[Dr.Michael]

Hello all,

someone contacted me over a newslist and suggested to interchange my 1 year old 12 inch/1GHz Powerbook with his 2 year old 15 inch/1Ghz Titanium Powerbook.

Well, although I really like my 12 inch Powerbook it causes neck problems when working for many hours (like I do sometimes).

What is most interesting for me (and thats why I post): I originally had the plan to use my 12 inch powerbook with an external display. That did not work because of the non stop fan noise it produces when its connected to an external display (I used a 20 inch cinema display).

How does that work with the 1GHz TiBook? Do the fans also run constantly with an external display connected? Does anyone know how the Ti fans are compared to the ones of the al book? Louder? Do they run more often?

Yes, and all general remarks are welcome (although I know I would trade USB2, ATA100, Bluetooth, 24X CDRW, CoreImage etc. against USB1, ATA66, void, 8X CDRW, 64MB VRAM but no Core Image).

I am tempted mainly because of the screen (which is brand new btw.).

[audvidsvs]

I have been using my 12"PB with a Sharp 17" widescreen LCD monitor/TV for the last few weeks and it is interesting to say the least.
I also am using a TiBook as a desktop in the same room so I can speak directly from experience to your question.

It depends entirely upon your needs I think.
I have the 12" for travelling really and it is much easier to take with me than the Ti.
It also is great having the monitor spanning with the LCD to expand the desktop.
I like watching TV on the PIP and browsing on the big LCD while working in Excel on the 12".
On the other hand it is easier to just leave the desktop as the desktop and the portable as the portable if you can afford the luxery of two computers.
So while I really like the idea I can't see me getting rid of the Ti just yet.
In a practical way the screen on the Ti is just so much better than the 12" but I always worried I would break the Ti while using it outside my office.

The 12" is so easy to throw in a bag and not even consider not brining it along all day. I think I will keep both.

You just have to decide what your priorities are as we each have different needs. They are both great machines.

[Dr.Michael]

Originally posted by audvidsvs:

I also am using a TiBook as a desktop in the same room so I can speak directly from experience to your question.

Can you report on the fan noise of the Ti compared to the Aluminium Powerbook?
Does the fan run very often
1. with the Ti as standalone
2. with the Ti connected to an external display

[audvidsvs]

The only time the fan in my Ti runs at all is when it is really warm in the summer.
I have the 667DVI-Ti and I got it exactly because I had heard that the fans would run constantly on the faster models.
To me it was not worth the extra speed for the noise and heat. I have 1gig of Ram in the Ti and it feels fairly snappy.

I will also say I heard that the 12" would run the fans a lot with an external monitor but I have not really noticed any difference whether the exernal display is in use or not.
I also just bumped this one to 1.25gig of Ram and heard that this too would make it run hotter.Again this is not my experience so far.

I think if I had to choose one setup I would keep the 12" and the external display.

Again that is just me.

[amazing]

Have you considered keeping the 12" with an external monitor and getting a supposedly "whisper-quiet" USB cooling device? Antec makes one, and they list a quiet dB rating.

http://www.antec-inc.com/pro_details...p?ProdID=75004

[Dr.Michael]

Thank you for your tips.
I don't have an external display. I just thought it was a good idea, because I liked to have a big screen for dvds. But as things were uncomfortable with the 12 inch pb (fan noise and bad dvd quality because the single pixels became visible on the 20 inch display) I did not use the external any more.

My ideal is to have no external at all. I hate cluttered desks (or to be precise, my desks are cluttered with books and sheets of paper). And I am very mobile.

But thats the all time problem. The 12 inch is perfect for being mobile, but its second rate at the desk. TiBook is good at the desk but a little bit too wide and flimsy to carry it around often.

I'll give it a try and have a look at the Ti. Then I will decide.
Isn't there anyone who can compare the 1GHz Ti with the 12 inch powerbook? I also heard the 667MHz machine runs cooler that the 1Ghz, like you mentioned audvidsvs.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Dr.Michael:
Isn't there anyone who can compare the 1GHz Ti with the 12 inch powerbook?

