[alfric]

The new G4 ibooks are out - what's your take? ibook or powerbook G4 for 12" mobile computing?

http://www.apple.com/ibook/

Lets's have a discussion on the pros and cons, so that buyers can make up their mind on this one... (I almost ordered the PB12, now I'm not so sure - gonna check out the iB12 before I decide)...

SPECS are:

12" $1,099.00

800MHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache @ 800MHz
12-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
256MB DDR266 SDRAM
30GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200
32MB DDR video memory

plus loads more software than the PB12...
should be more durable, too...

What's the ATI 9200 like compared to the 12" powerbook?

[snowdropper]

im in the same boat... more choices argh!

does the radeon 9200 support external monitor for extended desktop, or just mirrored display...

looks like an affordable G4 for broke students like me

[The Placid Casual]

In the UK, it is £790 v £1200...

It is a 'no brainer' for the iBook to me unless you need DVI out.

I really hope Apple know what they are doing on this one.

Peace,

Marc

P.S. I can see the 14" taking sales from the 15" PB too!

[Skaar]

I was checking the specs on the new iBooks and it looks like the G4 used in them does not have Altivec (Velocity Engine).

Also I believe they only support video mirroring.

[Rain]

A G5 PB is SO on the way. There's no way the current PBs can compete with the new iBs. The iB is virtually identical to the PBs sans the high price!

If I had to make a choice, I would get the iBook.

[alfric]

I thought the definition of G4 was G3+Altivec...
It's speculated that the G4 is the old PB G4 used in the revA 12/17 as well as the TiBook...

Originally posted by Skaar:
I was checking the specs on the new iBooks and it looks like the G4 used in them does not have Altivec (Velocity Engine).

Also I believe they only support video mirroring.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by Skaar:
I was checking the specs on the new iBooks and it looks like the G4 used in them does not have Altivec (Velocity Engine).

Also I believe they only support video mirroring.

Every G4 has Altivec... It is what sets a G4 apart from a G3. It is intrinsic to the G4 chip and cannot just be removed.

I suspect that now the G5 has arrived in such fine style, there is no need to play on the 'velocity engine' thing any more...

Also, Altivec is a Motorola trademark, and as they are on the way out, and the name can't be used on any of the IBM made chips, Apple is probably scaling the use of the name down.

Peace,

Marc

[legacyb4]

Not necessarily. If you do a quick side by side, you get:

- no Altivec (speculation by other readers)
- 12" model max at 800 mhz)
- half the L2 cache (just when it was clear that upping the L2 cache to 512k improved 12" PB performance
- "faster" system bus than original iBook) but memory still slower than new 12" PB
- not sure about graphic card performance
- optional Bluetooth
- no Superdrive (at all)
- no DVI output

Having spent 2.5 weeks with my PB 12" rev.B, I don't think I would trade "down" despite the price as this is now my primary machine for the next few months.. Having said that, it sounds like the new iBook is a great secondary machine if you already have a great desktop setup...

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
It is a 'no brainer' for the iBook to me unless you need DVI out.

[RealMadrid]

I just ordered a PB 12' and will happily stay with that.

Differences:

+ 200 MHz.
+ DVI-out
+ Monitor spanning (mirroring in iBook)
- weight
- size
+ 256 KB level 2 cache
+ Bluetooth

and possibly more.

[alfric]

- Bluetooth is a (50$) optional extra on the iB12"
- Monitor spanning: can this be hacked? Does the Radeon support this (if hacked)?

Originally posted by RealMadrid:
I just ordered a PB 12' and will happily stay with that.

Differences:

+ 200 MHz.
+ DVI-out
+ Monitor spanning (mirroring in iBook)
- weight
- size
+ 256 KB level 2 cache
+ Bluetooth

and possibly more.

[The Jackalope]

I also have to say that I wouldn't give up my 12" PB's Keyboard Of Sex™ for the mushy plastic ibook's kb for anything. It really does matter a lot to me.

I have to say Apple did a great job with the new iBooks though! Good to see the G3 is officially dead now, it was really getting too long in the tooth to run X at all.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by legacyb4:
Not necessarily. If you do a quick side by side, you get:

- no Altivec (speculation by other readers)

Yes you do.

