[aprae]

i had my logic board replaced 2.5 years ago while it was still under warranty. then, last december i started having the same problems. since i was fairly certain it was the logic board again, i went about researching the various ways to repair it. finally, i decided the diy repair was the best option. i borrowed a heat gun and set up shop on my dining room table:
- four layers of aluminum foil with the bga space cut out
- put cardboard shims between the plastic frame and the components to try to help prevent curling
- placed three small pieces of solder on top of the chip
- scattered several pieces of solder in top of foil
- placed a digital probe thermometer to hover near the edge of the bga

i followed guy's suggestions on gradual temperature change. once the solder pieces melted, the fan from the heat gun was strong enough to blow the ball toward the edge of the chip. so i backed off the heat after only about 10 seconds. after cool down, the hardware tests passed, but later that night the video froze a couple of times. i didn't bother me at first because all reboots were successful, but only until the next time i bumped my computer. i figured another attempt at repair was in order. this time i was able to hold the heat at melting temp for about a minute. yada yada...i powered her up, pushed on the chip, shook the computer--no problems with video freeze.
there is some noticeable warping on the edge of the plastic frame, mostly around the headphone port.

i've been thinking...if this repairs sticks, then i could celebrate with a tiger upgrade. six months is a long time to go without my beloved ibook. it was a long time to go without updating my ipod as well.

thanks to guy kuo for his courage and generosity!
~amanda

[aprae]

i don't care what the thing looks like, i just want it to work!

[Gankdawg]

My G4 has been shutting down lately, same symptoms as before. Looks like it's time for either a bigger shim or find someone to solder pins 1 and 28 for me.

[aprae]

i've already posted what i did to my computer...the repair only worked temporarily. my computer runs fine for about ten minutes and then freezes. i even decided to put it on a desktop, but the same problem.
my question is: should i attempt the repair again?
is there some other visual aid/sign i can use to judge if the heat has been applied long enough?
any suggestions would be much appreciated.
thanks

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Gankdawg 

My G4 has been shutting down lately, same symptoms as before. Looks like it's time for either a bigger shim or find someone to solder pins 1 and 28 for me.

I thought about that too since I never considered the shim a good permanent fix.

But the problem is that I don't know if a plain old surface solder would be enough. The cracks in the solder that happen seem to be both behind and on top of the pin where it comes in contact with the motherboard.
It would require a much smaller solder tip than I own and I have never done any thing like this before. I would like to hear from more people who did G4 iBook fixes before I would consider it.



Anyone heard anything else about Apple and the G4 iBook issues?

[Jack_Malmostoso]

Hi guys, I registered just to tell you about my experience with this repair.
I have an iBook G3 900MHz that underwent the logic board repair, but after a few months the video card started with the usual problems again, until one day it just died.
So I read a few threads and decided for the surgery. Here you can see a picture of my rig:



Here my step by step guide:

1) Open up the iBook as described in the guide of ifixit.com
2) Place the iBook on a heat resistant surface. I work in a chemistry lab, so the counter was the best surface possible.
3) Put some heat conductive paste on the VGA chip.
4) Place a thermocouple on the chip (I placed it between the ATi one and the two small Samsung ones) and on top a metal bar. Make sure it is leveled just flat and that it presses on the chip uniformly. The idea is that the bar will heat up ONLY the chip, leaving the rest of the board and other sensitive parts untouched.
5) Place the heat gun on the other side of the bar and cover the end with some foil, to ensure maximum efficiency.
6) The bar will heat up very quickly and to very high temperature. Don't even think about touching it bare handed!
7) I had the thermometer go up to 190°C and then turn the heat gun off. I removed the steel bar (that's a difficult step: the paste will cause it to stick and it's going to be piping hot... you need some real professional grade gloves!) and let it cool down to room temperature.
8) Remount the iBook, turn it on and... behold!



Yes, that's my iBook G3 with 10.4.10 running!

