[MAC-ALEX]

I'm really disappointed with Apple PB line, they have a choice of two processors now from IBM and Motorola that could be used in PowerBooks and they won't use it. Anyone understand their politics? Brighter screens and better battery life is great, but I want upgrade my PowerBook G4 1.25Ghz because it's almost 2 years old, but I don't see the reason to get a 1.67Ghz PowerBook just with higher resolution and with 5% speed bump, after 2 years it's not fair.

[iomatic]

<cut-out-bit-about-return-on-investment-soapbox,etc.> It's a 33% increase. Vote with your money.

[iomatic]

Double-Post.

[MAC-ALEX]

Originally Posted by iomatic

<cut-out-bit-about-return-on-investment-soapbox,etc.> It's a 33% increase. Vote with your money.

Give me break, Mhz is not equal to the speed, so in the real world the speed bump is about 5-7%

[iomatic]

Fine.

Whatever.

What do you want from this board?

OK, I don't mean to sound snarkey. What exactly is the question you have in your post?

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by iomatic

Fine.

Whatever.

What do you want from this board?

OK, I don't mean to sound snarkey. What exactly is the question you have in your post?

Be happy with your purchase and don't feel the need to defend it.

[madmanXwater]

With the PowerBook, "That's just the way it is". They are very nice machines as you know, but Apple is well aware of the performance problems. That's one of the big reasons for the change to Intel chips. We just have to live with it for a while.

I have a 17" 1.33 PowerBook but use my new HP zd8225 3.2 P4 for 99% of my work because I need the performance, it's 2-4 times the speed of the PowerBook. I'm waiting until Intel PowerBooks are out, and are proven to be much faster than what I have before I buy another PowerBook. I feel your pain but there is nothing we can do about it.

Mike

[mrmister]

"I'm really disappointed with Apple PB line..."

That's because the line is currently very disappointing. Things will change with the Mactels, hopefully.

[Randman]

The PPCs are basically EOLs, at least for laptops. A year from now, you'll be estactic over the new offerings.

[SoCal_BigFoot]

Originally Posted by Randman

The PPCs are basically EOLs, at least for laptops. A year from now, you'll be estactic over the new offerings.

It's just hard to believe in just ONE year everything will be great. Powerbooks didn't change
in 2 years, changed just a bit in 4. Look how cheap Apple are with other components.
I understand there is a big shortage of fast processors, but that doesn't force them to use
the same GPU, the same 512MB of RAM, etc. They "could" make them much more interesting
if they wanted. Now you are telling me that there is a miracle coming and in ONE year
the Powerbook will be the fastest, most stable, with the fastest GPU and the best screen laptop
on the market. I don't believe in miracles. It will be a long process, I think at least two more
years until we have something decent. Quite a shame.

Look how much energy people are spending online hoping for a Powerbook G5, then anything really.
It's been at least three years (for ever really) those hopes for something good have been flying around.
And here we are - another "update".

[Randman]

The Mactels will indeed be awesome. Apple will want a hit and everything on just about every Mac-centric site points to that. Reportedly, one reason why the update was so meager was because Apple has the vast majority of its engineers working on the next PB.

Offer a lighter, thinner PB with a major increase in battery time? Good.
Offer a new case design (Apple has several patents for laptop design including the built-in iSight)? Good.
Offer greater Ghz of power? Good.
And so on.

[Fusion]

Get over it?

They don't care about you and how happy you are with their line. They care about the shareholders, and obviously, what they are doing is making good profit for them and the shareholders are happy. That's just the simple facts of life. Sorry.

[alphasubzero949]

Do we need another thread on this?

[chrisutley]

Mac users were friendly, creative, cool people once. If there are any Mac users like that left, they sure as hell aren't on this perpetual pissing contest of a message forum.

[mduell]

The lack of HD screens really surprises me.
PC OEMs have had 15" HD screens for over 2 years and 17" HD screens for over one. This is the "Year of HD" and Apple throws WSXGA+ in the 17".

[audiophilia]

Not just be contrary, but I am so in love with my new 15" PB. The build quality, philosophy and OS are just so much better than anythying I used during my 15 years in the wilderness with Windows...even if it screws up, it has a great warranty and Applecare. Look at the resale, too, compared with anything PC...

