[Deal]

I'm tired of hearing people write and say how much cheaper PC's and Dells are than Macs.

I have to buy one of each for somebody I work for and I configured a Dell laptop. It will have to be able to process stacks of images for 3-d rotation among other tasks, so I want some horsepower. Customizing this system came to $5,282! This is only a 1.7Ghz system! Give me a break!

The next time I hear somebody say PCs are cheaper (or Dells for that matter) I am going to jump down their throat.

A Mac with a larger screen, faster and bigger hard drive, twice as much ram and ALL the bells and whistles is only $4224!

I don't want to hear another PC troll say PC's are cheaper. It's a lie.

Thanks for listening to my rant. I'm going home.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by Deal:
I'm tired of hearing people write and say how much cheaper PC's and Dells are than Macs...

I don't want to hear another PC troll say PC's are cheaper. It's a lie.

Dude, I hate to burst your bubble but PCs are cheaper. Dell Inspiron 2.4GHz base unit $799 (256mb, 20gig). Sure you can add more memory and stuff but it sure looks late the cheapest flavor is much faster (GHz wise).

Don't shoot me, I'm no troll, I love my PB, but the fact is PCs are cheaper.

Mike

[cambro]

Dude the Inspiron you mention dosen't even have a graphics card....it has "INTEGRATED GRAPHICS" (which means regular old RAM is used for graphics processing that's put on the processor).

If you want a 32 MB GeForce card, that'll bump ya to $1099.

Oh, but wait...you want more than a 30GB hard drive?? Oh, that'll be another $60 to get you to 40 GB.

You also want to be able to burn CDs? Oh, well, since you asked, we'll give you an "online special" combo drive for free..normally that would cost you about $75.

Internal wireless too? That'll add $40, oh and it will delay your ship date for about 2 weeks too.

So, for $1199 (which includes a promotional free combo drive) shipping in 2 weeks we get:
Intel 2.66 Ghz/256MB/40GB/Combo/32 MB GeForce FX Go5200/Wireless/15" screen/weight "starting at" *cough* 8.25 lbs.
With a $100 rebate being offered, the price becomes $1099...but it'll still come with Windows XP!

The original poster is right, the price discrepency largely exists because Apple doesn't sell laptops without firewire ports, ethernet ports, built-in wireless/bluetooth, or dedicated graphics cards. If Apple pulled everything to give you a screen with a processor, didn't bundle iLife etc. the cost would be similar to a dell.

p.s. After shopping at Apple...Dell's website is a trainwreck.

[nsxpower]

Dell Inspiron 9100 (3 year warranty)
15,4 " WUXGA Dell UltraSharp™ (1920 x 1200)
Pentium 4 @ 3.2 GHz
1Gb DDR RAM (2 x 512)
Radeion 9700 128Mb DDR RAM
80Gb HD
DVD+R/+RW 4x/2.4x
1 FW 400
4 USB 2.0
IrDA
Bluetooth
S-Video
DVI

EUR 2694.68

============================================

Apple PowerBook G4
15,2" TFT (1280 x 854)
PowerPC G4 1.25 Ghz
1Gb DDR RAM (2 x 512)
Radeon 9600 64Mb DDR RAM
80Gb HD
DVD-R 1x
1 FW 400 + 1 FW 800
2 USB 2.0
Bluetooth
Airport Extreme
S-Video
DVI

EUR 3328.04

Ok, so Dell has a faster processor, faster graphics card with more RAM, faster DVD+R/+RW drive, a better screen (I really want PowerBook to get a higher resolution screen), 3 year warranty and is EUR 633.36 ($760) cheaper. Dell is DVI, has S-Video and integrated Bluetooth so the usual no DVI/S-Video/BT arguments are moot. 802.11 access can be added via PCMCIA for another $100 with better reception then Airport Extreme in the PowerBook.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by cambro:

...Dell's website is a trainwreck.

That's true.^^

I don't think Macs are cheap investments, but I am more surprised how competable Apple are. Afterall, Dell just put together components. Apple makes its own OS and spends a LOT more on development etc. In comparison, Dell is the expensive one.

