[Spliff]

Yikes! That's some sloppy work. Is Apple's QA really this bad? It looks as they're applying the paste with a pastry gun or an ice cream scoop. Those of you with MacBook Pros might want to open them up to see if you have the same problem.

http://home.sc.rr.com/mixedbag/MBP/Photos.html

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/85/images_large/44.jpg

Apple Discussion thread about the problem:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....&tstart=15

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Spliff

Yikes! That's some sloppy work. Is Apple's QA really this bad? It looks as they're applying the paste with a pastry gun or an ice cream scoop. Those of you with MacBook Pros might want to open them up to see if you have the same problem.

http://home.sc.rr.com/mixedbag/MBP/Photos.html

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/85/images_large/44.jpg

Apple Discussion thread about the problem:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....&tstart=15

Hmm, does look a little sloppy when you get in close, but I really don't care what the machine looks like on the inside as long as it works properly. There do seem to be quality problems on some of the machines though. I got mine with crooked keys, others have gaps--hope its not a trend.

[mduell]

Does Apple QA ever see a laptop between the Compal (or is it Quanta?) factory and your house? I doubt it.

[ibook_steve]

First of all, you really should not be recommending to people to open up their machines, especially for something as ridiculous as this. It doesn't matter how it looks as long as it works.

Second, what you are seeing is completely normal. Thermal paste is not used because it takes too long to apply and it can make a mess. Apple uses thermal pads that are made of materials that slightly melt, adhering better between the chip and the heatsink. They initially get squished when the machine is assembled and so some squeezes out the side. It is not recommended to remove and reattach the heatsink without thermal paste or replacement pads because the adhesion will not be as good with the already squished pad.

To everyone reading this, don't take your machine apart to look at the thermal pads! That's just a waste of a perfectly good warranty.

Steve

[chabig]

I completely agree. Don't open your MacBooks. And those pictures look normal to me.

Chris

[mduell]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve

Second, what you are seeing is completely normal. Thermal paste is not used because it takes too long to apply and it can make a mess. Apple uses thermal pads that are made of materials that slightly melt, adhering better between the chip and the heatsink. They initially get squished when the machine is assembled and so some squeezes out the side. It is not recommended to remove and reattach the heatsink without thermal paste or replacement pads because the adhesion will not be as good with the already squished pad.

The linked-to images all look like thermal paste to me, not thermal pads. It looks like a bit excess, but nothing horribly overdone.

[Spliff]

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/grou...m/170006588731

Lots of freaking out in this thread. Some seem to think that the excess thermal paste might be causing the very high temperatures they're measuring in the MacBook Pro.

[mduell]

In the thread at Ars they link to this picture which they claim is from the Apple service manual. It looks like the system assembler is following Apple's directions.

The Apple forums thread that the Ars thread links to also mentions that people who run the mirror widget (or one of the other whine-eliminating hacks) are also seeing the higher temperatures. This supports my theory that the whine-eliminating hacks are just preventing the CPU from entering the deeper sleep states (C3 and C4), which keeps power consumption and temperatures up.

[andgarden]

The first ten people who go to yousendit can see the entire tech PDF.

That reassembly picture is real, and on page 106.

UPDATE: you can also get the PDF here

[aristotles]

Well those guys are obviously clueless if they think Apple used Arctic silver. If you are going to spend that much on a laptop, take it into an authorized dealer. Man, mac users sure are whiny eh? It almost makes me regret switching.

I'd suggest some of you get some help for your OCD.

[quilmes]

Originally Posted by aristotles

Well those guys are obviously clueless if they think Apple used Arctic silver. If you are going to spend that much on a laptop, take it into an authorized dealer. Man, mac users sure are whiny eh? It almost makes me regret switching.

I'd suggest some of you get some help for your OCD.

I agree that unless someone can prove to me that this is "bad" then people shouldn't come out and complain. Ever take an engine apart? it isnt pretty.

Though I do find it pretty neat that mac users take their computers this seriously and have this much fun following what they are buying. Mac users follow this stuff because they love it, not because they have to. It would be easy to go buy a PC, take it to someone else for service, buy whatever fills your needs and nothing more, follow the norm.