[aristobrat]

audiophilia, I'm in the same boat. Seems people getting a PB for the first time are more apt to be happy with the latest round of upgrades vs. previous PB owners who are dying to upgrade.

I just picked up a new 15" PB and I'm pretty sure it'll last me until Rev. B of the Mactel laptops. Not saying I have the willpower to NOT buy a Rev A, but ...

[pete]

I think one thing the powerbooks have going for them is that they are MUCH more than the sum of their parts. When you buy a powerbook, even the arguably 'low powered' ones that Apple is producing now, you're getting something that is worth more anything else: solid stability and a computer that works smoothly and without interfering in your life the way windows laptops do. We might feel that they are underpowered compared with PC laptops, but all the little stuff comes together in a package that I feel beats any PC laptop out there. Are the latest versions worth upgrading to? Probably not for most people who have a aluminum powerbook. Are they a good powerbook for a new buyer? I'd say they're pretty great, even as they are.

I agree that the new intel powerbooks will have to be incredibly attractive, but I wouldn't touch one for at least 2 generations. There ARE going to be lots of quirks in this transition, both in terms of hardware and software and it would be naive to think otherwise.

I think for anybody who needs an Apple laptop today, the current crop represent a mature, speedy and, above all, harmonious blend of power and function.

That's my sales pitch.

[mrmister]

"When you buy a powerbook, even the arguably 'low powered' ones that Apple is producing now, you're getting something that is worth more anything else: solid stability and a computer that works smoothly and without interfering in your life the way windows laptops do."

That's why right now I'd recommend an iBook or a used PowerBook to any sensible person.

[John123]

Originally Posted by mrmister

"When you buy a powerbook, even the arguably 'low powered' ones that Apple is producing now, you're getting something that is worth more anything else: solid stability and a computer that works smoothly and without interfering in your life the way windows laptops do."

That's why right now I'd recommend an iBook or a used PowerBook to any sensible person.

So you're saying that anyone who wants a PowerBook and buys one new (not used) is not sensible?

[mrmister]

"So you're saying that anyone who wants a PowerBook and buys one new (not used) is not sensible?"

In my opinion; yes. If I had to buy today, except for very unusual circumstances I would buy recently used or refurbished or I would get an iBook and an iMac.

[John123]

Originally Posted by mrmister

"So you're saying that anyone who wants a PowerBook and buys one new (not used) is not sensible?"

In my opinion; yes. If I had to buy today, except for very unusual circumstances I would buy recently used or refurbished or I would get an iBook and an iMac.

That's kind of funny. I sold my PowerBook 1.5Ghz a week ago. Through various pieces of wheeling and dealing, I'll be trading up to the new PowerBook 1.67Ghz for a net profit of $35.

Care to explain why you'd get a used PowerBook when, if you're a savvy consumer who uses rebates and such, you can get a new one for only a fractional amount more -- and one that hasn't been used and might have a suspect repair history?

[Fusion]

John, I am in the same position as you. The new ones from the store cost less than used ones out there lol. What an idiotic thing to say.

[chabig]

Originally Posted by MAC-ALEX

Give me break, Mhz is not equal to the speed, so in the real world the speed bump is about 5-7%

I'd expect the speed bump to be at least 33% and probably more due to the faster hard drive and memory bus.

Chris

[John123]

Originally Posted by chabig

I'd expect the speed bump to be at least 33% and probably more due to the faster hard drive and memory bus.

Chris

Well, my friend, you'd expect wrong.

The hard drive isn't faster, unless you get the 7200rpm BTO configuration. Even then, it's unknown so far what 7200rpm drive is used (there are differences across models), and the benefit is not "system-wide" but rather only when doing I/O intensive activity. OS X's paging schemes make it a little more important than it might have been once upon a time, but otherwise, unless you're actively pulling from disk (i.e., application load), it won't help you.

As for the memory -- as others have noted here, there's really no gain in the new memory architecture. The PC2-4200 will be running at 333Mhz, but the frontside bus is still 167Mhz, and the overall architecture is really not that different than the previous models. DDR2 was selected it seems for power savings rather than speed.