Originally posted by legacyb4:
- 12" model max at 800 mhz)

Um, not really an issue. The machine is over £500 cheaper.

- half the L2 cache (just when it was clear that upping the L2 cache to 512k improved 12" PB performance

Cache can make a big difference, but it really doesn't make that much of a difference, if any, in this setup.

- "faster" system bus than original iBook) but memory still slower than new 12" PB

The PB is indeed slightly faster, but somewhat academic as it isn't really DDR anyway...

- not sure about graphic card performance

I suspect that the newer card will perform better...

- optional Bluetooth

You Can have bluetooth built in, cool.. wheres the issue?

- no Superdrive (at all)

Who really uses one anyway...?

- no DVI output

Granted, an issue... if you need DVI

Having spent 2.5 weeks with my PB 12" rev.B, I don't think I would trade "down" despite the price as this is now my primary machine for the next few months.. Having said that, it sounds like the new iBook is a great secondary machine if you already have a great desktop setup...

Your Rev B is a very, very cool machine.

But, for £500 cheaper, the new iBook sounds like a great machine full stop, let alone a secondary machine!

Peace,

Marc

[rcarlosnyc]

Originally posted by alfric:
I thought the definition of G4 was G3+Altivec...
It's speculated that the G4 is the old PB G4 used in the revA 12/17 as well as the TiBook...

I agree. For the iBooks to go G4, G5 PowerBooks are coming sooner than we think.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by rcarlosnyc:
I agree. For the iBooks to go G4, G5 PowerBooks are coming sooner than we think.

Or Panther is rubbish on a G3...

I doubt we will see G5 Powerbooks any time soon.

[fisherKing]

just figuring my ideal config on the apple store (ie max ram in the ibook, 768 in the 12"pb...second ac, second batt, ae...)

there's an $825. difference.

hmmm...i WOULD like that superdrive, and dual monitors would be nice,

but... could get the ibook AND a killer 20" for cost of the 12" alone...

[alfric]

See this thread for talk that the iBook uses an IBM 750 processor with a velocity engine

- one interesting argument: the 6-hr battery time on the iB12
- if the IBM came to the PB12", would it improve battery time?
- or are we talking about batery time under Panther (enhanced)?

http://forums.maccentral.com/wwwthre...book/index.php

[snowdropper]

--I was checking the specs on the new iBooks and it looks like the used in them does not have Altivec (Velocity Engine).

also says on the apple site that the G4 ibook has a "new architecture"

meaning what exactly?

[alfric]

Superdrive?

You can get an EXTERNAL firewire DVD burner for the ibook (incl. DVD-RW...!!!!) for under 300$.... who needs DVD burning on the road, anyway???!!! This way you can even copy DVDs from your Combo to your burner... and still cheaper than the powerbook

Originally posted by fisherKing:
just figuring my ideal config on the apple store (ie max ram in the ibook, 768 in the 12"pb...second ac, second batt, ae...)

there's an $825. difference.

hmmm...i WOULD like that superdrive, and dual monitors would be nice,

but... could get the ibook AND a killer 20" for cost of the 12" alone...

[fisherKing]

Originally posted by alfric:
Superdrive?

You can get an EXTERNAL firewire DVD burner for the ibook (incl. DVD-RW...!!!!) for under 300$.... who needs DVD burning on the road, anyway???!!! This way you can even copy DVDs from your Combo to your burner... and still cheaper than the powerbook

$825. difference=
$300 for a dvd burner, $500 for an external monitor...and $25 for a bottle of (somewhat) decent champagne (sorta an "iBook" champagne)

not bad!

[legacyb4]

Looks like I jumped on the memory; Apple Store says that memory is DDR266 SDRAM so gains might be negated.

My SuperDrive? Been busy since I bought it backing up my MP3 collection, software installers from multiple CDs, and most importantly, my digital photos which seem to double in size every year from the previous year.

Having said that, I made a decision that the extra price for the PB was less of an issue but I can definitely see where the new price/performance of the iBooks would be very attractive for students, for example.

Cheers and enjoy the new iBooks!

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
The PB is indeed slightly faster, but somewhat academic as it isn't really DDR anyway...

Superdrive. Who really uses one anyway...?

