[Ian_Bullock]

Hi,
I've got an ancient pismo, 500mhz, but still going strong and running tiger pretty fast for every day stuff. I recently put in a wireless pcmcia card, and it's given it a new lease of life! Recognises it as an airport extreme card, and I get brilliant reception on it.

So that got me a bit excited, and I went and got a slot-loading 8x superdrive from Fastmac, and upgraded the ram to 768MB. It took 5minutes to install with the expandable drive bays. It feels like a new machine! Do any of you, with your nice shiny powerbooks, think yours'll still be going strong in 6 years time?

I'm thinking of going crazy, against all economic sense, and shelling out for a daystar upgrade to a 550mhz G4, and a 7200rpm 100GB hard drive, and getting a newer brighter LCD, as the backlight's fading a little. Also, I can get two new batteries for it (7200mAh Newertech ones) with the whole lot coming to $600 by my reckoning. Do you guys think it's worth it for a fun project? I'd end up with a pismo with an 8x slot-loading superdrive, a G4 processor, 100GB 7200rpm hard drive, and 11hours battery life (with both batteries in the expansion bay. How's that for a six year old laptop. Only bottleneck would be the 8mb vram, which is lousy, and a fairly slow G4 processor.

Just thought I'd write an ode to the expandability of the laptops Apple used to make. Do you guys think the new one's have the same build quality? It kind of feels like the new ones are destined to become obsolete more quickly. Seems sad to think that Apple might be following down the road of the PC world: cheaper, disposable laptops - can't see any of today's laptops still being able to accomodate high-end features in 2012.

Anyway, just a thought. I'll look forwards to some responses - hopefully lots of indignant ones from people who love their albooks and tibooks.

Ian

[demibob]

my ibook is only about a year and a half old so i cant realy tell
it does feel very well made and i intend to keep it for the next five years
my old windows laptop was very slugish after two years and almost unusable by four
it broke on year five
only time will tell if my mac was truly built to last

[icruise]

The Pismo was a great machine for its time, and I still use mine daily for email and web browsing. But frankly I think it would be a mistake to invest much more money in it. Several years ago, I upgraded my processor to a G4, got a bigger hard drive, a CD-RW drive and some other things, but looking back on it, I think the money would have been better spent on (or saved for) a new computer. There are some things you just can't upgrade, and there's a lot to be said for having a new computer with a warranty and so forth. Even the cheapest portable that they're selling now will blow the Pismo away in terms of performance (especially if you wait and get one of the "MacBooks" that will likely be replacing the iBooks later this year.)

As for the build quality of the newer ones, I really think the Aluminum PowerBooks are the best ones Apple's ever made. They feel rock solid. And the iBooks are quite good too. My Pismo, on the other hand, has a wobbly screen and some cracks. Its DVD drive has died twice on me (and I've also lost a couple of hard drives, but I can't say that has anything to do with the design). On the other hand, the Pismo's design does make it much easier to swap out parts like that. It is true that the lack of expansion bays and so forth does limit future expandability a little, but by the time you really need to use an expansion bay to gain access to some new technology, you would probably be better served just getting a new computer.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

Hi,
I've got an ancient pismo, 500mhz, but still going strong and running tiger pretty fast for every day stuff. I recently put in a wireless pcmcia card, and it's given it a new lease of life! Recognises it as an airport extreme card, and I get brilliant reception on it.

Sell it on eBay and buy a MacBook Pro instead. In case you haven't noticed, it's now the 21st century.

[John123]

I'd argue it totally depends on what you want it for. If you want a mobile warrior machine, great for watching movies on inter-continental flights, and really basic web and word processing work on the go, with incredible battery life, then yeah...that's good. If you want firepower...well, as you noted, that's not this machine. I think you have to assess with yourself what it is you do with your computer and whether the tradeoffs are worth it.

[Jawbone54]

I dropped my 15" 1.67 GHz Powerbook into a volcano once on vacation. Still good.

