when we are at the circuit without having to fuss with cables for different cameras, etc.

Of course, this is from someone still trying to decide whether to go the iBook or PB route and waiting to see what next week will bring...

Originally posted by Graymalkin:
I certainly didn't need or want a Compect Flash reader in my Powerbook. I really don't like paying for stuff I'm not going to use. A PC Card option would have also been a waste of money and space for me. I needed the PC Card on my Lombard for Firewire and wireless networking. Save for USB2 or Firewire 800 my 12" Powerbook can connect to just about any periphrial I want.

Mallrat · Sep 10, 2003, 12:42 AM

just went to compUSA and played with the Sony.. it was a great machine.. the keyboard keys were a bit smaller than the ibook, but even with the stupid bar to keep you from stealing the notebooks and to prevent you from actually getting a feel to how the notebook would work (apple store gets it right by letting you actually play witht he machines) it was easy to type on.

I really liked it. I really wanted to buy it. But then again, it's not an apple.

But it is still appealing. However, it's just a cool thing that I should even think of buying since I need a new computer and this sony shouldnt' be my main computer because it is too small I think to be the main computer.

I'ts perfect if you use this as your traveling computer.

klinux · Sep 10, 2003, 01:37 AM

Many PC users I know like this and I've heard great reviews all over the web. If I had to give up my iBook, the TR-1 would definitely by a top choice.

Lapin · Sep 10, 2003, 04:00 AM

Just to let you know that Sony Japan has announced the TR2, with :
* 1 Ghz Pentium M
* 40 Go hard drive
* Wifi b/g
* no DVD-RW
* longer battery life, apparently
* same pass� techno typeface on the keyboard

The ugly, 2kg, R505, has been upgraded to :
* 1.5 Pentium M
* 60 Go
* Wifi b/g
* no DVD-RW
* longer battery life
* same pass� techno typeface on the keyboard
Its expansion dock supports DVI displays up to 2500*1200 approx.

And in case you're wondering, there still is no 12inch ou cinema-ratio vaio Z.

Robster1958 · Sep 10, 2003, 11:03 AM

****! i'm already obsolete!!

actually, i saw a guy selling this on eBay...wasn't sure if it was true. however, it looks like 256MB ram standard, so it would be (super) expensive to replace that chip with 512 AND buy another chip to max it out to 1 GB.

the machine uses a "micro-DIMM" ram chip, which is available only through sony so far....at $499 (ouch!).

polendo · Sep 10, 2003, 11:02 PM

Congrats on your new SOny Robster. I find Sony laptops really appealing. I like the 505, specially for what you can get. Nice machines indeed. The fujitu�s are great performers, nevertheless the ones sold in Mexico, don�t have the � or the accents.. and that is a paint in the butt to be typing without those.

regards

Link · Sep 11, 2003, 06:58 AM

I really like sony laptops, and love the idea of an internal cam. That said, if this laptop had an internal DVD-R drive and radeon 8500/gf4mx class graphics, I'd want it!

radarbob · Sep 11, 2003, 07:19 AM

Let me just repeat what Cipher13 said... "but it runs windows." 'nuff said.

Robster1958 · Sep 11, 2003, 09:41 AM

not to start this flaming...but.

all i want to say is that dismissing Win XP out of hand is a mistake. i for one am surprisingly impressed by it.

i have been using my sony now for about a week straight; i have only one use left for my iBook...an important one though...syncing with my iPod and downloading songs from the apple music store.

right now i have maybe 5 apps open, including a real-time stock trading system (whick does not have a mac version, hence my need for a windows laptop)...not a hiccup..and i haven't yet put in the extra 512 MB ram chip.

i cannot stress too strongly how outstanding this screen is. first i thought i had a great dvd player, but now i realize how the resolution actually increases your screen real estate. i have 3 IM boxes open, a trading monitor, and more with perfect readability. of course depends on your eyesight i guess, but the effective information content i can fit on the screen in a usable fashion is at least the same as the iBook.

Sony def. has a winner on its hands...evidenced by the sellout status everywhere. importantly, i think they have found the form factor on which to tweak. as mentioned previously, the TR2 will have faster processor and bigger hard drive. maybe the TR3 will have an even faster processor, bigger hard drive and dvd-r...and even longer battery life.

A big reason i became a switcher to Apple in the first place was the fun, excitemnt and enthusiam i felt with its products. when i pulled out a $3000 thinkpad of its box...it was a yawn; but this little guy...uh oh...its gotten personal already!

klinux · Sep 11, 2003, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by radarbob:
Let me just repeat what Cipher13 said... "but it runs windows." 'nuff said.