Marc [/B]

[Wattsy]

Hmm. I've got a 12" PB coming today so the news of the G4 iBook is a bit annoying for me. I currently need DVI and monitor spanning so the iBook isn't an alternative option for me. However, the new G4 iBook has taken a chunk out of the value of the 700mhz combo iBook I'm now selling and we may also see a price drop on the 12" PB in the next few days (the price gap between 12" iBook and PB seems too large to sustain).

Oh, one (minor) difference others don't seem to have commented upon - iBook has 128MB ram soldered in v. 256MB in PB. Listed spec also shows max RAM of 640MB with iBook (are there no 1GB chips available for new iBook?).

[filmmaker2002]

Originally posted by alfric:
Superdrive?

You can get an EXTERNAL firewire DVD burner for the ibook (incl. DVD-RW...!!!!) for under 300$.... who needs DVD burning on the road, anyway???!!! This way you can even copy DVDs from your Combo to your burner... and still cheaper than the powerbook

There are quite of few of use who enjoy portbility but need to back up massive photoshop and video files. There are also those of us who do video editing on the road (even on a 12" PB) and need to burn DVDs for clients at a moment's notice...and would prefer not to lug around another drive.

[AssassyN]

Wow...this was surprising!

The new G4 iBook seems like a stellar deal, except you HAVE to get the 14" model to get any kind of real speed, which is lame b/c both models have the same resolution.

I agree, this will hurt 12" PB sales bigtime...I'm extremely, extremely, glad that I traded my 12" PB out last week for a killer TiBook package w/ tons of extras...phew! Cut that close!

[Marook]

Originally posted by RealMadrid:
I just ordered a PB 12' and will happily stay with that.

Differences:

+ 200 MHz.
+ DVI-out
+ Monitor spanning (mirroring in iBook)
- weight
- size
+ 256 KB level 2 cache
+ Bluetooth

and possibly more.

Like:
+ Widescreen, (15/17" only)
+ Gigabit Ethernet,
+ SuperDrive,
+ Backlit keys, (15/17" only)
+ FW 800,
+ Sound IN,
+ PC-Card Slot, (15/17" only?)

The 14" iBook is STILL running 1024x768, why don't they just ship a 12" + a pair of glasses?

[alfric]

Actally we're only comparing the 12" here - I agree the 14 vs 15/17 comparison isn't equal... but on the 12" you get

- the same screen (incl. spanning if you apply an ibook hack)
- the same 10/100 Ethernet (!!!! on the PB12)
- you can buy an external DVD burner with the savings as the superdrive can't do DVD-RW!!!!!! (crippled by Apple)
- no backlit keys on either (PB keyboard should be better to use though - however, power users might want a bluetooth KB for desk use anyway...)
- bluetooth is an option on the ibook, same for APE!!!
- NO FIREWIRE 800 on PB12 or ibook 12
- NO PC-card on PB12 or iB12 (too small anyway, no need)

How about that, Marook? looks like only sound-in is left

BTW, what's the take on the GeForce vs the ATI Radeon? Same 32MB... speed difference=?

Originally posted by Marook:
Like:
+ Widescreen, (15/17" only)
+ Gigabit Ethernet,
+ SuperDrive,
+ Backlit keys, (15/17" only)
+ FW 800,
+ Sound IN,
+ PC-Card Slot, (15/17" only?)

The 14" iBook is STILL running 1024x768, why don't they just ship a 12" + a pair of glasses?

[naknek]

I'm using a PB12 as my main machine (web design and desktop publishing.) I find the 12" iBook to be an awesome deal, but insufficient for two reasons:

1) 640MB ram ceiling
2) 1024x768 max resolution

It's painful to pay $500 just to overcome these limitations (particulary when they appear to be artificially imposed by Apple), but when you need them, you need them. Especially the resolution -- what's the point of even having an external display if you're stuck at 1024x768? Maybe a hack will save the day...

Of course, the bigger HD, monitor spanning, double L2 cache, and 200 MHz help soften the blow as well. But the two reasons I listed are the only things that would really hold me back from picking the iBook over the PB.

[snowdropper]

is that resolution only for the laptop screen though?

if you were to mirror, could you choose a higher resolution for the mirrored display?

also, the ati website says the 9200 mobility supports multiple monitors, so is it just apple that has restricted this?

guess we will have to wait till someone buys one...

