[salgiza]

I have decided to buy a Powerbook as soon as it includes iLife 05 with it (I hope that with a bit of luck it will also include better hardware ).
The thing is, I've read in many posts in this forum that people recomend getting an AppleCare Protection Plan for the Powerbook. However, in Spain it costs 428€ ($554) and I wasn't quite sure whether it was worth it.
I searched about it on the net and... Do you want to hear something funny? The European Union agreed two years ago that computer equipement, when bought for personal use, must have a minimum of a two year warranty. Most EU countries (if not all) have already passed a law accordingly (in Spain it applies since September 2003). This means that, although Apple says that Powerbooks only have a one-year warranty, that only applies if it's for business use.
Soooo... this basically means that, if I buy a Powerbook in Spain, for myself, and I pay 428€ for AppleCare, I'm paying 200$ more than what I would pay in the USA... for one year less!!

Now, the questions:
Does anybody know wether Apple plans to do anything about this? (Or where could I go to ask, I didn't find any emails in www.apple.es). I wouldn't mind considering it if they offered two extra years (four years of warranty), or if they offered a reduced price for just one extra year.

Has anybody had the experience using their warranty during that second year that Apple tries to ignore?

P.S. This is my first post. Hi to all!

Salva.

[Fiete5401]

I'm from Germany and I'm very interested in this too:
The law says that 'new' products need to have a TWO year warranty.
Refurbished products need to have a one year warranty.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Fiete5401:
I'm from Germany and I'm very interested in this too:
The law says that 'new' products need to have a TWO year warranty.
Refurbished products need to have a one year warranty.

This is NOT true.

Warranty is entirely voluntary. The mandatory two years is "Gewährleistung" ("guarantee"), which means the manufacturer must repair product defects within that time; however, it is YOUR responsibility to convince them that the defect existed at the time of purchase (i.e. within the first six months). This is rather difficult.

With Applecare, or any extended warranty, the case is clear: If it breaks with no evidence of abuse or carelessness, they fix it.

-s*

[Fiete5401]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Warranty is entirely voluntary. The mandatory two years is "Gewährleistung" ("guarantee"), which means the manufacturer must repair product defects within that time;

Ok, but why is Apple not forced to offer these two years of Gewährleistung/guarantee?
Every other product I can buy comes with this guarantee.

[salgiza]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
This is NOT true.

Warranty is entirely voluntary. The mandatory two years is "Gewährleistung" ("guarantee"), which means the manufacturer must repair product defects within that time; however, it is YOUR responsibility to convince them that the defect existed at the time of purchase (i.e. within the first six months). This is rather difficult.

With Applecare, or any extended warranty, the case is clear: If it breaks with no evidence of abuse or carelessness, they fix it.

-s*

According to the explanation of AppleCare that appears on www.apple.es , it only covers what a "guarantee" covers. Because of the way that law works, at least in Spain, if my Powerbook broke after one year, and there was no evidence of abuse or carelessness, as you say, any Judge would force Apple to repair my laptop (because if they can't prove I broke it, it means it was faulty).
As it is now, it looks like the only difference between having AppleCare or not, is the fact that Apple may try to force you to resort to Justice, before getting your machine repaired. That's not very nice, and it just looks like a way to try to sell us their overpriced AppleCare product

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Fiete5401:
Ok, but why is Apple not forced to offer these two years of Gewährleistung/guarantee?
Every other product I can buy comes with this guarantee.

What on Earth makes you think they are exempt?

Every Apple product comes with two years' Gewährleistung. (I work in computer retail.)

And no, AppleCare is not simply Guarantee/Gewährleistung. You do not need to prove that it was a pre-existing condition with AppleCare, nor do you have to pay for transport cost - BOTH ways. You have WORLDWIDE warranty, phone support, and usually shipping taken care of. If something breaks, it's repaired - no burden of proof, no discussion.

-s*

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by salgiza:
According to the explanation of AppleCare that appears on www.apple.es , it only covers what a "guarantee" covers. Because of the way that law works, at least in Spain, if my Powerbook broke after one year, and there was no evidence of abuse or carelessness, as you say, any Judge would force Apple to repair my laptop (because if they can't prove I broke it, it means it was faulty).

No, that is a warranty.

The guarantee is exactly the opposite: Unless YOU can prove that you DIDN'T break it (i.e. that it was a manufacturing defect), they don't have to do anything.

Good luck with that.

(As mentioned, you still need to pay for all additional costs - shipping, storage, packing, etc.)

-s*

[sgb]

the apple care price in europe sucks. plain and simple. i recently bought an ibook (in the states) and took it back to germany. i don't have applecare yet, but might buy it before my 1 year warranty is over to extend coverage for anotehr 2 years. the nice thing with laptops is, that the warranty is valid *worldwide*, same is true for applecare.

therefore, there shouldn't be a problem to buy applecare for laptops in the states which is way cheaper anyway. amazon.com accepts international credit cards, all you need is a friend/family in the states who will forward the package to you.

[Jens Peter]

I'm also buying a powerbook when new machines are released.
I read the AppleCare documents, and found that it would be a waste of money.