I own a 12" 1GHz PowerBook, a 20" ACD and I used a 800MHz Ti for three weeks (replacement machine). Fan noise is certainly worse on the 12" because the fan will come on as soon as you use it with the external display regardless of the CPU/GPU/HD load. The Ti's fan came on less, even when used in closed-lid mode. The Ti fan only came on when there was heavy load (games, non-stop HD thrashing for an hour or so, etc...). When both have their fans running at full speed noise is comparable - I wouldn't say one's fan is louder than the other's.

The Ti is not very portable compared to the 12", but the display is better by a long run (colors, angle, size). I love my 12" + ACD setup; it's great at the desk, but it's also ultra-portable when on the road. But I hate fan noise. If Apple doesn't get rid of constant fan noise (even with zero load) due to an attached ACD, I will actually buy a 15" Al when the next rev gets announced (hopefully at or soon after MWSF).

Was willste denn sonst noch so wissen?

[Dr.Michael]

Originally posted by Simon:

Was willste denn sonst noch so wissen?

Danke, das is schon ne Menge!
Your german has become great during your stay here. That was exactly the info I was looking for - thanks a lot.

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Dr.Michael:
How does that work with the 1GHz TiBook? Do the fans also run constantly with an external display connected? Does anyone know how the Ti fans are compared to the ones of the al book? Louder? Do they run more often?

I can confirm the fans being louder than any of the albooks, and they run pretty much constantly once it gots hot.

And if it's a new screen, you would do well to get something to protect it, as the keys will leave marks on the screen.

These are the two big drawbacks of the TiBook: the heat/fan issue and the screen touching the keyboard when closed. There's a reason they were both addressed in future models.

That said I enjoy my 1 ghz TiBook very much. It suits my needs perfectly, and, having AppleCare, I intend to have it at least another year if not two.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Dr.Michael:
That was exactly the info I was looking for - thanks a lot.

You're very welcome.

I forgot to mention build quality: IMHO the Al Books are built with much more care to detail. The keyboard doesn't touch the screen, the case scratches less, etc. You certainly can see that the Al Books were designed after the Ti.

[iREZ]

The 1GHz Ti has draw backs as well as strengths compared to the 12" Rev B Alu.

Draw backs:
No Airport Extreme
Lousy AP reception
Screen touching keyboard
Paint chipping
No audio in (correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is right)
Lousy keyboard
Can only be upgraded to 1Gig of RAM (12" can be upped to 1.25)
Weak hinges

Strengths:
User replaceable HD
Larger/Better screen
L3 cache
All the ports in the back

I know I havent hit all the strengths and drawbacks but those are the things I see when I compare the two. Regardless to what PB you choose your going to have neck problems if you don't have the correct posture when using your 'book for long periods of time. Realize that the screen is connected to the keyboard and it will always be that way, where as compared to an external display the screen is a couple inches higher than your keyboard, I think if you get an external keyboard and place the PB (either model) on an iCurve or a couple of textbooks and I believe that will lessen the stress on your neck a ton.

[Simon]

iREZ, nice comparison.

IIRC the 1GHz did already have audio in. The Ti PowerBook got audio-in with the transition from 'Gigabit' to 'DVI' models.

Yep, confirmation here: Gigabit, DVI

[paully dub]

Originally posted by iREZ:

Draw backs:
No Airport Extreme
Lousy AP reception
Screen touching keyboard
Paint chipping
No audio in (correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is right)
Lousy keyboard
Can only be upgraded to 1Gig of RAM (12" can be upped to 1.25)
Weak hinges

Those are known issues. not every TiBook has hinge problems or paintchipping. The keyboard isn't so bad. I kinda prefer the black and white contrast, and the sharper edges to the keys.

I've never had an issue with airport reception. I usually get one bar less than my gf's g4 ibook, which ain't bad. Never needed AE.

The RAM is an issue though. It'll be a big factor in my upgrading to a new pb. But I'm doing ok with 768 mb, saving that last little boost for when things start seeming slow.

All in all, I'd advise against the trade, unless the bigger screen is a deciding factor. And the TiBook is slightly thinner than the AlBook, but it's not really a factor as they'll both go in a sleave, most likely.

[iREZ]

Originally posted by: paully dub

Those are known issues.

I know that's why I've mentioned them.

