[dtkirkpa]

With today's announcement of price breaks and hardware upgrades on the iBooks, I am once again hopeful that Apple will take this opportunity to change their disdainful treatment of the 12" Powerbook.

I have always been bothered by the 'poor cousin' status of the 12" PB. Apple seems to equate 'small size' with 'less capable', and it shouldn't be so. I'd gladly pay the same amount of money as the top of the line 15" PB for a 12" PB with the same specs, differing only in the size of the screen and the body of the machine. Why does the 12" have to suffer with lesser video cards, slower ethernet, and slower Firewire ports? I can't imagine that the components are substantially different in size as to preclude their incorporation in the 12".

If Apple really feels that the 12" PB should be offered at a lower price point, and needs to do it by reducing the functionality of the PB, at least the company could offer upgrades as a BTO option. As I said before, I'd pay more for them. In my case, the form factor is the selling point - I've owned a Duo230, a PB2400, and the 12" PB revB. I prefer the smallest form factor possible, but I'd love to have the specs of the larger PBs.

C'mon now, Apple! Grant the 12" PB its proper status. Take this opportunity to equalize the capabilities of your Powerbook line.

[ibook_steve]

Originally posted by dtkirkpa:
...Why does the 12" have to suffer with lesser video cards, slower ethernet, and slower Firewire ports? I can't imagine that the components are substantially different in size as to preclude their incorporation in the 12".

If Apple really feels that the 12" PB should be offered at a lower price point, and needs to do it by reducing the functionality of the PB, at least the company could offer upgrades as a BTO option. As I said before, I'd pay more for them. In my case, the form factor is the selling point - I've owned a Duo230, a PB2400, and the 12" PB revB. I prefer the smallest form factor possible, but I'd love to have the specs of the larger PBs.

C'mon now, Apple! Grant the 12" PB its proper status. Take this opportunity to equalize the capabilities of your Powerbook line.

OK, you want two things that can't go together: smaller size with more features. Let's go through your list. Graphics chip: better chip means more heat and more power use. A smaller heat sink and a small battery prevents this. Ethernet: gigabit ethernet requires a *huge* component for the magnetics. They're getting smaller, but have you looked at the magnetics in a 15" or 17" PB? And again, power comes into play. And how many people have a gigabit network to hook up to? Firewire: Again, component size and power are the limiting factors. I don't know how you can think that the value of the 12" is not worth it. I'm surprised you don't want a PC card slot, too. I have a 12" and love it.

Steve

[dtkirkpa]

Okay, I can buy the size/power issues with the firewire port and the gig ethernet. I do have access to a gig ethernet network, but realize that many won't see any benefit but will suffer from the power and heat issues. I never used the PC card slot in my 2400 for anything other than an ethernet card, and haven't missed it in my 12" rev B.

However, it looks as if Apple's been able to upgrade the GPU at least once, and the chip speed twice, without radically re-engineering the guts and without a hit on battery. In regards to heat, the rev B's were significantly cooler than the rev A's, even though chip speed was increased (although this may have been accomplished by an internal rearrangement, which affects what I just said in the previous sentence!).

I'd be delighted with parity on the CPU and GPU; parity with the other components is less important. Perhaps then both Apple and the rest of the world wouldn't be so dismissive of the 12" as the 'entry-level' Powerbook (or at least that's the attitude a lot of people seem to have regarding this computer).

I too love my 12", or did until someone stole it last weekend. I'm going to replace it with a revC, but was hoping that the iBook upgrades would also encompass a 12" upgrade to maintain some distance between the two lines. I'll still pick the 12" over the iBooks, as the 14" iBook screen is too big, their GPU is too wimpy to run Core Images next year, and I use monitor spanning.

I do like the idea of the 13" widescreen mentioned in another thread, if the overall size can still be kept to a minimum.

[ibook_steve]

Originally posted by dtkirkpa:
...However, it looks as if Apple's been able to upgrade the GPU at least once, and the chip speed twice, without radically re-engineering the guts and without a hit on battery. In regards to heat, the rev B's were significantly cooler than the rev A's, even though chip speed was increased (although this may have been accomplished by an internal rearrangement, which affects what I just said in the previous sentence!). ...I too love my 12", or did until someone stole it last weekend. I'm going to replace it with a revC, but was hoping that the iBook upgrades would also encompass a 12" upgrade to maintain some distance between the two lines. I'll still pick the 12" over the iBooks, as the 14" iBook screen is too big, their GPU is too wimpy to run Core Images next year, and I use monitor spanning.