[djjava]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Wow...this was surprising!

The new G4 iBook seems like a stellar deal, except you HAVE to get the 14" model to get any kind of real speed, which is lame b/c both models have the same resolution.

I agree, this will hurt 12" PB sales bigtime...I'm extremely, extremely, glad that I traded my 12" PB out last week for a killer TiBook package w/ tons of extras...phew! Cut that close!

how much longer till you trade that TiBook in for something else?

[waxcrash]

If I was in the market for an Apple 12" laptop, I'd take the new 12" iBook over the 12" PowerBook.

12" PowerBook is $1600 and the 12" iBook is $1100. A $500 difference gets you:

Bluetooth
200 MHz faster processor
256 K larger L2 cache
DVI out w/ monitor spanning
10GB larger harddrive

Not worth $500 to me. Plus I like the rugged iBook case better than the cheap looking aluminum of the PowerBook. Is it me or do the AlBooks look like cheap gray plastic?

[naknek]

Originally posted by snowdropper:
is that resolution only for the laptop screen though?

if you were to mirror, could you choose a higher resolution for the mirrored display?

also, the ati website says the 9200 mobility supports multiple monitors, so is it just apple that has restricted this?

guess we will have to wait till someone buys one...

Unfortunately, unless Apple has changed their policy since the previous iBooks, 1024x768 is the max you can get, mirroring or not, regardless of how large your external monitor is. (That's what the Apple spec page says as well.)

As you note, the video card can easily handle more, so it's just a restriction created by Apple. There was a widely-used "hack" to re-enable the higher resolution and monitor spanning on the previous iBooks, so with a little luck, something like that will work on the G4 iBooks too, unless Apple has found a way to disable it with the new machines.

[Drakino]

as the superdrive can't do DVD-RW!!!!!! (crippled by Apple)

I've burned and erased my collection of a few DVD-RW disks in my AlBook 15 inch a few times now. They only burn at 1x, but this worked out of the box with no hacks.

[alfric]

Anyone know what the situation is with the PB12 superdrive (rev B)? does it write DVD-RW out of the box? i consider the rewritable feature a crucial factor in deciding whether to go for a superdrive or not - as you can get a fast and mobile rewritable harddrive for less than the superdrive price

Originally posted by Drakino:
I've burned and erased my collection of a few DVD-RW disks in my AlBook 15 inch a few times now. They only burn at 1x, but this worked out of the box with no hacks.

[nobitacu]

I would say go for the iBooks, unless you need the DVI input. If not, iBooks is the way I would go if I was looking for a laptop just for normal uses. You'll save yourself like $500 too in the process.

Ming

[StevenWRX]

I see the PB as a Lexus ES300 and the new ibook as a Toyota camry,,,, Both are basically the same, but their are differences...

[HotSoup]

Which one do you think is better graphics wise? 12" PB's Graphix card vs. 14" iB Graphix card?

Thanks

[Yoziah!]

I just bought my first Mac since my IIsi from college... a 12" PB. Although I could be bummed that I would have saved some bucks by cutting a few corners and getting the new iBook, I am quite pleased with my purchase. My new PB is awesome! The build is great! The attention to details is superb! And, I love the aluminum case! To me, the PB is still justifiable over an iBook based on the little extras. In many ways, these extras are what drove me to get a Mac over a PC. If you want the best computer you can get in the smallest package possible, I totally recommend the 12" PowerBook

[crouchingtiger]

now that the new G4 iBook uses DDR SO-DIMMs, can they use the 1GB chips that are selling for about $500 now for the Powerbook 12"?

In other words, is the limit _actually_ 1152 MB and not 640 MB on the new iBooks?

[icruise]

Originally posted by alfric:
Superdrive?

You can get an EXTERNAL firewire DVD burner for the ibook (incl. DVD-RW...!!!!) for under 300$.... who needs DVD burning on the road, anyway???!!! This way you can even copy DVDs from your Combo to your burner... and still cheaper than the powerbook

External superdrive = can't use iDVD = useless for many many people

[alfric]

YES, that's a good point... another example of Apple reducing the choice of their users (cf superdrive crippling, ibook crippling, etc). While some of these make sense economically, I don't understand why Apple can't just give us the option of an iDVDpro for say 75.- or 99.- for those who would like to burn to DVD-RW or other media not supported by the superdrive (partly due to crippling...)