[sniffer]

The Dell Inspiron 9100 is a desktop replacement @ 4 Kg/1,5 hour battery life versus 2,5 kg/4.5 hour battery life in the 15" PB. Portability costs major €€€.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by cambro:
So, for $1199 (which includes a promotional free combo drive) shipping in 2 weeks we get:
Intel 2.66 Ghz/256MB/40GB/Combo/32 MB GeForce FX Go5200/Wireless/15" screen/weight "starting at" *cough* 8.25 lbs.
With a $100 rebate being offered, the price becomes $1099...but it'll still come with Windows XP!

Ok, that nicely equiped laptop from dell for 1199 (1099 with rebate) lets compare that to Apple.

The low end 15" PB (w/o adding anything) is 1,999,
The top end 14" iBook $1499, only when you pick the low end iBook does the price come down to Dells fully stocked laptop.

No matter how you slice it, dell is still cheaper, I cannot see how you can support your thesis when its 1199 vs 1999, the low end ibook is not a fair comparison as its only a 12" and the dell is a 14" display.

The software is a whole different ball of wax, OSX is a whole lot better, and I truly believe the PB's are a better machine, but you are paying a premuim no doubt about.

Mike

[inigopete]

you may be paying a premium, but you'll get an Apple. Which will work. All the time (well, more or less, compared to WinTel). And it will definitely be worth something in 5 years' time. By which time the Dell will be a doorstop.

The Dell may be cheaper, but for the overall package, well, that's the reason we've all got Apples isn't it?


: P

[freakboy2]

in terms of reliability, apple's machine are more solid, but hd's got bad at the same rate in all computers and bad ram chips etc have the same failure rate.

reliability works like this:

if you don't drop it on its head, it will work until something goes wrong. the rate at which things go wrong is the same for all computers (assuming decent components.)

i doubt apple is buying components from different places than dell. if anything dell's massive buying would give them more leverage to get better and cheaper parts.

how can you say apple isn't overpriced. it is. it's worth it too, but nobody knows this.

by FAR the best deal apple has is the 12 inch ibook. no wonder they sold more ibooks than they expected. It's the best price/value by FAR.

fb

[SEkker]

I've been pondering this thread for some time -- and I ask, are we talking the same Dell computer manufacturer?

The form factor and build of the current Dell machines resemble the old Apple Wallstreets -- large, ungainly, and crude.

If you want to compare machine to machine, at least compare notebooks within the same portability range -- which to my mind are pretty much the Sonys, although a few select other models seem to be closing in the the Apple in terms of weight and performance.

And I have to disagree about the PCMCIA-based wireless -- my student's Dell laptop with a wireless card (sans antenna) could not receive the same signal as my PB17 on Wed in a conference room. If you want to add an external antenna, I am sure the signal is going to be better than any built in reception.

If you want a true portable desktop machine, and weight is no issue, then why stop at Dell? I hear Alienware sells an awesome machine that, ahem, weighs in at around 10 lbs. And it probably bests the Dell for performance.

[nsxpower]

Originally posted by sniffer:
The Dell Inspiron 9100 is a desktop replacement @ 4 Kg/1,5 hour battery life versus 2,5 kg/4.5 hour battery life in the 15" PB. Portability costs major €€€.

The original poster needed a computer for: "It will have to be able to process stacks of images for 3-d rotation among other tasks, so I want some horsepower."

You WANT AS MUCH HORSEPOWER AS YOU CAN GET for those tasks. Chances are the Dell will be able to process more images than the PowerBook, because it has horsepower ... with CPU going full throttle no laptop is going to last long on battery alone.

I could not be bothered to reconfigure a Prescision/Lattitude Dell laptop, but I am fairly sure that you could easily get a fast machine for less/same as a PowerBook with similar specs. Why stop at Dell, IBM T models are very nice ...

The point is that if you are looking for a machine for number crunching as its primary function than you should get a PC (or a G5), because you can get more horsepower for the same amount of money. If its portability you are after, well may be you should take a look at Centrino laptops many of which beat Apple's offerings in terms of size and longer lasting batteries etc. And I am sure those Centrino do as good a job as 12" PowerBooks. Style, then take a look at Sony VIAO which are the nicest looking laptops you can get in the PC world.

Apple biggotry should not have play a role in purchasing descisions for work. The truth is that PowerBooks are not the holy grail, with current specs and G4s inside they are easily outclassed by PC laptops in many categories.

