[dhsurg]

I know that there are many opinions on this subject. I am a long term apple user but just recently bought a HP 15 inch laptop for my wife as it was $1000 cheaper than a similarly configured laptop from Apple. Apple needs to cut the prices of all their notebooks by $300-500. Apple notebooks should all come with 2 GB RAM standard. I am willing to pay a few hundred dollars more for the Apple Leopard OS but Apple needs to drop prices or dramatically upgrade their notebooks for the same price. Now that Apple sales numbers are up, the prices should fall by economies of scale (are you listening Steve)?

[SpaceMonkey]

I'm not saying that you are incorrect, but I would be interested to know which HP and Apple products you were comparing, because most direct comparisons that I have seen between similarly-configured Apple and Windows computers show very little difference in price, if any. This is with all of the "extras" that are standard on Apple products but that sometimes aren't on the base model Windows PCs, like Bluetooth.

[ghporter]

You get what you pay for. HP laptops took a real dive in quality and reliability when HP bought Compaq, and they've stayed low ever since. I have one classmate with an HP laptop and four with Macs. Guess which one has had problems requiring service...

[The Placid Casual]

I just made another thread about this, in particular buying in France or the EU.

For example:

Macbook base model US - $1099 @ Current exchange rate in to Euro 755
Macbook base model France - Euro 1049

Even without tax the Macbook is Euro 877 which equates to $1275

[Simon]

Euro prices minus tax reveal a markup of roughly 15% over the US price. I think that's a tad high, but I can easily see that a markup of 10% could be justified.

The main problem with these comparisons IMHO is that the perceived prices are much higher in Europe because VAT is always included. And European VATs of 20% and more do make stuff expensive.

[analogika]

In addition, all consumer goods in Europe are required by law to have two years warranty (not the same thing, nor the same terms and services as Apple's one-year worldwide warranty). This makes products more expensive.

Also, the cost of running a business is more expensive in Europe, than it is in the U.S.

And Placid writes "at current exchange rates", as if that really mattered. Current exchange rate is almost $1.45 to the Euro. Not many weeks ago, it was at $1.30. Before the U.S. started bombing Iraq, it was closer to $1.10. The fact that the dollar is currently worth less than toilet paper is NOT something that Apple can vary their Euro prices by on a weekly, or even monthly basis. That is, not if they actually want to run their business beyond the scope of a few weeks. What happens if the bombing stops and the dollar suddenly takes a hike overnight?

[The Placid Casual]

Originally Posted by analogika 

In addition, all consumer goods in Europe are required by law to have two years warranty (not the same thing, nor the same terms and services as Apple's one-year worldwide warranty). This makes products more expensive.

Nope, only one year I'm afraid, so no excuse there.

Also, all Apple goods come through Holland from the Far East before they get shipped to the US... so in theory, could not reflect further shipping costs of other batches further to the US.

[Cold Warrior]

Interesting...Why through Holland of all places?

[The Placid Casual]

Rotterdam is one of the biggest container ports in the world, and the main shipping distribution centre from the Far East to Europe and the US

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by dhsurg 

...just recently bought a HP 15 inch laptop for my wife as it was $1000 cheaper than a similarly configured laptop from Apple...

Perhaps you could enlighten us with complete specs. My experience has been that you get what you pay for.

Even if specs were to be identical, frankly $1000, 20 cents per hour, would not be anywhere near enough to make me intentionally live with Windows for the 5000 or so hours of a new box.

-Allen Wicks

[OreoCookie]

My sister's HP cost about 1050 €: it's a 15 inch 2.5 kg laptop (with integrated graphics), 1 GB RAM and good built quality. For about the same price, I could have gotten her a MacBook, but she insisted, she didn't want a laptop with a `funny OS'. (I know you can install Windows on it, but try explaining that to your sister.) I still love her

I don't think they are that expensive. Quality costs -- on the Mac side and the Windows side as well.

[msuper69]

The question is not whether Apple's notebook offerings are too expensive; it's are they a good value?

If you can afford it, it's not too expensive.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I don't think they are that expensive. Quality costs -- on the Mac side and the Windows side as well.

But speaking of Macbooks, I think they are overpriced. A notebook at more than 1000 euros without DVD burner is something unheard of today. Yes, this is the entry level Macbook. And what is this silly 130 euro-black-tax? This is the difference between similarly equipped white and black Mackbooks.

There are some aspects in the Macbook pricing that are just difficult to swallow.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

Nope, only one year I'm afraid, so no excuse there.

Wrong.

http://www.cedarrapids.org/_includes...nt&ext=pdf

EU law requires two years. This is a VERY different thing from Apple's own warranty. The German terms for for this are "Gewährleistung" vs. "Garantie". They are legally completely different entities.

The mandatory warranty covers production defects (generally considered as such if they occur within the first six months - after that, the burden of proof is upon the customer to prove that it is in fact a design or manufacturing defect).

The voluntary one-year warranty covers any kind of defect (not incurred by obvious force or abuse) and is generally no-questions-asked. There is no law governing this.

[harbinger75]

I hate to say it, but this argument will never have a clear winner. The fact is, you CAN get a Windows notebook with similar and sometimes superior components for the same, less or even more money than a MBP in any of its three flavors.

I just got done perusing the Alienware site and "building" my own configurations...I came up with a beefier notebook for a little less money. I think the point, for me anyway, is that I want to use the Mac OS. Period. If I wanted to have yet another Windows machine, I could get great deals without a doubt. But, I have had my fill of Windows, so I'm going to wait for the MBP refresh and dive back into Mac.

