[dogbreath2200]

Ok, I am getting a computer for college and have narrowed my choices down to a 12" or 15" powerbook (for various reasons I don't have the time to elaborate on). I wanted to know whether I would ever need the PC card in the 15", the fact that I'm asking this probably suggests that I don't need one. Still, I would like to know the possible uses for the slot and whether I would miss it.

Next is my concern for the graphics performance of the nVidia card in comparison to the ATI card in the 15". I will only be doing the occasional gaming but will want the laptop to serve me for the next 5 years, in light of this would it be a good investment to go with ATI. I have also heard the nVidia card in the 12" is a pretty low-end card, true or not?

I have read on this forum that the quality of the LCD on the 12" isn't on par with the 15" and 17". The only knock people had on it is its poor color performance when viewed on angle. Any advice or personal experience you care to share with me?

If I haven't bored you guys yet, I want to know how important the FireWire 800 port is, it doesn't strike me as vital but do you guys have any thoughts?

I really appreciate any and all advice/counsel you guys could give me. I visited the apple store yesterday to see the machines up close (I have already read all the specs), but only came away knowing that I don't want an iBook. Thanks Again!

[WizOSX]

There are really very few uses for the PC card slot on the Mac. I have a USB 250 Zip drive that also has a PC card with it. That was nice when I first bought it 2.5 years ago. I got a Ti550 Powerbook and could take the Zip drive anywhere without needing a power adapter. But that was the only use I ever made of the PC card slot and with CDRW's Zips have really disappeared. On the PC side, the main use of the PC card slot is to add either Ethernet or wireless to older notebooks that don't have those features. But the new Powerbooks have those already.

[jewing80]

I too am considering getting a 12" 1.33, having owned a Ti for over a year and also having used a couple 12" models and a 1.25 and 1.5 15" here are the conclusions that I've found.

Although I have never used the PC card slot on any of my portables, Powerbooks included, I can see a couple uses. For example my wireless provider (Sprint PCS) offers a wireless PC card allowing users to access the net via the wireless network (I have no idea about Mac compatibility.) I do essential the same thing with my Vision service and a USB cable, but for some the PC card option makes more sense Additionally the PC card slot allows for things such as media readers or added ports, again in my particular case I've never had the need to use one. Since I've never seen a use in the past I doubt I would miss it in the future.

Although on paper the GPU in the 15" is clearly superior to the nVidia I'm not too sure how much real world difference you would see. I was actually quite stumped after running the Xbench OpenGL test on both my BTO 15" 5400 RPM, 128MB Radeon 9700, and a stock 12" 1.33 at the Apple store. The 12" actually scored 9 fps better. Of course benchmarking is largely academic, the test does go to show the 5200 although made by nVidia is not by any means a dog. Trust me I'm an ATI guy and would have much preferred a 64 MB 9600, but in any case for light gaming and external monitor use it should be fine.

The 12" LCD quality is one of the most subjective topics you will find. The first time I saw an 867 12" I was very disappointed with he screen. Not only was the viewing angle poor, the colors were washed out and the brightness was sub par. Over time one of two things has happened, either Apple has improved the quality of the screen or my eye sight has gotten better. The last two revisions of the 12" seem to have much improved screens. The last example I saw, 12" 1.33 still suffered from the reduced viewing angle and dim overall appearance, however it seemed to be acceptable, even after fooling around for a half hour my eyes did not feel strained. Having said this the screen is nowhere near the sharpness or brightness of my Ti.

As for FW 800 I can see two real advantages. First of all and most obvious it adds another FW port to your Powerbook. I like the idea of being able to use an iSight (with an 800 to 400 adapter) and an iPod without out having to continually unplug and re-plug ( know I could just use a hub.) Secondly the FW800 port is perfect for an external HD. Although both are nice features they are not necessities for me.

My decisions to sell my Ti and go with a 12" is largely due the the support I've received on this forum. For my use the 12" will be just fine; however I do not know if it would be right for you. I'm fortunate enough to be able to upgrade my Powerbook every 12-18 months; if you are planning on using the same machine for 5 years you may want to go with the best machine you can possibly afford. I know my Ti would last at least another couple years, if I had to I could probably eek a five year life span without much problem especially with the user upgradable HD. For as much as I love the 12" I don't think I would be able to use it as my primary machine for more than a couple years, I really can't say why... I just don't think I could.

Good luck, both are great machines!

Jacob

[phil_phree]

For what its worth. I'm in the same boat, I'm looking at notebook for law school.