Mods, please lock this thread. We've been through this several times and it never leads anywhere.

[His Dudeness]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
Dude, I hate to burst your bubble but PCs are cheaper. Dell Inspiron 2.4GHz base unit $799 (256mb, 20gig). Sure you can add more memory and stuff but it sure looks late the cheapest flavor is much faster (GHz wise).

Don't shoot me, I'm no troll, I love my PB, but the fact is PCs are cheaper.

Mike

Here's the argument that I really hate. You can't pick out the cheapest Windows PC and say it's cheaper than a Mac. You have to price out and configure a PC with the exact same features that a Mac has as standard features. Then you will see that PC's are more expensive. I priced out and configured an IBM Thinkpad with the same exact features as a G4 Powerbook and it came out to just over $3000. And I only compared it to a 15" Powerbook, not the 17".

[sniffer]

Originally posted by nsxpower:

I could not be bothered to reconfigure a Prescision/Lattitude Dell laptop, but I am fairly sure that you could easily get a fast machine for less/same as a PowerBook with similar specs. Why stop at Dell, IBM T models are very nice ...

IBM portables are quality products, but they are in the same price range or more expensive than Apple offerings.
I've seen excelent and cheaper portables that beats the current Apple offerings right on, but none of them have been from the major brands, and they also ship with very little software. Even if there is cheaper and better portables (just comparing hardware) out there, no one can argue Apple doesn't have competable products/prices. Just because there is cheaper than Apple out there it doesn't mean Apple is the more expensive/worse than anything else..

[Graymalkin]

<rimshot> With all the horsepower on that Dell laptop it'll infect a network with Windows worms with Blazing™ speed. </rimshot>

Obviously in some cases Dells and other PCs are going to be a lot cheaper than even a low end Mac. Once the PC is configured to meet the component specs of the Mac however the price difference disappears or even reverses. Dell's cheapo Dimension 2400 when configured to match the eMac's components ends up costing $38 more than the eMac. Whatever advantage the turbogigahertz Pentium gives to the Dimension is slapped down by the ridiculously anemic Intel Extremely Lame Graphics chip.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by inigopete:
you may be paying a premium, but you'll get an Apple. Which will work. All the time (well, more or less, compared to WinTel). And it will definitely be worth something in 5 years' time. By which time the Dell will be a doorstop.

The Dell may be cheaper, but for the overall package, well, that's the reason we've all got Apples isn't it?


: P

I agree completely and firmly believe that Macs are superior in design and quality (and every other aspect). They also look a whole lot cooler then a PC. On the software front OSX is lightyears ahead of XP, we don't have to put up with the daily security patches, the instability and inconsistancies with the OS.

That said we are paying a premium, but for me its worth it.

Mike

[Waragainstsleep]

Don't forget you get style for your money with a Mac.
More importantly, you are much less likely to spend hours dealing with tech support, or just trying to get the machine to do something you want it to with a PC.
And the Mac will be a whole lot more viable than the PC 3 years down the line, and will probably still be going strong after 5 years.

The cheapest way of all is to build your own PC, my housemates last one died after 18 months. Will his P4 last much longer than that? Very doubtful....

[buffalolee]

One thing to consider....

Macs are way cheaper if you value your time. I have spent hours updating and reinstalling Windows XP machines. In fact, while my girlfriend's computer was down, I would be surfing the web laughing at her (in a teasing way).

She wants an iMac FP, but I would like her to get the dual G5. Since she would be the main user of the computer, the iMac is the way to go. The reason why she likes the iMac is reliability & cuteness.

[Moose]

Originally posted by inigopete:
And it will definitely be worth something in 5 years' time. By which time the Dell will be a doorstop.

Still using that Lombard?

[Waragainstsleep]

I'm using one!

[cambro]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
The low end 15" PB (w/o adding anything) is 1,999,
The top end 14" iBook $1499, only when you pick the low end iBook does the price come down to Dells fully stocked laptop.

No matter how you slice it, dell is still cheaper,

I dunno about that...since the $1099 Dell price includes two limited-time "specials" from Dell (amounting to savings of about $200), it seems fair to compare that price to Apple's always-on education discount.