I do like the idea of the 13" widescreen mentioned in another thread, if the overall size can still be kept to a minimum.

This, my friend, is what we in the computer industry call "normal technological progress." Over time, chips get faster (Moore's Law). At first they are at higher power. As more work is done on them, their power levels improve and are lowered to the point where a box, say a tiny 12" Powerbook, can sufficiently cool them. The rev A to rev B 12" is a perfect example of this progression. The first 12" machine was a brand new enclosure with a brand new chipset. Don't you know to be wary of first rev products? By rev B, a better graphics chip that used less power was available and could be used and the cooling system was improved. Bingo! Faster, yet cooler. I think you're just a little upset about having your Powerbook stolen, so you are looking for an out for your anger. It's OK.

Steve

[im_noahselby]

Originally posted by dtkirkpa:
I'd gladly pay the same amount of money as the top of the line 15" PB for a 12" PB with the same specs, differing only in the size of the screen and the body of the machine.

I sure as hell wouldn't!

The 12" PB is at a perfect price point and it belongs at the bottom of PowerBook lineup. Moving it all the way up to the top makes little sense in my mind.

Noah

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by dtkirkpa:
I'd gladly pay the same amount of money as the top of the line 15" PB for a 12" PB with the same specs, differing only in the size of the screen and the body of the machine.

You may be in the minority, while deciding on a PB, the 12" was tempting not just for the size but the price (I eventually bought the 15"). Even today, I would not pay the same for a 12"

Mike

[Voch]

One niche item I'd like to see is Gigabit ethernet on the 12" PowerBook and iBooks. I've been spoiled by it on my TiBook ever since I added it to my PC (moving big files between the two computers with a cable connection (no switch) is quick). It's very handy for machine-to-machine transfers, especially since Gigabit PCI cards can be had for ~$30USD now (again, without any hub/switch hardware, though).

Voch

[t500]

I have a rev a 12inch and love it. But the new I book is starting to look pretty good. Alot faster, better video performance. Bang for the buck, it looks like its the way for me to go! I'll wait for Macworld in January. I'm not looking for a monster, I have my DP G5 for that. I would just like a little more oump....

The Powerbook just looks more professional, and I really like that...

[hldan]

Originally posted by ibook_steve:
OK, you want two things that can't go together: smaller size with more features. I don't know how you can think that the value of the 12" is not worth it. I'm surprised you don't want a PC card slot, too. I have a 12" and love it.

Steve

For the record a PC card slot should be in the 12" Powerbook. And don't say it's too small to place it because there are 10" screen PC notebooks with one and an optical drive.
I have the Sprint Merlin card and can only use it my 17" Powerbook and not my 12" machine.
The backlit keyboard should be another feature in the 12" as well. Business travelers need that type keyboard on plane flights. These are features that totally separate the iBooks from the Powerbooks and the 12" Powerbook gets no love from either.

[ibook_steve]

Originally posted by hldan:
For the record a PC card slot should be in the 12" Powerbook. And don't say it's too small to place it because there are 10" screen PC notebooks with one and an optical drive.
I have the Sprint Merlin card and can only use it my 17" Powerbook and not my 12" machine.
The backlit keyboard should be another feature in the 12" as well. Business travelers need that type keyboard on plane flights. These are features that totally separate the iBooks from the Powerbooks and the 12" Powerbook gets no love from either.

Wow, I just love this. OK, do you have a link to these tiny boxes that are wasting gobs of space with PC cards? What is missing from these boxes that lets them put in a slot? And why don't you just use a bluetooth cell phone to dial up wirelessly? Finally, you must be the first person ever who says that anybody *needs* the backlit keyboard. Besides wasting battery power and looking pretty, what does it do for you? Yes, the light sensors do adjust the screen brightness, but I have fingers and can push the brightness controls higher and lower when I need to. None of your arguments hold any water. If you don't like the 12", then why did you buy it?