As already mentioned, we have two years right to claim compensation for defective products. What AppleCare gives me, is one year extra, tree years in all. And thats then only if it's damages I haven't produced.

I will say no thanks to AppleCare.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Jens Peter:
I'm also buying a powerbook when new machines are released.
I read the AppleCare documents, and found that it would be a waste of money.

As already mentioned, we have two years right to claim compensation for defective products. What AppleCare gives me, is one year extra, tree years in all. And thats then only if it's damages I haven't produced.

I will say no thanks to AppleCare.

My Powerbook's slot-loading Superdrive died physically a couple of weeks after the regular warranty would have expired. Brought it in, got it fixed.

Now my hard drive is making funny noises (after two years). I'll be bringing it in, get it fixed.

Neither of those cases would have been covered without AppleCare; the Superdrive one *possibly*, but not without a lengthy battle and extra cost to me.

AppleCare has already proven its worth for me. I will never buy a laptop without some sort of extended warranty. Period.

-s*

[Pismo2001]

Originally posted by salgiza:
The thing is, I've read in many posts in this forum that people recomend getting an AppleCare Protection Plan for the Powerbook. However, in Spain it costs 428€ ($554) and I wasn't quite sure whether it was worth it.


Soooo... this basically means that, if I buy a Powerbook in Spain, for myself, and I pay 428€ for AppleCare, I'm paying 200$ more than what I would pay in the USA... for one year less!!

Now, the questions:
Does anybody know wether Apple plans to do anything about this? (Or where could I go to ask, I didn't find any emails in www.apple.es). I wouldn't mind considering it if they offered two extra years (four years of warranty), or if they offered a reduced price for just one extra year.

Has anybody had the experience using their warranty during that second year that Apple tries to ignore?

P.S. This is my first post. Hi to all!

Salva.

Hola Salva,

I'm also in Spain (Granada). I bought a Pismo just after the Titanium were announced and I still have it. I did not buy Applecare which I considered a rip-off.

Everybody acknowledges that the Pismo is very robust, actually that's the engineering prowess of fitting everything in a one inch thick enclosure that gave me doubts about the longevity of the Ti (I have done mechanical and electronic design myself).

Current models are not as tough as the Pismo although I believe that the Al are better than the Ti in this respect.

The Pismo is by far the best machine I have ever had, it is still running extremely well after 4 years of daily usage. I added Airport, exchanged the original 10GB disk for a 30GB, and increased RAM from 64MB to 1GB. The only problem is that the DVD drive is becoming very selective about what it accepts (the only frequent weakness of the machine if I believe the forums).

Right now, I am pondering whether upgrading again the disk or buying a new 15 o 17" PB. One of the problems I have
is that Linux is not running as well on newer PB (I dual boot OSX 10.3.7/Linux 2.6.10 because I write code for Linux on embedded PowerPC systems): specifically Airport Extreme is not supported because the documentation of the relevant chips is not publically available, and it's unlikely to change.

If I end up buying a new PB (the alternative is upgrading the Pismo disk and buying a Mac Mini), I certainly won't buy AppleCare and I'll bet that my machine will work without problems for 3 years.

[jindrich]

hey salva que tal,

dont just think about it. yes, it's a ripoff, too expensive, even more in spain, but buy it. you'll regret it later if you dont.

i've been using several mac laptops as of late and had problems with 2 of them (may be just bad luck). with applecare you're covered for free repairs and free shipping -as long as it's not something you broke on purpose, but you're not going to throw the laptop out of the window in a nerve atttack because it doesnt run Windows ;-)

just consider that if for whatever reason the screen dies, it will cost you twice what apple asks applecare for.

just do that, get the powerbook and wait. maybe you'll sell it before a year to trade it for a new one (who nows). but just before the 1st year expires, if you decide to keep it, buy applecare. you'll sleep better for 2 years more.

i do

buena suerte.

[angelmb]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
...nor do you have to pay for transport cost - BOTH ways.

-s*

This is anymore true, at least in Spain, I have sent my 17 PowerBook to repair under Apple Care and I had to pay the transport cost. Having in mind how expensive AppleCare is, that is not funny to be honest.

[salgiza]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
My Powerbook's slot-loading Superdrive died physically a couple of weeks after the regular warranty would have expired. Brought it in, got it fixed.

(...)

Neither of those cases would have been covered without AppleCare; the Superdrive one *possibly*, but not without a lengthy battle and extra cost to me.
-s*

In fact, this is what really pisses me off. I know that I will get a better service if I buy AppleCare, but I can't believe that they aren't openly telling that their products have a two year guarantee, and thus pressing/tricking people (many don't know about this law) into buying AppleCare, believing that they only have a one-year guarantee.

Now that you have explained to me the diference between AppleCare's warranty, and the normal guarantee, I can see that, at least, they are not directly selling something that the customers already had(!). However, I still can't believe that they want to make me pay $200 more than in the US. And in the US, you are also getting an extended guarantee you didn't have!!

Originally posted by angelmb:
This is anymore true, at least in Spain, I have sent my 17 PowerBook to repair under Apple Care and I had to pay the transport cost. Having in mind how expensive AppleCare is, that is not funny to be honest.