I went to the apple store to specifically look at the screens on the 12 vs 15, weight, and the mini dvi ports. My conclusion was:

1. The viewing angle and brightness is so much better on the 15 that to me its almost worth the price difference. I looked at the finding nemo demo and it was a night and day comparison.

The best way to qualify this issure for yourself is to ask, "If I am working with a partner, do I want to be able to share the screen easily?" The widescreen format is also looked much nicer than the 14 inch ibook. The brightness was a big plus and is something you might want to consider if your doing working in a classroom with flourescent ligthing. I.E. The 12 inch screen would probably be fine if I'm at home working with the lights low, but it seemed washed out in a classroom setting.

2. The 15 is definetly heavier and the size is quite noticable, duh! This is a big issue for me though, because I take notes in class and work often in the library, so its a tradeoff. The size is the biggest drawback.

3. How often do you expect to make presentations. I don't always know what type of projection system is available, so I'm actually somewhat leary about the DVI outs. Anyway the 12, comes with a mini dvi to dvi converter. Both need a dvi to vga adapter, so this is another added cost.

Good luck with your decision.

[Fellow2000]

Why would you want this laptop to last 5 years? I think that goal is highly unrealistic. Besides that, if you are intent on having a warranty (as every notebook owner should be), Apple offers almost free upgrades to students each year. The plan follows like this.

With the purchase of your computer, you will receive a one-year warranty. You will also get a student discount on the machine, making it instantly worth more than what you paid for it. The great thing about Apple computers is that they hold their value fairly well.

Now, after a year, you will want to upgrade your warranty. This will cost you $350. You will also want to upgrade the OS that Apple so religiously updates every year. That will be another 70 dollars (student pricing).

So, after one year, your total new cost is roughly $450. However, you will still be left with a year old machine. Since Apple also updates their powerbook line at least once a year, why not just get a new machine? Sell your 10 or so month old machine when the new models come out for roughly 15 to 20 percent less than what you paid for it (because you got that wonderful student discount). Now, with that cash in hand, go buy yourself a new model.

The plus is, you will still get the student discount on the new model, and that small 15 to 20 percent loss that you took by selling your used, is still far less than the $450 figured earlier. Your new machine will not only be the latest and greatest out there, but you will also have the newly updated operating system and a new 1 year warranty.

Repeat each year and stir lightly...

[CambAngst]

Just FYI, since you asked, Sprint's cellular wireless service is extremely Mac-hostile. The control s/w only exists as a PC executable and the only CMDA-capable wireless PC card that has Mac drivers is explicitly not supported by Sprint. SprintPCS is, in general, a Mac-hostile company.

[tkmd]

I still use the PCMIA slot. I have a camera and when I need to DL the pics the slot adapter comes in VERY handy, considering I *hate* bring a usb cable with me everywhere.

[dogbreath2200]

All of your input has been *extremely* helpful.

I don't think the presentation equipment uncertainty is a moot point, since I could get a $20 DVI>S-Video & RCA adapter

Still not sure about the video card difference, anyone have a second opinion? For gaming? Any first hand experience? Do you think the performance settings of the two laptops were set different jewing180?

RE PC Cards: Do they actually make PC Card memory readers for reading digital media? The Sprint phone is not a concern as I will be using a sonyericcson t616 I got for christmas intended for the very purpose of using with my future mac. The possibility of having a built-in media reader is a cool idea though.

Fellow2000's perpetual upgrade plan seems like a great idea--any other input on this. My only reservation is that this computer is a graduationg present from parents so I might feel a little weird just trading it in 10 months later. Still....

Word on the street seems to be the 12" screen isn't really up to par, huh? That's a shame. Well, I will probably make another visit to the apple store and take a look at the screens. It seems the 12" screen is moderate-good with just one person in low light, poor-moderate in brighter lighting and bad-poor with two or more viewers.

Any real college students or others who frequently take their notebooks for a gander? ie. a local coffee shop, airplanes, classes. What are your first-hand experiences?

I would have copious screen real-estate if I attached an LCD monitor to the 12" while in my dorm room, but that adds $500 to my cost of ownership, besides the fact that i couldn't very well carry the LCD to the library. Anyone have experience using the 12" with an external LCD (Say 17") vs. the 15" by itself. What do you find to be more efficient?

I guess I just need to make a decision :-)

BTW-phil_phree, where did you go to college & where are you going to law school?