So...that brings the 14" iBook down to $1199. And it has a better graphics card. It also WEIGHS AT LEAST 2.5 POUNDS LESS. It also gets 2 MORE HOURS BATTERY LIFE.

So, with Dell's limited-time special offer prices on that notebook you save $100 over Apple's normally priced 14" iBook. Personally, avoiding carrying around 2.5 more pound and getting about 2 hours more battery life (Dell's inspiron is listed up to 4 hours, the iBook 6 hours) and a sweet bundled application suite makes null and void any small Dell-Apple price difference here.

P.S. Comparing the Dell Inspiron 5150 to any powerbook is just dumb.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by cambro:
I dunno about that...since the $1099 Dell price includes two limited-time "specials" from Dell (amounting to savings of about $200), it seems fair to compare that price to Apple's always-on education discount.

So...that brings the 14" iBook down to $1199. And it has a better graphics card. It also WEIGHS AT LEAST 2.5 POUNDS LESS. It also gets 2 MORE HOURS BATTERY LIFE.
P.S. Comparing the Dell Inspiron 5150 to any powerbook is just dumb.

Well, I was using Apple's normal iBook price since the education price are for those (students/teachers) in the education category (regardless if apple checks or not). Dell themselves has education pricing so you need to be consistant.

Throwing out the discounts dell has is not logical either. They are inplace and if I were to buy a new computer today I would take advantage of them. You need to compare what the price is now, not what it might be in the future when the discounts expire, because dell may cut the price then (likewise for apple).

so the Inspiron 1150 has a base price of 799, or using the configuration that cambro wrote earlier thats 1099 with the discount. The base 14" ibook is 1299 but the speed is 933MHz vs Dells' 2.4 GHz. So your paying more money for a slower cpu.

Again the delta is increased when you use the PBs, but for the sake of conversaion the iBook will suffice.

I don't know I'm still not seeing the logic that Macs can be cheaper (upfront expense). Under most normal circumstances their purchase price is higher then Dell's. I agree with ease of use and are superior machines, so in the long run Apple's are better.


Mike

[cenutrio]

Originally posted by nsxpower:
EUR 633.36 ($760) cheaper

I would never buy a PB in Europe, prices are so unfair compared to the US.

Get the PB in the US. PBs have a worldwide guarantee.

I got two iPods and a DV iMac (long time ago) for my brothers and sisters in Spain using my education status. All of them very good deals.

[cambro]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
I don't know I'm still not seeing the logic that Macs can be cheaper (upfront expense).

I think we're talking past each other here a bit...big surprise.

Apple simply does not sell anything that remotely resembles what Dell sells for peanuts. Period.

Apple is just not going to sell you a 8.5 pound laptop with 4 hours of battery life and a sucky graphics card. The fact that Dell will sell you one of these for just $200-300 dollars less (with rebates) than what Apple offers is the point here.

Ask Dell for a laptop that weighs less than 6 pounds, gets 6 hours of battery life, has a decent graphics card, and some bundled software comparable to what comes on board with a Mac (Quicken, iLife, etc.) and I doubt that any significant price difference will exist.

Also, when I go to Dell's higher ed. site, it quotes me a price of $1722.08 for the exact same machine that I speced out above.

[Charles Bouldin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nsxpower:
[B]Dell Inspiron 9100 (3 year warranty)
15,4 " WUXGA Dell UltraSharp™ (1920 x 1200)
Pentium 4 @ 3.2 GHz
1Gb DDR RAM (2 x 512)
Radeion 9700 128Mb DDR RAM
80Gb HD
DVD+R/+RW 4x/2.4x
1 FW 400
4 USB 2.0
IrDA
Bluetooth
S-Video
DVI

EUR 2694.68
QUOTE]

At work I have, side by side, a Dell M50 and a 1 ghz tibook. The Dell is something like a 2.4 ghz P4 and a 1600x1200 15" display. Do you realize how small the pixels are at that resolution? The extra pixels are almost meaningless, and what this really means is that you bump up the font sizes until you can read the damn text again.

Furthermore, there is no perceptible speed difference between the Dell and Tibook.

However, my main point is the the "pixel myth" is even more a blatant lie than the "mhz myth". Readability and usability count, not the raw number of pixels.