[Ian_Bullock]

I don't know, I guess I was just thinking that maybe the focus with apple has moved too much to cheaper disposable laptops that are designed to become obsolete. However its probably a bit silly to be saying that when I'm sat here typing on a 6 year old laptop running the latest software (show me a pc that can do that), with some of the latest hardware (8x superdrive etc) installed. But I doubt that many of the aluminium powerbooks around now will be doing the same in 5 years time. I guess this isn't a problem if the plan is to upgrade to a new laptop every couple of years, but from what I understand, that isn't what apple used to be about. I've heard loads of stories about 6,7 year old laptops, and 8 or 9 year old beige G3s that can still run OS X. But how many people are still going to be using their titanium powerbooks in 2 or 3 years? They'll have fallen to pieces, and they're difficult to upgrade anyway, so they'll have been chucked out in favour of a new laptop. That's fine by me, but I was just interested to see if anyone else thought apple was going down the pc world route? I mean the new Macbook pro (thanks for your kind and well-thought response F1000) has no new defining technology attached to it (with the exception of the 3/4 express card slot) - one firewire 800, two usb slots, 4x superdrive - it seems like another step backwards in term of its longevity. Because once it's a slow laptop (when processor speeds have moved on etc) it won't have anything left to recommend it - no expandability, connectivity, upgradability etc. Anyone agree with me? Would anyone be interested in maybe a slightly larger powerbook (not obsessed about thinness), that connects to everything under the sun (two firewire 800s, two firewire 400s, e.sata, s-video, dvi, usb2), with upgradeable modular components, return of the daughtercard so the processor can be upgraded? I suppose if no-one would be interested in that, it makes sense that apple stopped making laptops like that. I just think its a shame, that's all - I'd pay more for a laptop that was future-proofed like that.

As for moving into the 21st century (F1000), I've got a powermac g5, I just use my powerbook more for everyday internet, word processing, itunes etc. A newer laptop would be a waste of money, as I've got all the power I need in my desktop.

[icruise]

From Apple's point of view, it makes no sense whatsoever to make a laptop where everything can be upgraded, since it would make them more complex to design, more difficult to make thin and light, it would cut into sales of new computers and they would get no share of the money that people spend on the upgrades -- it all goes to third party companies. But my point is that even when they did make more upgradeable computers, actually upgrading them often wasn't a good idea from a financial point of view. The Pismo is more upgradeable than current models, but many things (the screen, video card, bus speed, etc) are still unchangeable, which means that for most people it still makes more sense to buy a new computer.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

I don't know, I guess I was just thinking that maybe the focus with apple has moved too much to cheaper disposable laptops that are designed to become obsolete.

Disposable? Methinks you're smokin' the hookah.

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

However its probably a bit silly to be saying that when I'm sat here typing on a 6 year old laptop running the latest software (show me a pc that can do that), with some of the latest hardware (8x superdrive etc) installed.

I rarely use the internal optical drive if I can avoid it. I rip all of my multimedia to hard drives and could care less about 4x or 8x superdrive writing speeds. Read speed is what matters to me the most. I look forward to a 12" or 13" MacBook Pro with no internal optical drives whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

But I doubt that many of the aluminium powerbooks around now will be doing the same in 5 years time.

In five years, CPUs will be some fifteen times faster than they are now; laptop screens will be near photographic.

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

I guess this isn't a problem if the plan is to upgrade to a new laptop every couple of years, but from what I understand, that isn't what apple used to be about.

Computers aren't houses. There's no point in renovating them every few years just to keep a particular chassis. Like I said, you need to move into the 21st century. Laptops are so compact now that upgrading one is like upgrading a calculator: you just don't.

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

I mean the new Macbook pro (thanks for your kind and well-thought response F1000) has no new defining technology attached to it (with the exception of the 3/4 express card slot) - one firewire 800, two usb slots, 4x superdrive - it seems like another step backwards in term of its longevity.

You've got your priorities mixed up. I care little for the FireWire, USB, and 4x Superdrive: I care more about the screen, the CPU, and the videocard. Besides, 8 years from now, who knows whether FW, USB, or optical drives will still be around. 8 years ago, we were using SCSI, floppies, and ADB ports.

WiMAX and Bluetooth may eventually make USB and Firewire obsolete. If computers are always connected to a wireless broadband network, we may not even need local storage of any sort.

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

no expandability, connectivity, upgradability etc. Anyone agree with me?

Upgrading PC beige-boxes annoyed the heck out of me. I don't have time to putz around with computers anymore. I want a turnkey solution with a minimum of hassle.

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

Would anyone be interested in maybe a slightly larger powerbook (not obsessed about thinness), that connects to everything under the sun (two firewire 800s, two firewire 400s, e.sata, s-video, dvi, usb2), with upgradeable modular components, return of the daughtercard so the processor can be upgraded?

NO!!!! Give me something that's refined and portable and connects to a minimum of standard ports. My 12" PB has all the ports that I have ever needed and then some.

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

I suppose if no-one would be interested in that, it makes sense that apple stopped making laptops like that. I just think its a shame, that's all - I'd pay more for a laptop that was future-proofed like that.

But it isn't future-proofed. Unless you actually use all of those ports right now, you're just spending money on hardware that may very well be obsolete in a few years time. I made the mistake of buying the most powerful, future-proofed Quadra back in the early 90's. I think I used 1 NuBus slot over its entire lifetime.