Why did you switch?

[Simon]

So where's the problem? It's always rather too much heat paste than too little. We have tons of VME crates around here. Those cards get pretty damn hot and there is only little space. We use thermal paste by the pound to connect hot spots to thermal pipes and heatsinks. Almost all heat contacts look just like on those pics. That's certainly never caused a problem. And I'm talking about roughly 500 crates with roughly 10 cards each that have been running 24/7 for the past 5 years.

But forget to apply paste to just one of those thermal contacts and you're in for a shitload of trouble.

[Dr.Michael]

Originally Posted by Simon

So where's the problem?
...
But forget to apply paste to just one of those thermal contacts and you're in for a shitload of trouble.

It will enhance heat conductivity if you apply the termal paste in a very thin layer. The paste itself is not a great heat conductor (thats why thin is recommended), but it makes the uneven surfaces of processor chips even and thus the area of real heat contact becomes larger. Too much paste in the area of contact (like it is shown in the pictures) acts more as an insulating layer. At least thermal conductivity is worse than it could be.

Since the macbooks get hot, here is a weak spot. A thinner layer of paste could enhance the cooling (and the first site that spliff linked to shows exactly that).
But I also agree with ibook-steve: Don't open the macbooks and remove its heatsinks. Afer the removal you have to apply new paste or your lovely core duo will be fried! So only remove the heatsinks if you know exactly what you do. And be aware that you are trashing Apple Care.

[Simon]

If you apply pressure (which you normally do) the paste gets spread out. Of course 5mm of paste is an insulator, but at the location you apply pressure you'd never have that thickness. To my understanding, the paste covers any unevenness which is the desired effect.

[buddy1065]

Hmmm... I am not seeing paste spread out; it is mashed all over like frosting according to the first link. After the cleanup the guy says it runs cooler. I believe him, although I would never try and crack one open to clean it... All the more reason to wait for next generation. Undoubtedly they will be cooler if the present method is trashed.

[Tomchu]

Look, guys ...

1. Too much was probably applied.
2. Once the heatsink is installed, and pressure applied, most of it is squeezed out the sides, and the only paste that remains is what is needed (ie. in the dips of the two surfaces, etc.).
3. If the MBP is not shutting down or clock-throttling due to overheating, there's no need to fiddle with the paste.

Here at work I probably do 3-4 heatsink installations a day, and all that's required is a quick drop in the centre of the CPU, and then some good pressure on the heatsink. When you take the heatsink off later, the paste has spread out very nicely.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by smellycat

I agree that unless someone can prove to me that this is "bad" then people shouldn't come out and complain. Ever take an engine apart? it isnt pretty.

Though I do find it pretty neat that mac users take their computers this seriously and have this much fun following what they are buying. Mac users follow this stuff because they love it, not because they have to. It would be easy to go buy a PC, take it to someone else for service, buy whatever fills your needs and nothing more, follow the norm.

Why did you switch?

I switched because of OS X and the software available for it including the iLife apps and the developer tools. I was impressed by how easy it was to develop interfaces for native applications with interface builder. How the hardware looked was secondary to me and my first mac was an eMac.

I would have reiterate that you can cause more damage improperly applying arctic silver than simply leaving the machine alone. From the descriptions people here offered, it sounds to me that applying a thin layer could result in a worse situation than applying regular thermal grease in a blob in the center as you could potentially not have a thick enough layer to make proper contact. I have also heard that this stuff will flow a bit when it heats up so if you only apply a thin layer, it could run when the heat increases resulting in a gap.

[Spliff]

No one can seem to agree whether or not this is a bad thing. Now this from the Ars Technica thread:

Hi Guys

I just thought I'd jump in here to point out that the guy who originally posted this was Jean-Cyril from Rockville MD, nearly 2 weeks ago, in this thread but he didn't take any photos. He deserves the credit for finding this issue. After his success, I rolled up my sleeves and got to work and took photos, posted here.