Steve

[hldan]

Originally posted by ibook_steve:
Wow, I just love this. OK, do you have a link to these tiny boxes that are wasting gobs of space with PC cards? What is missing from these boxes that lets them put in a slot? And why don't you just use a bluetooth cell phone to dial up wirelessly? Finally, you must be the first person ever who says that anybody *needs* the backlit keyboard. Besides wasting battery power and looking pretty, what does it do for you? Yes, the light sensors do adjust the screen brightness, but I have fingers and can push the brightness controls higher and lower when I need to. None of your arguments hold any water. If you don't like the 12", then why did you buy it?

Steve

Okay so I can shut you up since you are so abrupt about anything I said and especially didn't say. You need to read better, I never once said I didn't like the 12" Powerbook, not once!!!
I certainly am not the first person who appreciates the added backlit keyboard feature and it's purely by preference so I never said that everybody here wants it. A bluetooth cell phone is not an option for everyone so that's unnecessary for you to even mention that since that wasn't part of my posting and I wasn't asking for your advice on wireless internet.
Also you need to exercise a bit of common courtesy as I have the same priveledge to write whatever I want within Macnn's guidelines and I do believe that what I wrote was not being discourteous towards anyone.

Lastly here is the link to one of those so-called tiny boxes. It's the Sony PC 10.6" notebook with a PC card slot with a built-in optical drive and has the option of DVD-R and IEEE 1394 and lots more.
I don't want one, I was pointing out that size can't be the reason Apple won't put in a PC card slot however they put one in the larger Powerbooks and the 12" needs more separation from the iBooks.

You should keep your views to yourself if you can't be objective in a humble way instead of slamming people. I noticed how you were kinda rude to the previous poster.

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ures/more.isml

[ibook_steve]

I am not slamming you or being discourteous. I was simply disproving each of your points.

Steve

[MilkmanDan]

Honestly, the only reason anyone complains about the graphics card is for games, and honestly, who cares on a sub-compact notebook?

Honestly for the price, the 12in Powerbook is a good deal. I've enjoyed it small size while still having the same kick-ass power that the 15ins have. (Seeing how there are two options to the processor speed of the 15in)

My room mate has a 15in Powerbook, and he likes the big screen, though he does find it annoying that its so big. Whereas I bought the 12in knowing it was slightly less powerful in some areas then the 15in, because I wanted the portability.

[poocat]

However, you're doing it in a pretty intense fashion that attempts to depict him as the only person to ever think this way, which isn't true.

It is simply a fact that the 12" powerbook is between the ibooks and the powerbooks. It has more features than the first, and not as many as the later. This can't be disputed. In the 13" powerbook thread there's a link to a toshiba with a card slot. These things are not impossible, they are choices. No one is saying it's not an incredible computer. People are merely questioning the choices, especially as the ibook becomes more and more similar. Why, exactly (my first question) is the gpu/screen of the 12" not as good as the other powerbooks? There is no explanation. It is a choice.

Please remember that most of the people here either have a powerbook or want one, so saying that we're not interested, or don't like the product, that does come off as discourteous.

Milkman, you're right, it's a brilliant computer. If the people speculating are right, and it's discontinued, i'm going to buy one of the older ones right away.

poocat.

[hldan]

Originally posted by poocat:
However, you're doing it in a pretty intense fashion that attempts to depict him as the only person to ever think this way, which isn't true.

It is simply a fact that the 12" powerbook is between the ibooks and the powerbooks. It has more features than the first, and not as many as the later. This can't be disputed. In the 13" powerbook thread there's a link to a toshiba with a card slot. These things are not impossible, they are choices. No one is saying it's not an incredible computer. People are merely questioning the choices, especially as the ibook becomes more and more similar. Why, exactly (my first question) is the gpu/screen of the 12" not as good as the other powerbooks? There is no explanation. It is a choice.

Please remember that most of the people here either have a powerbook or want one, so saying that we're not interested, or don't like the product, that does come off as discourteous.

Milkman, you're right, it's a brilliant computer. If the people speculating are right, and it's discontinued, i'm going to buy one of the older ones right away.

poocat.

Thanks, really appreciated the backup!

[RT3434]

Nobody has mentioned the SCREEN. I'd gladly substitiute power for size for portablility but the screen is terrible. It really saddens me that Apple would try to market this as a 'professional' model.