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

As for moving into the 21st century (F1000), I've got a powermac g5, I just use my powerbook more for everyday internet, word processing, itunes etc. A newer laptop would be a waste of money, as I've got all the power I need in my desktop.

Balogna. Upgrading your laptop is a waste of money. Sell it and use the proceeds to buy a used iBook G4. The faster CPU will make using Safari and Flash websites less tedious. Once you see HD video, you might even spring for a MacBook Pro.

I think you're an old nutter.

[nJm]

This really puts things in perspective for me. I was contemplating whether to upgrade my 1ghz iBook by adding 1gb ram, 7200rpm HD and a new battery, but figured I'd be better off selling it (apple notebooks hold their value quite well) and put the money towards a new MacBook when they come out.

[demibob]

Originally Posted by nJm

This really puts things in perspective for me. I was contemplating whether to upgrade my 1ghz iBook by adding 1gb ram, 7200rpm HD and a new battery, but figured I'd be better off selling it (apple notebooks hold their value quite well) and put the money towards a new MacBook when they come out.

so has everybody decided the new ibook will be called a macbook
i realy dont think apple would change the name just yet

[cenutrio]

I have an almost 5 years old TiPB 400 with an upgraded HD, 1 GB RAM, airport, etc, running Tiger. Still a good system for daily tasks.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by demibob

so has everybody decided the new ibook will be called a macbook
i realy dont think apple would change the name just yet

Well, I didn't think they would change the name PowerBook, but they did. The name MacBook Pro does imply that there will be a "normal" MacBook on the way as well, but no one really knows.

[Ian_Bullock]

f1000,
I still think it's impressive that the pismo isn't completely outdated though - I see 6 year old pc laptops, and they just look ancient. I accept what you're saying about the video card, lcd etc, and if I'm honest, I wouldn't ever use the pismo for garageband, photoshop etc. But what I was impressed by was the fact that in a week I got it back from the dead in terms of useability by adding a bit of ram, a superdrive, and a wireless card. I'd already upgraded the hard drive to 30GB, so that's ok. I was just tempted to go all the way and see how good a machine it could be made into when compared with the modern ones. I found that thread on the "best powerbook ever" quite interesting too - the fact that a lot of people seemed to be choosing the pismo, over the titanium, which on paper is a much better machine, but in real life is much less tough, durable, and long-lasting. (I know the most recent G4 powerbooks came top, but you'd expect that as it's the current model, or was until recently)

Now I wasn't suggesting everyone with a tibook or later should go back to 1024x768 resolution, or tiny vram and slow cpu - I was just making the comparison that its an amazing piece of engineering for still even being relevant as an everyday laptop after 6 years, running the latest software. And I don't think it's a record that the current ones will beat. And I think it was quite a successful attempt at creating a future-proofed laptop.

So how about I buy a MacBook Pro, take out the motherboard and intel processor, and put it in the pismo case? How hard can it be.....

Anyway, f1000, I accept a lot of the points you made, but see if you agree with the stuff I've said here. And sorry to hear about your misfortunes with the quadra, I'm sorry it made you bitter about upgrading....
Ian

[Ian_Bullock]

And yeah, I reckon the new ibook will be called "macbook" - otherwise there would have been no point in the name macbook pro, just wouldn't make sense.

I suppose it might be called "macbook consumer." Now that's a classy name

Or "Macbook con" for short. Hmmm....

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

f1000,
I found that thread on the "best powerbook ever" quite interesting too - the fact that a lot of people seemed to be choosing the pismo, over the titanium, which on paper is a much better machine, but in real life is much less tough, durable, and long-lasting.

People in that thread aren't choosing a machine for actual use today, though. I would probably choose the PowerBook 100 for its influential design (keyboard back toward the screen, built-in pointing device, etc) but I certainly wouldn't want to use one now. The Pismo was a great design for its time, but its time has come and gone.

I still think it's impressive that the pismo isn't completely outdated though - I see 6 year old pc laptops, and they just look ancient. I accept what you're saying about the video card, lcd etc, and if I'm honest, I wouldn't ever use the pismo for garageband, photoshop etc. But what I was impressed by was the fact that in a week I got it back from the dead in terms of useability by adding a bit of ram, a superdrive, and a wireless card.

Macs in general seem to have longer working lives than PCs. I'm not sure if that's because Mac owners are just more attached to their computers or if its because the Mac OS in its various forms doesn't deteriorate over time as much as Windows seems to. They probably are better designed than PCs, but they use almost all the same parts as other computers, so I doubt that they are any more long-lasting from a hardware point of view.