[macbob_530@yahoo.com]

I just had my board reflowed by First Phase Techonlogies in Tempe, Arizona. The cost was $50.00 total cost, which I think is more than reasonable. They have a technician who has been doing this process for over 9 years. Give them a call 1-480-967-1100. Ask for Bobby or Tom.

TB

[Raulito15]

Hi. It seems to me that reflowing the joints on the BGA does not offer a permanent solution. I was looking on the internet and found that BGA's were preceeded by Pin Grid Arrays or PGA's and that they are more flexible in application than a BGA. I recently bought an ibook for the expressed purpose of removing the GPU placing it on a BGA to PGA adapter socket then placing it back on the board. I spoke to my proffessor (i'm an electrical engineering student), and I think this would provide a longer term fix since the metal pins can flex avoiding cracking. If it does not work it will at least allow the common person to adjust the board themselves. The only problem is that I have never seen the BGA of the GPU in an G3 ibook. In the previous reply someone said they got their GPU reflowed. The companies generally take X-rays of the BGA's and give them to their costumers. If anyone has gotten these services and has X-ray images or actually took of the GPU and has an image of the BGA it would help me alot if you could post the images. I posted a few threads where I go into more detail at either (Macworld: Possible Permanent Solution to G3 ibook logic Boar) or (Possible Permanent Solution to G3 ibook Nightmare | Applefritter) so have a look if you are interested.
Also, in terms of these services they will either offer to get you reflowing or reballing of your GPU. If you are looking for a temporary fix that will give you a year or two more then reflowing is a cheaper alternative to reballing the BGA. My professor said that generally when BGA's fail it is because of the uneven size of the balls on the BGA. Although reballing is generally more expensive than reflowing it is a better long term solution. If you go to (http://www.superiorreball.com) they reball ibooks for $60 which is cheaper than First Repair by $15. It is still possible in either case for the balls to crack but better safe than sorry.

[nitronick]

Hey all!

I finally found the time this weekend to attempt this reflow repair. I borrowed a heatgun from my former boss.
My iBook story started back about 2 or so years ago. I had just replaced the hard drive, as I was rapidly running out of room on the little stock 10gig drive. While on the way to Montana, the dreaded screen flicker started. As I had bought the iBook used from eBay, there wasn't any chance of a warranty repair for me. At the time, I knew it was a logic board problem, but was unaware of the exact problem. I did some looking on eBay and found a used replacement logic board. I installed it, and had the same problem. It sat for a while until I found an almost complete iBook for cheap (again, on eBay). I did some swapping, but still the same problem.
During some down time last winter, I happened upon this forum and thread
I had three logic boards available (to the left of the iBooks). One of them setting by its lonesome on a shelf, so it was the first test subject. I was a little concerned, as I had read of the 1500 watt guns here in this thread. Mine is a measley 450 watt. I stuck some solder in front of it, and it melted it pretty fast, so I guessed I was good to go.
I dressed the board with aluminum foil and preheated. Long story short, I fried the first test subject No boot sound or anything.
I get the second test subject out, and I am a lot more careful, paying attention to my preheat, ramp up time and total time I had the gun on the chip. Load her up, and I get a boot sound! IT WORKS!!! I have been through several reboots, and everything works great.
I moved on to the second one around 5 AM this morning. This is my original iBook. I follow the same procedure, and I get the boot sound! And video! But it was short lived. With all of the trouble I have had with this one, I am quite sure my drive was in need of some serious work. I try reloading the O/S, but can never get it to load from the CD. It always goes to OS 9.1 partition and hangs. That happened three times, and then I lost video again. Crap!
I pull it back apart and fire up the heat gun again. I use the shift while booting to try and enter safe mode. It completely loaded to 9.1. I toss in the OSX CD,and......
Here is the end result!



Now I'm going to have to get back on eBay and find a battery, a yoyo PS, Airport card, and a 512meg stick of RAM for the second iBook. My girlfriends daughter recently graduated highschool, and had to turn in the iBook issued by the school. She was absolutely sick about losing it. I think I'll give her my second one.