I've owned a ton of PowerBooks/laptops over the past four years -- going from a G3 (Pismo) at 400Mhz to a G4 at 550Mhz to a Rev C G4 at 667 Mhz to the final TiBook at 1Ghz, and most recently having bought and since sold the AlBook 1.5Ghz. The real boosts at the end of the day do come from processor changes and not the underlying memory and hard drive components. And it's not a strict percentage calculation either.

The upgrade from a 1.25Ghz machine to a 1.67Ghz machine will certainly be noticeable. 33% is an overestimate, but 5-7% is an underestimate. Somewhere in the middle sounds about right to me for day-to-day tasks.

[chabig]

OK. Forget about the memory and the hard drive. Why wouldn't the machine be 33% faster from the CPU alone? If the processor is running 33% more instructions using the same code, it should be faster, right, unless their is a bottleneck somewhere besides the CPU?

[John123]

Originally Posted by chabig

OK. Forget about the memory and the hard drive. Why wouldn't the machine be 33% faster from the CPU alone? If the processor is running 33% more instructions using the same code, it should be faster, right, unless their is a bottleneck somewhere besides the CPU?

No. There are a couple things at work.

1) If you look at your CPU usage -- Terminal, Activity Monitor, wherever -- you'll find it's not maxed out all the time. If your CPU usage were always at 100%, then you'd be closer to making your argument...but for times when your CPU usage is less than 100%, extra speed is probably not going to gain you as much.

2) There are other bottlenecks in the system. Disk IO -- not improved from the last revision as I noticed in my last post -- is a big one. Basic FSB architecture is another one (FSB has gotten only 33% boost in a few years now -- that's so sad). Still another is the GPU, which is also unchanged from the last revision and is nearly two years old from ATI.

These are two of the biggest things.

[hldan]

Originally Posted by madmanXwater

With the PowerBook, "That's just the way it is". They are very nice machines as you know, but Apple is well aware of the performance problems. That's one of the big reasons for the change to Intel chips. We just have to live with it for a while.

I have a 17" 1.33 PowerBook but use my new HP zd8225 3.2 P4 for 99% of my work because I need the performance, it's 2-4 times the speed of the PowerBook. I'm waiting until Intel PowerBooks are out, and are proven to be much faster than what I have before I buy another PowerBook. I feel your pain but there is nothing we can do about it.

Mike

Madman, I just have a question for you as to what type of apps are you using on your HP P4 notebook that the Powerbook can't do for you? The reason that I am asking is because you mention that you need performance and your 17" Powerbook is no slouch at 1.33Ghz.

[MAC-ALEX]

Looks like most of you just went away from the topic. I was asking, do you have some thoughts why Apple don't build faster powerbooks on the PPC if the Motorola and IBM relased new CPU's for mobile computers? I've been waiting for faster PowerBook a year ago, now it's almost two years that I own PB Al 1.25Ghz and it's not enough speed for me, I want to make and watch HD movies and want to be able to use final cut with the speed of G5, for most of you maybe you don't need CPU boost because you don't use complicated applications, but I would like to have a mobility and speed in my backpack.

[chabig]

Apple is already using the best PPC processors they can get. There isn't anything more in PPC. That's why they're switching to Intel.

[jaydon34]

I thought they sucked until I seen the screen. Now cmon apple same screen, same size and pop in an intel proccessor.

[MAC-ALEX]

Originally Posted by chabig

Apple is already using the best PPC processors they can get. There isn't anything more in PPC. That's why they're switching to Intel.

If they were using the best PowerPC processors in portables then I wouldn't complain.
They are able to put 970FX 1.8Ghz in PowerBook and also they are able to put 8641D in PowerBook as well, today's CPU in PowerBook's power dissipation over 30W on the Maximum performance and 8741D power dissipation less then 20W and 970FX running at 1.8Ghz power dissipation 22W maximum and at 2Ghz 29W, so they are really able to put faster CPU in the PowerBooks.

I just see clearly after this last presentation on 19 of Oct. that Apple is actually really want to become a software vendor only and make iPod's and iTablets and all this kind junk but leave PC hardware business. They are becoming MTV of the 21 century and gadget maker + of course MacOS X for all PC's

[iomatic]

You're making two assumptions: 1) that Apple wants to put a G5 or even a 7448 (even if they were available) in the PowerBook, and 2) they want to continue pouring their engineering into the PowerPC platform-- highly doubtful with the Intel platform coming. I would say you may see a 7448 in another revision, since they're pin-compatible with the current models -- and would require very modest adjustments to the 15" and 17" models -- before Intel goes live. Or not. Who knows? As been stated before, there are availability issues and more importantly, engineering issues.