[Spliffdaddy]

*types his reply with his trusty (circa1999) 400Celeron running WinXP Pro*

[jamil5454]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

*types his reply with his trusty (circa1999) 400Celeron running WinXP Pro*

Ouch. Sounds painful.

[brettcamp]

I liked my Pismo a few years ago, but prefer the slimmer form, superior screen, video card, etc. of its successors. As John123 noted, its usefulness today, even upgraded, depends on what you'll use it for.
However, lots of Pismophiles are out there upgrading and using them. Check Charles Moore's columns on Low End Mac and MacOpinion for lots of advice about that.

[pete]

I think for $600 you'll have a machine you can use for a few more years that is ergonomically superior to what is produced today. But of course power-wise it is far behind the current machines. It really depends on what you need and if it's your only machine. I'd say that if it's just for portability and you have another powerful desktop at home, few machines can beat the pismo - especially with a new display, fast hdd etc! I LOVE the pismo and my girlfriend's pismo keeps running as the ibooks and powerbooks of her friends' are purchased, used and die. So: if you feel sentimental about this particular powerbook I think you'll be happy that you put in the money! let us know what you decide

[f1000]

Originally Posted by nJm

This really puts things in perspective for me. I was contemplating whether to upgrade my 1ghz iBook by adding 1gb ram, 7200rpm HD and a new battery, but figured I'd be better off selling it (apple notebooks hold their value quite well) and put the money towards a new MacBook when they come out.

I don't want to imply that it's never good to upgrade a laptop. RAM and a bigger HD are immediately useful upgrades. They're also dirt-cheap, interchangeable commodities. If your iBook is still relatively new, then go ahead and do the upgrades. If you're deadset on getting a new MacBook in two or so months, then I'd say hold off on the upgrades.

I need a new battery for my PB, but I'm holding out for a 13" MacBook Pro. The 15" one is awfully tempting, though.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Icruise

...or if its because the Mac OS in its various forms doesn't deteriorate over time as much as Windows seems to.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Macs of yesteryear were vastly superior to pre-Windows PCs. Even when PCs got color and faster chips, Macs seemed superior.

Today, OS differences aren't as significant, so hardware aspects have become more important; alas, Macs use most of the same components as PCs do. Mac users increasingly lament speed and cost/performance differences between their machines and PCs.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

And sorry to hear about your misfortunes with the quadra, I'm sorry it made you bitter about upgrading....
Ian

My misfortune was Apple's gain. I see it as having been a donation to the cause.

[Ian_Bullock]

The point about the quality of the software is well-made I think. A 6year-old PC would run like it was ploughing through treacle, whereas I've actually seen this laptop speed up in the last 6 years with each new version of OS X. Quite an achievement I think. Though whether it'll take Leopard, I'm not sure - may consider leaving it at Tiger. Has anyone heard anything about when Leopard's out by the way? Or is it going to make an entrance a few weeks before Vista? I suppose this needs to be in another thread.

[yticolev]

Originally Posted by Ian_Bullock

return of the daughtercard so the processor can be upgraded? I suppose if no-one would be interested in that, it makes sense that apple stopped making laptops like that. I just think its a shame, that's all - I'd pay more for a laptop that was future-proofed like that.

Not completely sure if it is true - I saw a report that the MBP has a removable processor. So if later processors have the same pin configuration, you are somewhat future proofed. But I notice that while it is not compelling new technology, every generation has a better and brighter screen than the one before. And comes with better video cards that the OS can offload some duties on. You may not care about eye candy, but you are not getting everything the OS is capable on a PISMO. I also doubt that any further speed increases will come on OSX for PowerPC - not only has it been optimized up the kazoo, but more effort will be placed on Intel chips in the future. And if you care about speed at all, the MBP is probably over one order of magnitude faster than yours. Personally, I would figure that is worth the upgrade alone after what, six years?

[Louis918]

I enjoy using my pismo everyday and I wouldn't trade it for a macbook pro...honestly; I will probably purchase a future revision in a few years, but I don't plan on ever giving this computer up. I’ll upgrade when there is a real reason to upgrade…

Yeah, I can't rip, encode, or burn dvd's with it, but I still use it for some really minor quicktime editing. It's fun to use, good to look at, and I don't have to worry about walking around with a delicate $2200 piece of equipment.

I really don't understand what all the hype is about the newest and fastest...and the biggest screen. It really means nothing but profit for apple. F1000 summed it up by saying that most features will never be utilized and eventually become obsolete, just adding to the price of the machine. The macbook pro is nothing more than the current powerbook lineup, but for some reason, thousands of people waited and waited and then jumped on them the minute they were announced. It's just a name and slight hardware change, but it got all those hesistant people to buy a new computer; a new computer thats already been available for months now.