Thread-crapping sucks whether or not you are on a PC or Mac or any other forum.

Oh yeah, not in this case but in others, getting a PC does not mean you have to run Windows, which immediately defeats the "but it runs windows" argument.

Simon · Sep 12, 2003, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by klinux:
getting a PC does not mean you have to run Windows...

True, but it means it certainly doesn't run Mac OS. This is a forum about Macs and for people who run Mac OS.

Windows, x86, in certain circumstances also Linux, etc. belong elsewhere or for the matter in other sections like the lounge.

Therefore it's definitely wrong here. Try SonyNN.com, WinNN.com or LinuxNN.com.

radarbob · Sep 12, 2003, 08:59 AM

OK, when Apple ports Mac OS to the Intel chipset I'll buy a viao laptop, promise

All I can say is that I use Windows every day at work because I have to; I use Apple Macintosh because I want to.

My issue is not that there is not good hardware out there; even though Apple designs are *clearly* superior, epitomized by the G5 tower. It is not that Windows is not improving - it had no where else to go! It's not that it does things my Mac cannot - although some PC gamers would disagree.

It's the fundamental nature of the beast. The gestalt. The big picture. The whole enchalada. Macintosh is more fun - both OS and hardware. It's easier to learn, easier to modify, easier to fix. It's less buggy - *always* has been. Every Macintosh I've owned has borne this out.

If you grew up w/ PC's you'll wonder what all the fuss is about. But for a Mac user such as myself, it's like a bird looking down at fish in the water and thinking "poor dumb youknowwhats"; and the fish, totally imersed in it's environment with no other worldly experience, and hence no comprehension of it - looking up at the bird in flight and saying "what the heck is that?".

Mallrat · Sep 12, 2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by radarbob:
OK, when Apple ports Mac OS to the Intel chipset I'll buy a viao laptop, promise

All I can say is that I use Windows every day at work because I have to; I use Apple Macintosh because I want to.

My issue is not that there is not good hardware out there; even though Apple designs are *clearly* superior, epitomized by the G5 tower. It is not that Windows is not improving - it had no where else to go! It's not that it does things my Mac cannot - although some PC gamers would disagree.

It's the fundamental nature of the beast. The gestalt. The big picture. The whole enchalada. Macintosh is more fun - both OS and hardware. It's easier to learn, easier to modify, easier to fix. It's less buggy - *always* has been. Every Macintosh I've owned has borne this out.

If you grew up w/ PC's you'll wonder what all the fuss is about. But for a Mac user such as myself, it's like a bird looking down at fish in the water and thinking "poor dumb youknowwhats"; and the fish, totally imersed in it's environment with no other worldly experience, and hence no comprehension of it - looking up at the bird in flight and saying "what the heck is that?".

I agree. For a brief 2 day period I was actually looking at PC's.. then I remembered why I left them.... but just goes to show you how apple not updating enough, can lose customers....

Because even though what they offer now is awesome, people, consumers like me, want new and more alll the time.

So apple give us more and new, tuesday would be nice.

Robster1958 · Sep 12, 2003, 01:16 PM

i agree about the whole "gestalt" but purely objectively i have had less problems with Win XP than with Jaguar. I was frankly surprised by the number of full and partial crashes with OS X....kernal panics or whatever.

if i click too fast i often get the beachball. and on iTunes, i have gotten the full screen with all the languages to shut off!
booting up takes forever too for OS X.

Task manager controls program crashes very well, imo.

goMac · Sep 12, 2003, 11:03 PM

I wouldn't buy that simply because it ran Windows. Windows is the worst mobile operating system ever. I have my PC laptop with Windows XP Pro, and it likes to crash when I open it up (system process climbs to %99 cpu). Thats very hard to deal with when you pull the laptop out and it crashes, forcing you to hard restart. Windows XP also acts really funny on my 802.11 networks (like dropping, and creating its own for no apparent reason).

Windows XP is a pain. Mac OS X hardly ever crashes on my powerbook. The only kernal panic I've ever had has been in Panther (fixed with a new seed). I had to use my PC laptop for a week while my Mac was in repair, and the most stable thing on it was running Mac OS 8 under an emulator (using CyberDog to browse the web

). I was glad when I got my Powerbook yet, and I have been convinced never to buy a PC laptop.

My friend told me it was time to reinstall windows. Having to install windows again after 2 weeks is absurd.