For me, professionally, this is going to be fine, since I do all my work with a 12" and an external monitor, and a speed boost, higher resolution (than even the previous 15"), 7200rpm drive will be a massive improvement for me, and therefore worthwhile. I guess we need to know more about your particular needs before we can help answer you. Are you a 3D-modeling student, or in architecture? If so, perhaps it might be best to go with a PC-based machine, if your PowerBook is not servicing you now. Are you a professional losing money on jobs because you're too slow? I would then suggest getting a G5. What's the real purpose of your inquiry, because placing the best processors in the PowerBook has already been discussed exhaustively.

Are you simply looking to upgrade to have bragging rights? Then I suggest you buy a car.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by MAC-ALEX

Looks like most of you just went away from the topic. I was asking, do you have some thoughts why Apple don't build faster powerbooks on the PPC if the Motorola and IBM relased new CPU's for mobile computers? I've been waiting for faster PowerBook a year ago, now it's almost two years that I own PB Al 1.25Ghz and it's not enough speed for me, I want to make and watch HD movies and want to be able to use final cut with the speed of G5, for most of you maybe you don't need CPU boost because you don't use complicated applications, but I would like to have a mobility and speed in my backpack.

Cost-benefit analysis. It isn't worth the effort to put a better chip in if it won't get you many more sales.

Originally Posted by MAC-ALEX

They are able to put 970FX 1.8Ghz in PowerBook and also they are able to put 8641D in PowerBook as well, today's CPU in PowerBook's power dissipation over 30W on the Maximum performance and 8741D power dissipation less then 20W and 970FX running at 1.8Ghz power dissipation 22W maximum and at 2Ghz 29W, so they are really able to put faster CPU in the PowerBooks.

You're confusing marketing's typical TDP numbers with engineering's maximum power numbers.
PPC970fx burns a little over 30W at 1.6Ghz, and a little over 50W at 2.0Ghz. If you don't mind a 2" thick P4 style laptop then that will work, but it won't happen with the current case.

[MAC-ALEX]

Originally Posted by mduell

Cost-benefit analysis. It isn't worth the effort to put a better chip in if it won't get you many more sales.



You're confusing marketing's typical TDP numbers with engineering's maximum power numbers.
PPC970fx burns a little over 30W at 1.6Ghz, and a little over 50W at 2.0Ghz. If you don't mind a 2" thick P4 style laptop then that will work, but it won't happen with the current case.

All this power dissipation numbers from CPU's datasheet from IBM and Freescale web sites include the datasheet on the current CPU in PowerBooks.

[MAC-ALEX]

Originally Posted by iomatic

You're making two assumptions: 1) that Apple wants to put a G5 or even a 7448 (even if they were available) in the PowerBook, and 2) they want to continue pouring their engineering into the PowerPC platform-- highly doubtful with the Intel platform coming. I would say you may see a 7448 in another revision, since they're pin-compatible with the current models -- and would require very modest adjustments to the 15" and 17" models -- before Intel goes live. Or not. Who knows? As been stated before, there are availability issues and more importantly, engineering issues.

For me, professionally, this is going to be fine, since I do all my work with a 12" and an external monitor, and a speed boost, higher resolution (than even the previous 15"), 7200rpm drive will be a massive improvement for me, and therefore worthwhile. I guess we need to know more about your particular needs before we can help answer you. Are you a 3D-modeling student, or in architecture? If so, perhaps it might be best to go with a PC-based machine, if your PowerBook is not servicing you now. Are you a professional losing money on jobs because you're too slow? I would then suggest getting a G5. What's the real purpose of your inquiry, because placing the best processors in the PowerBook has already been discussed exhaustively.

Are you simply looking to upgrade to have bragging rights? Then I suggest you buy a car.

Yes, right probably I'll get myself a nice BMW with iPod in it and will enjoy my life with Pentium M in PC notebook with MacOS X running on it for a while.