I'll continue to upgrade my pismo and enjoy using it until it can't go on anymore,

Louis

[Ian_Bullock]

Originally Posted by Louis918

I enjoy using my pismo everyday and I wouldn't trade it for a macbook pro...honestly; I will probably purchase a future revision in a few years, but I don't plan on ever giving this computer up. I’ll upgrade when there is a real reason to upgrade…

Yeah, I can't rip, encode, or burn dvd's with it, but I still use it for some really minor quicktime editing. It's fun to use, good to look at, and I don't have to worry about walking around with a delicate $2200 piece of equipment.

I really don't understand what all the hype is about the newest and fastest...and the biggest screen. It really means nothing but profit for apple. F1000 summed it up by saying that most features will never be utilized and eventually become obsolete, just adding to the price of the machine. The macbook pro is nothing more than the current powerbook lineup, but for some reason, thousands of people waited and waited and then jumped on them the minute they were announced. It's just a name and slight hardware change, but it got all those hesistant people to buy a new computer; a new computer thats already been available for months now.

I'll continue to upgrade my pismo and enjoy using it until it can't go on anymore,

Louis

I agree about the obsession with the newest and fastest (though I admit that I wouldn't give up my G5), but I think the latest evolution of the powerbook line is more than a "slight hardware change" From what I can see they've put dual processors in, SATA hard drives, new 3/4inch express cards, built-in camera etc. And it sounds like it'll be at least twice as fast in realtime usage, once the Universal binaries for all the pro apps come out.

So I think it is worth changing to if you need a powerful laptop. My main point was that it isn't as well designed to try to prevent future obsolescense as the laptops Apple used to make, but if (as someone said earlier I think) it has the potential for processor upgrades, that sounds promising.

But I know exactly what you're saying about the pismo though - I've got pretty attached to mine. Probably because it's all I've seen for the last 4 months while I write my dissertation

Ian

[bourgeoisie]

my 3 year old 800mhz G3 iBook is still running pretty strong, other than flickering backlight/periodic logic board issues. being 20 yrs old it's hard not to always want the best/fastest/shinyest thing out, but last month i finally resolved myself to loving this ibook and wanting to keep it until it wouldn't do anything else, but i'm upgrading to a G4 ibook because the opportunity presented itself and i'd be stupid not to jump on it.

[JKT]

Wrt to processor upgradability - given the cost of going from your 400MHz G3 to a 450MHZ G4 for what would be a very marginal speed boost at best for the majority of what you would do on the laptop, I don't really see the point in paying for it. CPU upgrades have always seemed to be a waste of money to me (desktops included) because the bottleneck has always been the archaic motherboard architecture that you are adding the new processor to. If you were going from e.g. 400MHz to 800MHz, then yes it would be great, but you simply can't do that because your old hardware is not capable of handling it and never will be. In other words, being able to swap processors in the future is something that doesn't make much practical sense, and even less financial sense to the majority of people.

In terms of the upgradability of the AlBooks - you have the PC card slot, and the ports that 99% of people are going to need are already built in... replacing the hard drive, while not easy, is still possible and likewise the optical drive. So I don't really see it as being that much less upgradeable than your pismo. Whether or not it becomes obsolete faster than your machine will depend on the speed of software development more than anything else.

Wrt to my own AlBook, due to the lack of progress with the G5 chip, I'm quite happy to see that it is anything but obsolete after nearly two years of ownership. Will I still be using it when it is 5 to 6 years old? I probably will be as my next machine is going to be a desktop, and I imagine it would still be working fine. The only thing that is definitely not going to last that long is the battery...

FWIW, my old 400MHz G3 iMacDV which is now ~6 years old is still going strong, is running the latest version of the OS and is a capable little performer (and the only upgrades it has had are maxed RAM to 1GB and a swapped in 40GB 7200rpm hard drive) but I wouldn't want to have carried on using it in place of what I have now... no way.

[barang]

Maybe it's just my nostolgia, but I've always had a love affair with the Pismo. When I was really young, they were the sleekest, most powerful, fastest computer out there. They were the object of my dreams. This was back when I had a Powerbook 190. Then I used my Wallstreet 300 up until late 2004, and even recorded professional radio programs that were broadcast internationally with it, when it was 5 years old.

So i'd say, go for it. Geek it out as a fun project. Sure, you'd be sinking money down a rat hole, but it would be like restoring an old Bimmer.