Originally posted by Icruise:
External superdrive = can't use iDVD = useless for many many people

[fisherKing]

i have NEVER understood this; why does size=power? isnt a laptop (oops, sorry steve) NOTEBOOK computer by definition small & portable?

why can't i have a 12" screen powerbook with equal specs to a 15' book??

i want a fully pro machine, but also want the extreme portability...apple wants me to comprimise.

it angers me that the 14" ibook outspecs the 12"; cmon apple give customers choices!

[Sarc]

dammit ... I'm about 2 days from buying my first portable and this **** happens !!! I can't believe it !

I think I will go for the 12in PBG4 anyway ... I need a SuperDrive.

one other thing ... from what I read above.
is the iBook unable to plug itself to an external TFT display for example ? I need to hook up to an external monitor while I'm at home.

[naknek]

Originally posted by Sarc:
is the iBook unable to plug itself to an external TFT display for example ? I need to hook up to an external monitor while I'm at home.

If your external monitor has a VGA input, the iBook will hook up to it. The external monitor will just be limited to 1024x768 max. resolution.

[AssassyN]

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
now that the new G4 iBook uses DDR SO-DIMMs, can they use the 1GB chips that are selling for about $500 now for the Powerbook 12"?

In other words, is the limit _actually_ 1152 MB and not 640 MB on the new iBooks?

Absolutely, but Apple doesn't want to advertise this of course

[h00ligan]

dude, you didn't apply the 2x hack yet? GET ON IT IT RuLES.

Originally posted by Drakino:
I've burned and erased my collection of a few DVD-RW disks in my AlBook 15 inch a few times now. They only burn at 1x, but this worked out of the box with no hacks.

[h00ligan]

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
now that the new G4 iBook uses DDR SO-DIMMs, can they use the 1GB chips that are selling for about $500 now for the Powerbook 12"?

In other words, is the limit _actually_ 1152 MB and not 640 MB on the new iBooks?

well people say yes, and technically it should.. but does that mean the machine firmware..i.e. bios will support it? People who say yes have no clue.. no one has tried it yet.. nor will anyone for a while i am sure, i mean, the ram costs more then the ibook.

[Sarc]

Originally posted by h00ligan:
dude, you didn't apply the 2x hack yet? GET ON IT IT RuLES.

a friend's superdrive got-sorta-screwed after applying the patch

[h00ligan]

Originally posted by Sarc:
a friend's superdrive got-sorta-screwed after applying the patch

really wow.. what happened, and did he do the downgrade, if so , did that remedy it?

i shoudl say, i am on a tibook, that's the first problem i ever heard of it.. what were the symptoms?

[cobra27]

Just to add on:

Pro for Powerbook:

+ 200 MHz.
+ DVI-out
+ Monitor spanning (need hack for iBook?)
+ Better external monitor resolution (need hack for iBook?)
+ 256 KB more level 2 cache
+ Bluetooth (optional for iBook)
+ slightly lighter weight
+ slightly smaller size
+ 128MB more build-in RAM (non-removable)
+ 10GB more HD
+ better keyboard

Con for Powerbook:

- $100 more on Applecare
- battery life is shorter (could it be due to Panther?)

[Scooterboy]

Originally posted by HotSoup:
Which one do you think is better graphics wise? 12" PB's Graphix card vs. 14" iB Graphix card?

Thanks

AFAIK, the ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 with 32MB of DDR SDRA is better than the NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5200 with 32MB of DDR SDRAM.

[Sarc]

Originally posted by h00ligan:
really wow.. what happened, and did he do the downgrade, if so , did that remedy it?

i shoudl say, i am on a tibook, that's the first problem i ever heard of it.. what were the symptoms?

Don't know what the outcome was, point is I think he could record CD, but with some brands (particularly Verbatim) he started getting coasters.
Then I tried to make a DVD-R backup using his SuperDrive and got 2 coasters (that hurt), one at 2X and the other at 1X. It recorded the Lead In and the it failed.
Strange thing is that they where verbatim too.

Even stranger is that the same DVD's on another TiBook with the same specs, worked just fine.

Hope it helps.