Thanks Guys,
Arthur Etchells

[Graymalkin]

For a laptop you take you through college I think I'd suggest a 15" Powerbook instead of the 12". Dorm rooms are tiny and you've got a minimum of extra space. Every inch of desk space you can not take up with computer equipment is more space you can write on or just have a less cluttered environment. This would seemingly suggest the 12" since it is tiny but you'll also want something with enough screen real estate to look at for hours on end. I can sit and use my 12" for a long time and not get too uncomfortable but I find 1024x768 to be a little too limiting. If I'm sitting around with a Safari window and a couple iChat windows open my desktop feels positively swamped. I used far fewer programs simultaneously in Jaguar before I had Exposé available. As such I keep my Powerbook plugged into my 19" monitor when I'm at home and run the display at 1280x960.

I think in the long run you'll find the larger screen of the 15" a bit better for your laptops intended role of primary computer. The 15" PBs aren't so large you'll not be able to easily carry one around with you but not so small they might be uncomfortable to use for long periods of time. You can get a 15" from the educational store with a 1.5GHz G4, 5400rpm HDD, Combo drive, and 512MB of RAM for $2,164 which I think is one of the best deals Apple has ever had on their high-end laptops.

You might be able to upgrade your laptop every year as was outlined but that tactic might come back to bite you. Sometimes new releases can really undervalue the system you've already got. You've also got to have the money to upgrade on hand, if the difference between the sale price and new price of given Powerbooks is upwards of $600 you're going to need $600 to do the upgrade. You also need to make sure you sell you existing system during its prime value time. If you do decide to go that route keep a close eye on what your existing system is going for on eBay and such places.

[iREZ]

I have my 12" everywhere I go and its perfect for working on the go, and when I get home I used to hook it up to my external monitor but the 12" screen has really grown on me and I dont even hook it up to my monitor unless I'm going to have a long photoshop or final cut session. The 15" is a powerhouse of a computer when spec'd all the way up, but for me the 12" PB is the ultimate student notebook. I've used the 15" before as well and although the screen is nice, the only time I needed the extra real estate was when I was sitting at a desk, in which case you could connect the 12" to the external if needed. Both are awesome computers and you have a real fun decision on your hands.

[dogbreath2200]

Thanks again for the help.
iRes- how long have you had your 12" and how much longer do you expect to have it. also, what rev do you have and what is your take on viewing the screen on angle & its brightness and contrast, particularly in bright lighting.
raymalkin-thank for the input on that upgrade plan, I would still need to buy applecare a year after I buy the computer, in which case buying a new computer would provide another year's worth of service. also, you specced out the computer without the superdrive as being a great deal...any reason?

Thanks again

[iREZ]

I plan on keeping my Rev B till the Rev B G5's come out. Which woul probably be the end of 2005 and begining of 2006. As for the brightness, even in bright lit settings your eyes get used to it, the 15" is said to have a better screen when in bright lit areas but my 12" is fine. As for a superdrive, I don't find them necessary at all, maybe in like a year or two they'll be handy but for now unless you wanna iDVD, stick with the combo. Backups are alot better on Ext. HD's or even iPods (wink wink). I'll tell ya one thing though, if I had money to throw around I would definetly get a 15" vs a 12" but being in college a 12" is really handy, especially with its smaller footstep. Check out the comps yourself at a local store and see if the 12" is too small for ya, or if the 15" is too big, you're your best critic.

[slider]

Wanted to chime in on the PCMCIA slot. I wanted the slot, just incase there was something I wanted to add down the road, I wanted the option to be able to add it. Lot's of folks seem to use it as a media reader; i don't. These PB's just have everything you'll need, fw, usb, giga ether, video out, dvi, modem, usb 2. I think I'll be hard pressed to find something to use it for, still though, if something does come out, I'll have the expansion option, but it's certainly nothing you'll need. What I thought was funny, when I initially thought of this, was when Apple went from 2 slots to 1 with the into of the Ti there was this huge up roar about it. Yep, media reader is all I can come up with, oh, wait, a PCS wireless card and a WiFi card to wardrive with.

[dogbreath2200]

So iRez--was your decision motivated primarily by cost or size or a little bit of both. Thanks for the help all!
Arthur

[iREZ]

I got the 12" due to fact that it was really portable, much less then the 15" combo, and the only thing that bothered me was the 32MB of VRAM, but I eventually got used to that. I'd take the ATI 9700 over the Nvidia in my PB, but the Nvidia does its job and takes less energy to drive which helps battery life and is better for Open GL, so I've been told. If you want a computer to last you the next 5 years, spend every cent you could right now. I think the 15" is a fantastic computer, but for my needs the 12" was right up my alley. If I were you I'd get the suped up 15", I'm talkin 1.5GHz, SD, 5400HD, 128VRAM, backlit keyboard, basically the works. If your going to get the 1.3GHz 15", then I highly recomend the 12" seeing how you'd only be missing a port or two, and have less screen real estate.