Jindrich, you nearly convinced me to buy it!. But if, as angelmb says, I have to pay for transport costs, that's it. I mean, they try to hide from the customers that they already have a two year guarantee, they don't include shipping costs, and they want to charge me $554 for that? Next thing I'll know, someone at Apple Spain will be asking
me for sexual favours if I want my PB repaired!!

Well, I guess I'll wait until the original one-year warranty is about to expire and then I'll decide. However, unless they change their policy, or their prices, I doubt I'll get it. $554 is nearly 25% of what the 15" PB costs! And that's without including the transport costs, which won't be cheap. If the PB breaks during the second year, well, then I'll have to sue Apple if they don't repair it .

Thanks to all, btw!!

[salgiza]

Originally posted by sgb:
the apple care price in europe sucks. plain and simple. i recently bought an ibook (in the states) and took it back to germany. i don't have applecare yet, but might buy it before my 1 year warranty is over to extend coverage for anotehr 2 years. the nice thing with laptops is, that the warranty is valid *worldwide*, same is true for applecare.

therefore, there shouldn't be a problem to buy applecare for laptops in the states which is way cheaper anyway. amazon.com accepts international credit cards, all you need is a friend/family in the states who will forward the package to you.

I thought about that. Not only would I get a cheaper AppleCare, but the PB would also be much cheaper!
Unfortunately, I need a Spanish keyboard in the laptop (no, the Spanish keyboard they sell in US is not the same).

[angelmb]

Originally posted by salgiza:
...But if, as angelmb says, I have to pay for transport costs,...

Yes friend, that is the Apple Spain new years resolution, what a bunch of morons!, past 28 november I sent the PowerBook to AppleCare because it didn't read the RAM modules rightly,I told them, it is a motherboard failure, they didn't want to hear me, so they just swapped one RAM module. By then, transport costs were zero, they sent me the typical Apple Care cartoonish box to ship the PowerBook. Well, so the PowerBook is not able to check the RAM again, so I tried the RAM with another Al PowerBook, RAM was OK, Apple Hardware Test show me a mother/logic board failure, Apple Care time again, but I must pay the transport LOL what a great service they are providing to me !!! So, away Apple Care talks about a RAM failure, oh great, I even sent them some printed picts of the Apple Hardware Test diagnosis, what a waste of time...

Luckily they did a loop test, they test the computer on a loop of 50 test, at test number 48, bingo!, they got a mo-board failure, so they are going to replace the mo-board of my !7 inches PowerBook.

Sure, without Apple Care I must to pay a huhge amount of money just to have the mo-board being replaced, but anyway, Apple Care is a rip-off.

I am thinking on sell the 17 inches PowerBook with its AppleCare of course once I get it back. I don't need a laptopt anymore, come back to desktop computers.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by angelmb:
Luckily they did a loop test, they test the computer on a loop of 50 test, at test number 48, bingo!, they got a mo-board failure, so they are going to replace the mo-board of my !7 inches PowerBook.

Sure, without Apple Care I must to pay a huhge amount of money just to have the mo-board being replaced, but anyway, Apple Care is a rip-off.

Do you have any idea how much a 17" Powerbook replacement mobo costs + installation?

Apparently not, if you still think you got ripped off.

[angelmb]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Do you have any idea how much a 17" Powerbook replacement mobo costs + installation?

Apparently not, if you still think you got ripped off.

somehitng like 1500 euro?, it was not my purpose to blame on them that way, but this is my second PowerBook, I had a Pismo previously, it has a display failure plus a dvd rom died, by then I have no AppleCare so I just got / purchased the 17" Al, with the lesson on mind I have no doubt about getting AppleCare for the Al, that is the issue, I must have two years of peace of mind and not have to pay such an expensive amount to get covered another year, all that provided by my bad first experience with PowerBooks, so as I have said, going back to desktops PowerMac

Spheric Harlot, sure AppleCare covers me about the huge amount of money this failure was going to cost me, but it is a really anoying thing that such expensive computers are not that 'solid'. The thing that totally f***ed me was to have to pay the transpost cost twice, I thing I was really fully covered

[Pismo2001]

Originally posted by angelmb:

I am thinking on sell the 17 inches PowerBook with its AppleCare of course once I get it back. I don't need a laptopt anymore, come back to desktop computers.

Please tell me if you decide to sell it. I might be interested, depending of course on features (RAM/DISK/CPU/BT/AE/whatever), price, and general state of the machine.

And I really want one with a spanish keyboard: I'm a french guy living in Spain but I can't stand french keyboards, since it's impossible to even properly type french on them.

[jaknudsen]

In Norway, we have 5 years of "warranty" from machine faults - and it's the manufacturer that has to prove that the fault wasn't there at time of purchase.

[tae667]

Originally posted by jaknudsen:
In Norway, we have 5 years of "warranty" from machine faults - and it's the manufacturer that has to prove that the fault wasn't there at time of purchase.

Same thing in Finland. I had to force Apple once to repair my machine which was out of Apple provided warranty. It was pretty annoying that Apple knew that they had to repair it, but they waited for me to contact consumer officials which forced Apple to act.