As an engineer of 20 years standing, currently studying for a Nanoscience degree (including thermodynamics), my take on it is this. With a small quantity of compound, all the heat generated by the three chips is transfered directly to the heat pipe by conduction and then the heat pipe is cooled efficiently by the fans. Too much paste will not change the seperation of the dies and pads but will just be squeezed out around the edges. The important thing to realise here is that the paste is a very good thermal conductor so that when too much has been applied a proportion of the generated heat is conducted into the paste that has been squeezed out. Unlike the heat that has been transfered efficiently to the heat pipe, this heat has nowhere to go via conduction but it can radiate into the airspace within the computer and from there, it can heat the exterior of the case by convection.

I should point out that Jean-Cyril, myself and most of the early modifiers attacked our machines because it was obvious to us that our machines were hot, and I mean really hot! My mate at Uni took delivery of his MBP this week and it's running at the same temperature as mine does after it's mod, so not all MBPs are affected. These puppies run warm, but they shouldn't run hot.

The issue is now being further muddied on Apple's discussion board by the usual crop of fanboys with their attitude that "if Apple did it then it must be right".
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
have been overclocking the X1600 while playing tomb raider on XP, though. Before re-applying the paste, I used to get crashes and lock-ups running anything faster than 400/400. Now I can play as long as I like at 450/450, although the fans are always on then.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Spliff

Yikes! That's some sloppy work. Is Apple's QA really this bad? It looks as they're applying the paste with a pastry gun or an ice cream scoop. Those of you with MacBook Pros might want to open them up to see if you have the same problem.

http://home.sc.rr.com/mixedbag/MBP/Photos.html

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/85/images_large/44.jpg

Apple Discussion thread about the problem:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....&tstart=15

It's not a "problem" if it's doing the job correctly. I'm going to make a wild and crazy guess that Apple engineers know what they are doing much more than you or I. It's misleading to call it a "problem". It may offend your aesthetics, but that's the extent of the "problem".

I, too, highly advise people to not open their computers to look for this. THAT is asking for trouble.

tooki

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by tooki

It may offend your aesthetics, but that's the extent of the "problem".

tooki

It's true. I like pretty things.

[hakstooy]

Originally Posted by tooki

It's not a "problem" if it's doing the job correctly. I'm going to make a wild and crazy guess that Apple engineers know what they are doing much more than you or I.

I dunno, my MBP is not that hot, the underside has never gotten above 120 on the underside even when encoding video. But on the other threads there was a picture of 124 at the keyboard, and that is really hot, that would seem to be a problem to me.

And there was also discussion over the page printed from the manual that perhaps there was a typo between 0.2 and 2cc of thermal paste, and considering the unskilled workers assembling these, its possible such a mistake was never noticed.

It would also seem there is also a growing chorus from those who have performed this adjustment and seem to have cooler, more stable machines.

I certainly don't think its a good idea for everyone to start opening their MBPs, but if you have such an extremely hot MBP and you know what you're doing, it sounds like it might be worth your while. If not only for comfort, but for the long-term life of the components (one guy noted bubbling PCB... thats hot).

[wupboxer]

I actually signed up to the MacNN forums to comment on this issue (I've been lurking for quite awhile now ). I'm sure everyone (thanks to the above posters) now knows the pros and cons of applying proper amounts of thermal paste... But I think most of us can agree that the quantity used on the X1600 is a little excessive. I mean, god, it orange-peels when the heatpipe is removed... I've been a computer hobbyist for at least 5-6 years now (I know it's not alot of time, but I've done alot during it) and I've even opened a custom PC repair and upgrade shop on my University Campus... Yes, that was to sort out my credentials, I hate fanboys and idiots as much as the rest of us .

Supposing that they're using some sort of poly-synthetic silver Thermal Interface Material (TIM) you're looking at a thermal conductivity rating of almost 200-300 Kw/(m2-K)... But I stress that is at a thickness of 25 micrometers (as indicated by the Arctic Silver 5/3 data sheet available from their website). If a micrometer is a 1000th of a millimeter, there's a hugely negative co-relation between conductivity and thickness. On top of the Graphics chip, I'd guess that the stuff was layered at least 1/2 a mm thick, reducing the heat transfer tenfold.