[ibook_steve]

I don't understand complaints about the screen. What is wrong with it? I stare at mine all day and have no problems with it. It's smaller, but that's the point.

Steve

[hardcat1970]

Originally posted by ibook_steve:
I don't understand complaints about the screen. What is wrong with it? I stare at mine all day and have no problems with it. It's smaller, but that's the point.

Steve

the viewing angle is worse than the 15" and 17". Basically it is just an ibook screen.

But lately apple has added up more features on the ibook and so ibook has better value. And i do think apple has f**k up the 12" powerbook considering that the ibook has the ability to monitor spanning but apple decides to disable it.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by RT3434:
Nobody has mentioned the SCREEN. I'd gladly substitiute power for size for portablility but the screen is terrible. It really saddens me that Apple would try to market this as a 'professional' model.

agrees: the 12" Powerbook screen is AWFUL. (I have a 12" 1.3 g4 powerbook...the screen is pathetic in my opinion.)

Its a great computer other than the lousy screen though.

[ibook_steve]

Viewing angle? Why are you not looking at it straight on? Any other reasons why you don't like the screen?

Just curious.

Steve

[brettcamp]

As a former iBook owner who upgraded this summer to the 12" Powerbook, I have to agree that the new iBook revisions now make it hard to justify going for the 12" Powerbook over the 12" iBook.

Don't get me wrong -- I ADORE my Powerbook, and I needed DVI out (which the iBook lacks) because I really wanted a digital connection to an external monitor. But because of a good deal through my university, the price of the Powerbook was only $200 higher than the iBook (including the Airport card, which then was bundled only with the Powerbook, not the iBook; now it's bundled with the iBooks, too). I thought that was (barely) worth it for the double-sized hard disk, phenomenal keyboard, and DVI; the speed boost, better video card, etc. were of negligible value for my uses, though important to people who use it more for graphic intensive applications.

However, if I were facing the same choice now, in light of these revisions, I'd probably (and reluctantly, since the Powerbook is just a cooler machine!) go for another iBook instead. Particularly since the iBook has advantages of its own, like supposedly better airport range, battery life, and durability, plus the bundled software. I wouldn't call it a "miscue," just a short period in which, for whatever reasons, this iBook upgrade came earlier than the Powerbook's and put them temporarily too close together. Until last week, the price difference was arguably worth it, at least for some users.

I bet the next revision of the 12" Powerbook, even if not a G5, will include a few more features to distinguish it from the iBook. If nothing else, Apple ought to at least bundle the Powerbooks with more RAM than the iBooks. I don't see the need for a PC card slot, but a backlit keyboard (when that becomes technically feasible) would seem a logical pro feature. The 12" Powerbook certainly needs a boost now.

[hardcat1970]

Originally posted by ibook_steve:
Viewing angle? Why are you not looking at it straight on? Any other reasons why you don't like the screen?

Just curious.

Steve

it is easy to explain. Have you ever try to show something to your colleagues on the screen? when you are sitting in the middle, in front of the laptop, and they are standing by your side. They can't see the color/images that you are trying to show accurately because the 12" powerbook viewing angle is so poor.

My 17" studio display and the 15" & 17" powerbook doesn't suffer from this. And i thought the powerbook should stand for a "pro" features, right?

Also, i bought my revision b powerbook exactly 1 year ago, and now it is losing value since the entry level ibook only costs $999 and the ibook has faster chip, and almost identical features.

[ibook_steve]

I don't really mind turning the Powerbook. It's not really a huge effort. Also, if you must show stuff to other people, as I do only rarely, that's what big external monitors are for, which I have.

Steve

[hardcat1970]

Originally posted by ibook_steve:
I don't really mind turning the Powerbook. It's not really a huge effort. Also, if you must show stuff to other people, as I do only rarely, that's what big external monitors are for, which I have.

Steve

I don't think this topic is surrounding the display. It is the guy who thinks a powerbook should have "pro" features instead of having the ibook features and costs $600 more.

Anyway, i don't agree on every points he was making, but i do think the 12" display could be a little better. And also having backlit keyboard, and perhaps, pci card slot would make 12" powerbook a much better value.