[goMac]

My Dell is a piece of crap. Laptop reliability aside, Windows is unnavigable and a pain to work with. I was trying to compile GNUStep for Windows the other day and I simply gave up. It was way too hard to navigate through the files.

If I did have to use a PC full time first thing I would do is load Linux.

[discotronic]

Originally posted by goMac:
My Dell is a piece of crap. Laptop reliability aside, Windows is unnavigable and a pain to work with. I was trying to compile GNUStep for Windows the other day and I simply gave up. It was way too hard to navigate through the files.

If I did have to use a PC full time first thing I would do is load Linux.

If I were to buy another laptop it would be from IBM and I would definately load it up with Linux. IBM's quality, IMO, is a good as Apple. They may not look as good as a PB but they are built like tanks.

[iomatic]

Well, if I were to buy a laptop (next week, actually), then it would be an Apple. What the hell are you doing here, anyway, discotronic? Trolling?


Anyway, the only reason to buy from Dell is to take advantage of their coupons and get battery-backup power supplies and the like. (I got a giant one for my server at a 40% discount, and at about 50lbs., shipped free. Genious.)

As well, if you check places like www.bensbargains.net or www.slickdeals.net, you're apt to find the raft of stackable Dell coupons that amount to cost+1-digit margins. Absolutely cool. Fahck it.

I wouldn't touch a PC with a 100-foot pole. Unless it's to toss it into the Unremarkable Hall of Computer Recycling.


...

...

[discotronic]

Originally posted by iomatic:
Well, if I were to buy a laptop (next week, actually), then it would be an Apple. What the hell are you doing here, anyway, discotronic? Trolling?


Anyway, the only reason to buy from Dell is to take advantage of their coupons and get battery-backup power supplies and the like. (I got a giant one for my server at a 40% discount, and at about 50lbs., shipped free. Genious.)

As well, if you check places like www.bensbargains.net or www.slickdeals.net, you're apt to find the raft of stackable Dell coupons that amount to cost+1-digit margins. Absolutely cool. Fahck it.

I wouldn't touch a PC with a 100-foot pole. Unless it's to toss it into the Unremarkable Hall of Computer Recycling.


...

...

If I were to buy another PC laptop.

I'm not trolling. If I was, I would be saying that Dell is the greatest, Windows is the only OS worth having and your are a *%$. Since I'm not, I didn't.

Apple isn't the only quality laptop on the market and OSX isn't the only OS out there either. Even though it is my primary OS, I am open minded about other ones such as Linux. Windows isn't worth my time.

[iomatic]

Understood-- my tone should've come across a little more lightly. Yeah, most people are OK with IBMs, from a Linux-geek kinda viewpoint.

Originally posted by discotronic:
If I were to buy another PC laptop.

[rag on a muffin]

dont like 20% of dells DOA? of course all of them SOA.

[nsxpower]

Furthermore, there is no perceptible speed difference between the Dell and Tibook.
However, my main point is the the "pixel myth" is even more a blatant lie than the "mhz myth". Readability and usability count, not the raw number of pixels.

http://www.barefeats.com/al15b.html <- Should settle all the speed questions, especially for the original poster. Even 1.7hgz Centrino absolutely toasted 1.33Ghz PowerBook ... so which one is going to better for processing "stacks of images for 3-d rotation"?

I am not happy with PowerBook LCD. Mediocre contrast and 1280 x 854 are what I want changed.

[sniffer]

Eww. All I see is two diagrams. What kind of data is that? And some people complain over Apple's wonder stats?

..not that I don't think there might be some truth in the UT03 diagram, but still.. That benchmark is worth nothing.

[nsxpower]

Originally posted by sniffer:
Eww. All I see is two diagrams. What kind of data is that? And some people complain over Apple's wonder stats?

..not that I don't think there might be some truth in the UT03 diagram, but still.. That benchmark is worth nothing.

You must be right. BareFeats are full of ****.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by nsxpower:
You must be right. BareFeats are full of ****.

No, that's not what I am saying.

We plan to do a more detailed, thorough comparison between Aluminum PowerBooks and some key Windows PC notebooks. Stay tuned.

..Well the page is dated "Posted 9/22/03".

At this moment all this page is showing is two diagrams. And that isn't evedense for anything. At best indicators. You can't use these diagrams as they where facts, and that's where you are going wrong.