Two things I've noticed, however, is this layering of paste is sort of normal for Apple. My dual G5 sitting under my desk used to dual-load at close to 70 degrees C... Through reapplying the coating of thermal paste (which was originally very sloppy and thick), and adding in 2 silent 92mm fans blowing through the processor Heatsink Unit my temperatures dropped 25 degrees.

I'll be buying a Macbook within the next 6 months, but as stated above, I won't be opening it to reapply the stuff. I mean, if I buy applecare, and the thing fries at all in 3 years, who cares? I'm not paying for it. The night my warranty is up, however, the thing will be in pieces on my bed .

It's also interesting to note that the southbridge doesn't get warm as indicated by the lack of any paste present on it... Also, as the paste is covering many of the regulatory capacitors on the sides of each chip, I wonder how electrically conductive the stuff is, it might be something worth checking out...

Whether you take my comments with a grain or a pound of salt, I think It was worth contributing what I've come to experience working with PC's for work and Mac's at home.

[Spliff]

Arcygenical,

Great first post.

[wupboxer]

I'd like to add that, on further inspection, my Tibook needed a replacement of TIM material. This thread got me thinking...

I cleaned off the CPU with some iso. alcohol (92%) and added a thin coat (with a razor blade) of AS5 compound. I'd like to report that the top of my HS is warmer by 4c than before (measured 100% full load under Folding at Home) which means more heat is being pulled from the CPU. My fan noise has stayed constant.

Thanks for the inspiration to do something I've wanted to do for a while.

Oh and Thanks Spliff

[amazing]

I'll second the kudos to Arcygenical for the excellent first posts! I mean, to actually include before and after temperatures, on both a dual G5 and a Ti, and then mention that the fan noise stayed the same? All I can say is: Welcome to the forums!

Now, I'm wondering how much an Apple service provider would charge to do the above? I mean, if you really had a heat problem wouldn't it be better to take care of the problem without voiding your Applecare, rather than suffering with excessive heat for 3 years? I went around to both and Apple Store and a couple of CompUSA, and 4 out of 10 MBPs were significantly hotter--so the odds of exchanging your new MBP "FireBook" for a cooler example aren't great.

You could also have a 160 GB HD installed at the same time...

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Arcygenical

I'd like to add that, on further inspection, my Tibook needed a replacement of TIM material. This thread got me thinking...

I cleaned off the CPU with some iso. alcohol (92%) and added a thin coat (with a razor blade) of AS5 compound. I'd like to report that the top of my HS is warmer by 4c than before (measured 100% full load under Folding at Home) which means more heat is being pulled from the CPU.

Wouldn't that imply more heat is being transfered to the local area of the case instead of out of the normal heat removal channel?

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by tooki

It's not a "problem" if it's doing the job correctly. I'm going to make a wild and crazy guess that Apple engineers know what they are doing much more than you or I. It's misleading to call it a "problem". It may offend your aesthetics, but that's the extent of the "problem".

I, too, highly advise people to not open their computers to look for this. THAT is asking for trouble.

tooki

Apple engineers design the computers, but they don't actually build them. That is done by foreign laborers probably making less than a dollar an hour. If an actual Apple engineer assembled my computer, I'm sure it would work perfectly.

I do agree that no one should take apart their MBP and void their warranty just make the inside look pretty.

[amazing]

Well, the real issue is whether cleaning up the mounds of thermal paste is just "making pretty" or whether this significantly contributes to an overheating problem. If it is a major factor in contributing to the "Firebook" problem, then it does need fixing. Only time will tell whether the correct assembly lowers the temps (especially since the MBP doesn't have temp monitoring software yet) but hurrah for those people attempting it and then reporting on the results. We just have to wait for a consensus to develop.

Waiting for Apple to clean up its act is an exercise in futility.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

Apple engineers design the computers, but they don't actually build them. That is done by foreign laborers probably making less than a dollar an hour. If an actual Apple engineer assembled my computer, I'm sure it would work perfectly.

I do agree that no one should take apart their MBP and void their warranty just make the inside look pretty.

However, it is Apple Engineers that write the build manuals for said employees and it is that manual suggesting the use of what may well be too much thermal paste.