[Dr.Michael]

Ok guys, problem solved. The TiBook owner who wanted to exchange Powerbooks has made up his mind and will keep his TiBook.

Anyway, it was interesting to find out that mac quality has evolved. There are many things in the Alu generation that are indeed ahead of TiBook technology (USB, ATA, Airport + AP reception, build quality and all the other things you have written). Although I won't bet on the "only 1Gig of Ram" statement. Apple always gives "(available Ram chip sizes) * (number of slots)" as Ram limit. The internal structure can adress more.

Well and the not user replacable drive is something that has evolved in the backward direction. A door in the bottom of the books to access the drive would be a great enhancement.

Did I mention that I once had a 500MHz TiBook (I used it for 2.5 years)? I think there are problems with this machine and there are "problems" :o).

Problems that are no real problems are keyprints on the display. I developed the habit to put a piece of silk between keyboard and display -> problem solved.

A more serious problem are the hinges. But a drop of oil every now and then makes the lid open easily and thus minimizes the stress for the hinges. But this is only possible if you own the TiBook from the beginning. Pre owned TiBook with an unknown history can really have bad hinges.

The most - well not serious but annoying problem is the paint chipping. I always put my TiBook into a neoprene sleeve and then carried it in my backpack or in my Samsonite overnight case. Nonetheless after 2 years the edges of the hinges were not perfect any more and I am sure after one more year the white paint would have been removed here or there.

And the TiBook feels less tough than the Alu Books. I don't know if it really is more flimsy. When I first had a Pismo in my hand I thought "oh my god, this one will break soon". But no, it was indestructible.

But iRez is right I think. The neck trouble will not be solved with a TiBook. In my office I use a Thinkpad with an iCurve and an external keyboard. This solved the neck and back problems at once.

Thanks again for your help and the discussion. This is one of the great things of the mac community

[Dr.Michael]

I am back. The question Ti vs. 12 inch Al did not let me go.

So I bought a 887 MHz TiBook to use it for a while and find out the main differences.

Result:
My 12 inch/1GHz powerbook won the contest, no doubts are left.

Why this?
Three main reasons that we did not talk about.
One are the fans of the TiBook. They run MUCH more frequently compared to my 12 inch. Same work, same room temperature. The Ti has two fans and they are in general as lound as the one fan of the aluminium powerbook. But the fans of the Ti run constantly when the battery is charged.

Two is the keyboard. I did not mistype that often since I sold my own old 500MHz TiBook. On the Aluminium Powerbook I rarely mistype at all. The reason is not only the spongy keyboard of the TiBook. It is the palmrest that is uncomfortable. The edge of the Ti is where I lay down my arms. It has to be used with an external keyboard.
On the Aluminium Powerbook this is no problem at all because it is smaller.

Three: The TiBook is huge if you used the 12 inch powerbook for a while. I cannot imagine to carry it around any more.

Well, the display of the TiBook compared to the Aluminium powerbook is incredibly great. But in everyday use the 12 inch display is sufficient and thus the disadvantages of the TiBook are dominating.

I sold the TiBook yesterday and made 50 Euros. It was a cheap test

[brettcamp]

Thanks for that last post. I've been wondering what to do when my wife upgrades her 1 GB TiBook to a G5 or whatever the next generation Powerbook is. I assumed I'd sell my 1.25 GB 12" AlBook and inherit hers, and use it with my external monitor. But your post is making me reconsider....

I don't carry my Powerbook around that much, and most of the usage is with an external keyboard, so that's probably not a big issue, nor is weight. That said, when I've had to use her TiBook keyboard, I've hated it, compared to either my external keyboard or the wonderful 12" PB keyboard. I haven't typed on it enough to consider the palm rest issue -- will try that out.

About the fans/heat: were you using the TiBook on a stand (I have an iCurve) to help with air circulation?

[Dr.Michael]

Originally posted by brettcamp:

About the fans/heat: were you using the TiBook on a stand (I have an iCurve) to help with air circulation?

No I don't use an iCurve. I like to work on the Powerbook directly.
If you have both machines in your house you have all the time you need to check which one suits you best.

[brettcamp]

You're assuming my wife ever leaves her Powerbook! But yeah, I'll try it out more whenever she decides to upgrade. It'll probably be at least a year; she's very happy with it.