Anyway, sorry to talk so long, but I am way excited to have not one, but TWO iBooks up and running!

Thanks to the original poster for taking that first step.

[Raulito15]

To anyone reading this. Do not, I mean do not try this!!! I have been speaking to an SMT rework expert (they work with these types of chip especially BGA's) and he told me that when you heat the chip you actually cause the heat required to melt the solder balls under the BGA to increase. Eventually, the heat required to melt the solder would certainly destroy the chip itself. Because this "reflowing" of the solder does not solve the problem it will inevitably happen again. This fact applies to hot air guns, coins, and alcohol based burning. In fact these methods probably and most certainly do cause the logic board to warp "technically" reconnecting it to the chip. Obviously, you do not want to go running around warping your logic board. This SMT expert posted his analysis of these home grown fixes at (Console Realm - Xbox 360 - 3 Red Light Error by SMTRework)
for anyone who is interested. Do not be alarmed by the specific address to X-Box's problem because this GPU BGA array failure goes for them, Thinkpads, and any other idiotic company who decided to go crazy with garbage BGA chips that are not ment for high use electronics. Don't get me wrong I love a apple and will always prefer an apple computer over any other but they just let the ball drop with this one... hard.

Yes your best bet is to get an expert to do this. You can get a reflow of your chip or you can get a reballing of your chip. Reflows are cheaper (usually $50 for everything including shipping) than reballing but these will probably give you a year or two before it breaks again unless you leave your ibook on a desk for the rest of its life. Reballing is more expensive >$60 but would probably offer a more a comprehensive fix. You will probably want to get the strongest solder possible and find some way of keeping your ibooks logic board cool so as to be less likely to warp. The only way I see to permanently fix this problem is to replace the GPU's BGA with something more flexible which is what I am working on right now.

A good reflow/reballing service is at (www.superiorreball.com) they reball for $60 and reflow for $50. This is probably as cheap as it is going to get because it is just triple digits after that. Also I think there are two services on ebay that will either reflow so just search ibook repair and you'll find them.

Sincerely Raulito15

[nitronick]

This is twice that you have tried to talk people out of performing this repair. Why?
If someone is so totally dependent upon their laptop, they have surely by now either replaced it with a newer model or have had it reworked by a professional.
As was the case with the original poster, I had nothing to lose if I fried the chip. After a couple of attempted repairs with used components, I had two complete but non working iBooks sitting on a shelf collecting dust. I understand that I could have them reworked by a "professional", but I was not willing to sink any more money into this computer. Hell, I have more computers around the house than I know what to do with. I had the time this past weekend to play around with this, and THEY WORK. They may only last a week, or a month, or five more years. It doesn't matter. My life is not going to be over if they quit tomorrow, as I do not have any vital bits if information on them, but I do have two laptops that I can play around with when I have the time.
Lighten up a bit.....

[Raulito15]

Of course their are people who have had this problem for a while although I doubt they have had their logic board reworked as you yourself have attested. However, there are also people who's ibooks have JUST broken who do not understand the full ramifications of these heat methods. On every post that have these solutions, I have not seen anyone talk about the downside of this do it yourself methods which is important. Maybe you do not want to throw a few more dollars to give your laptop a few more years but that does not mean other people do not especially once they have weighed the cost and benefits of DIY repairs. Not only that, but many people are doing these bad repairs and then putting the laptops on ebay and not telling what they did which is unfair to customers. Plus, I guarantee you that both your ibooks will eventually fail again within a matter of months once they accumulate considerable wear. You asked me why I try to talk people out of this. I ask your why make the problem worse when you can make it better? But, on a lighter note congratulations on your working ibooks.

[Raulito15]

Also, aside from the bad GPU's these ibooks are still pretty good computers. And for much less than a macbook you can keep it that way.

[Guy Kuo]

There are certainly some warnings about this. Note the first posting in this thread. You CAN destroy your machine trying this.