[lowdaksport]

Originally Posted by lowdaksport

I dont want to shoot this down or anythign cuz for one that is an ungodly amount of paste they used which is definatley a factor in the heat problem. But if they used some crap on them from apple then just cleaning it and switchign to somehtign like arctic silver, or any higher quality paste, usually drops processor temps about 10 degrees anyways. On every computer i have had i have noticed around ten degrees difference on the processor but I dont know if this is different for laptops or anything or if that has any effect on the total overall temperature. Not sure if that makes sence, basically im trying to get at the fact that just switching from crappy thermal paste to higher qulaity might be the reson for the temp drops.

I posted this on the other thread for this but its just my thoughts may have a little to do with it but Im no expert

[Star-Fire]

I opened mine up, take a look

http://home.comcast.net/~jasonn/MBP/MBPPaste.html

It's cooler on battery, but still pretty warm on AC.

[hakstooy]

Well, this is getting interesting.

Someone on the Apple thread has posted an extension that lets you determine the CPU temp and people are reporting what they're getting.

Someone who has done the mod is reporting 48C at idle, 64C under full load. Someone who hasn't is getting 71C at idle, 95C at full load. 95!!! Which, is apparently 5 degrees less than the max Intel recommends WITHOUT A COOLING SYSTEM. So, it would seem that the heatpipe isn't doing very much.

Personally, I am getting 56C at idle, 64 C at typical (browsing, email) and 82C under full load. And, my fans have NOT come on. Since the fans are wired to activate via temp sensors on the heatpipe, it would seem that even after 10 minutes under full load the heatpipe isn't getting hot enough to trip the fans.

That doesn't seem good. I mean, I like a quiet laptop as much as the next guy, but how long is this thing gonna last if its essentially constantly running at nearly its maximum recommended operating temps? This is like running an engine at its redline constantly.

---

Edit: There's another guy getting 95C under load.
Edit Again: Another guy getting 97C under load (the new leader!). Also, interestingly, some who have done the mod are reporting low idle temps (40's) but high idle temps (85-90C).

[schmoe]

Thanks for the update hakstooy! Here's a link to the discussion.

I've already ordered the appropriate tools and thermal paste for my MBP, hopefully it'll cool down and the fan "mooing" will go away since the temp sensors should work properly and start the fans. Sure is a real shame about Apple's lack of quality control, I doubt they'll fix anyone's MBP until some of the components fail due to heat-death.

[hookem2oo7]

this thread made me wonder about my 1.33 ibook, so i took it apart. no paste on it, just thermal pad. I took off the pad and swabbed it up nice and clean and applied some arctic silver 5 i had. well...before it would idle around 52*C with the processor setting on Highest. Now, after the fun of the reassembly, its idling at 39*C. it used to idle at 39*C when i had it on Reduced. My load temp would hit about 72*C, so we'll see what improvement the paste made over apple's stock pad. not totally related to the MBP problems, but interesting nonetheless IMO...

update::: load temps struggled to get to 61*C. the fan doesnt kick on until somewhere near 70* IIRC, and it used to come on almost immediately when playing medal of honor, now it didnt come on for 15 minutes of playing time

[schmoe]

In preparation for the upcoming surgery on my MBP (stock 2.0ghz, 2GB RAM) I've done some testing with the speedit kext. After starting up and browsing enough to download and install the kext the temperature was 38C. It gradually went up from there to ~60C which is when the fan "moo" started. The temperature stabilized around 65C.

I then played the 1080p version of the Superman trailer, two "yes > /dev/null"s and some program compilation. The temperature maxed out at 82C with the fans on, but I wasn't able to get it any higher even with iTunes running. The laptop was on an iCurve which may have helped.

So it doesn't look like it will fry itself, just looks like the fans don't come on early enough because the temp sensors aren't working. Also interesting is some other research by the speedit guy that indicates OSX may not be utilizing all of the power saving features of Intel hardware.

[hookem2oo7]

i still wouldnt be comfortable with an 82* temperature. i had one of the first emachines laptops with a mobile athlon xp that would load around 84*. it only lasted a year because it fried the northbridge from being so hot inside...just something to consider.