Then again, after this surprisingly worked, that iBook of mine continues running 24/7 as a light web server taking an average of 2,000 hits/day.

[nitronick]

One thing we will never know is the true nature of the defect. I doubt Apple will EVER admit to the real problem. It could be bad solder with a weird tin/lead mix, or merely cold solder joints.
If it is the first one, I'm gonna guess that the repairs will not last if used as a portable unit. Crap solder is crap solder. Not much you can do about it except clean it off and replace it. A difficult job indeed, and best left to professionals with the proper equipment to perform such a task. If it is the second one, the reflow fix should be adequate for a permanent solution. At least permanent enough to get the proper amount of life one should be getting out of these laptops. Being an audio engineer, I have had to reflow more than my fair share of cold solder joints. This is the first time I have done it with a glorified hair dryer
Either way, these chips were built with tolerances to withstand the heat to flow the solder to the pads on the circuit boards. Taking the precautions of slowly preheating the circuit board to lessen the thermal shock, slowly ramping the temperature up to get a good solder flow, and slowly ramping DOWN the heat, there shouldn't be any problems. Looking at the data sheet information given by MacInEnterprise, I think the BGAs can take the heat we are putting to them, and there shouldn't be any warpage of the circuit board.

[Raulito15]

You say you have a data sheet. Is for the ibook or for the GPU itself. If it is for the GPU I would like to have a copy. Could you post a link to the datasheet so that I may look at it.

[nitronick]

Look for MacInEnterprise post. I think it was on page one. I do not believe it was a data sheet for this particular chip, but general data for BGAs.

[nitronick]

From page 1

Here's is a more specific and accurate curve:

1. A gradual increase in temperature, of about 1 to 3 deg. up to a temperature of 150 deg C (302 F). Pre-heating is extremely important so boards don't warp. It may take a minute or even longer to pre-heat...No need to rush it. Flux activation begins at 150 deg. C (302 F)
2. Through the flux activation phase, a slow ramp up of temp. to a peak of about 180 degs. C (356 F) over about 90 seconds. Reflow begins at about 180 degs. C (356 F)
3. A gradual increase during the reflow phase to about 210 degs. C (410 F) for 60 sec.
6. Cooling phase should then begin gradually, not abruptly.

I found a really good graph of the temperature curve here:

www.altera.com/literature/an/an081.pdf

So, as long as the heating is gradual and controlled you should be able to reflow the solder without frying the rest of the board. Yes...the whole board will get quite hot despite masking everything around the video chip. As long as it's gradual and controlled, you should be OK.

You may also smell the flux as it heats up, which is normal.

[Raulito15]

The problem is not the abrupt heating it is the successive iterations that when the chip is again and again. Generally chip manufactures will publish data sheets that detail the optimum heating curve and the number of times heating can and should be done. The thing about solder in general is that it gains a tolerance for heat and will require more heat to reach its melting point. So eventually you won't be able to melt the solder anymore at reasonable temperatures with conventional methods and thus the entire computer is ruined because the removing the chip will destroy the entire board. Although I think that if you just do not want to spend more money on these chips then I guess it would not be so bad because your just biding your time till you get a new one. However, it is worth noting that technically all ATI Mobility Radeon GPU chips are interchangeable with one another and so for around the same price as a reflow one could just pay upgrade the chip. If I am correct the G4's GPU do not have a problem with the BGA coming off the board but with a small IC pin coming loose as pictured above. I also intend to try to do that to fix one of my ibooks to see if it is truly compatible (hard to trust ATI after all this) . I got an ATI 9000 off of ebay for $28 so its worth a try.

But ultimately, I guess we can agree that if you only want to get a few more months or years out of your ibook (depending on use) than this method would be fine but, if you want to give your ibook some more years regardless of use than the best alternative is to get it reballed by a pro or to find some way to fix the BGA problem in general. I just wish there was a better way to fix this. Where mac people after all, let Ugg the stone age PC user set his computer on fire not us. (no offense to any PC users out there)