I loved using Macs from about 1998 to 2004 (not to mention the IIc days way back when), and using OSX is the reason I'll personally spend $2400 and have a few "lesser" features than a comparable Alienware, etc. The MBP has the features I want, and that's enough for me. No matter what brand you choose, it has to have the right features for YOU.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Wrong.

http://www.cedarrapids.org/_includes...nt&ext=pdf

EU law requires two years. This is a VERY different thing from Apple's own warranty. The German terms for for this are "Gewährleistung" vs. "Garantie". They are legally completely different entities.

The mandatory warranty covers production defects (generally considered as such if they occur within the first six months - after that, the burden of proof is upon the customer to prove that it is in fact a design or manufacturing defect).

The voluntary one-year warranty covers any kind of defect (not incurred by obvious force or abuse) and is generally no-questions-asked. There is no law governing this.

Err, again, afraid not. (Not in the UK at least)

I have a Law Degree, and Masters in Law, and in the UK the sale of goods is covered by the 'Sale Of Goods Act 1979' which states that an item purchased must be 'fit for purpose' and of a 'satisfactory quality' ie, free from defects for a 'reasonable' length of time, taken by case law to be 1 year from the date of purchase. There is no 2nd year enshrined into UK law. Anything over the 1st year of purchase has no statutory cover at all.

Also, there is also no real things called 'EU Law'. yes the EU can pass legislation or directives, but it has to be ratified by the individual Member State to be effective. This means that there can be 'EU Laws' on a statute book that have not, and never will be enforced by any member state. The

I know very little of the German Legal system, but in the UK and France they all have only a 1 year warranty period (or very similar) enshrined in their national consumer protection legislation.

The legislation you refer to came in to force in January 2002, and is enforced at the moment is ratified by only Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Germany The Netherlands, Norway, Italy and Sweden.

There are also a few drawbacks to this legislation, namely the wording of the directive is very confusing, specifically Article 3, paragraph 1:

The seller shall be liable to the consumer for any lack of conformity which exists at the time the goods were delivered.

Conformity is defined in Article 2, Paragraph 2:

Consumer goods are presumed to be in conformity with the contract if they:

(a) comply with the description given by the seller and possess the qualities of the goods which the seller has held out to the consumer as a sample or model;

(b) are fit for any particular purpose for which the consumer requires them and which he made known to the seller at the time of conclusion of the contract and which the seller has accepted;

(c) are fit for the purposes for which goods of the same type are normally used;

Article 5, paragraph 3:

Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.

Article 5, paragraph 1:

The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery.

This seems to intimate that you have 24 months to take the product out of the box and see it is working correctly... very different from a 2 year warranty. Also, there is much debate as to whether EU directives are legally enforceable against companies.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Pierre B. 

But speaking of Macbooks, I think they are overpriced. A notebook at more than 1000 euros without DVD burner is something unheard of today. Yes, this is the entry level Macbook.

Features ≠ quality, the two are different questions.
Some of the direct competitors to my sister's HP had a webcam, one of them had more RAM, but they weighed more and were not nearly as rugged. Ditto for the MacBook: very robust construction (although I don't own one, I've owned three iBooks and use a ProBook now which survived a serious bike crash). I'm not saying that Apple isn't making good money with them. But if you want a quality notebook, then you have to pay extra.

[OreoCookie]

@Placid Casual
I'm afraid analogika is right: my father's Mac mini just died after a little less than two years of service. It wasn't covered under warranty (Garantie) anymore and we'd have to prove that the defect was basically present when we bought it -- which is very difficult with electronics.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

@Placid Casual
I'm afraid analogika is right: my father's Mac mini just died after a little less than two years of service. It wasn't covered under warranty (Garantie) anymore and we'd have to prove that the defect was basically present when we bought it -- which is very difficult with electronics.

So you'd have to have proved that the defect was there from the beginning (and therefore had an initial 'lack of conformity'), and not one that developed under normal usage?

Hehe I thought that's what I said?

[Madrag]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

Err, again, afraid not. (Not in the UK at least)

but the uk isn't a part of the EU
joking, of course, but really, the UK almost seems like it isn't part of the EU (no EURO, EU law exeptions, etc), so I'm not surprised the 2 year warranty doens't apply there...

As for apple's notebook prices, I agree that they are too expensive.
The dollar/euro comparison is spot on, and mind you that they don't import it from the USA (as noted before)!

The only reason I'm still deciding if I'll get a MBP over a MB is the price.
edit: I know I have to pay for quality, but believe me that quality can hurt your wallet, especially in poorer countries like mine (Portugal), where a MBP (or any other mac for that matter) has the same price as in Germany, where they earn more than double compared to the Portuguese (and we have 21% VAT!!!)...

[analogika]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

So you'd have to have proved that the defect was there from the beginning (and therefore had an initial 'lack of conformity'), and not one that developed under normal usage?

Hehe I thought that's what I said?

This is the relevant bit:

Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.

As I said above: Basically, a defect that shows up within the first six months is assumed to be a production defect - unless it's obviously user-inflicted damage, or oxidation from excessive moisture, or such.

The point of sale has a threefold chance to rectify the problem within the two years' warranty. If the defect is still present or recurs within these two years, and after three attempts at resolving the problem, then the customer has the legal right to demand an exchange (though whether against money or a replacement machine is up to the point of sale).

I was unaware that this is not the case in Great Britain and France, but while I don't have a law degree, I do work in sales, so...

[The Placid Casual]

Ok, I get what you mean, ty for the explanation. But this only applies to a fault that appears in the first 6 months, and is deemed 'a lack of conformity'? So if the fault happened in the 11th month, you'd only have one month warranty left right? Meaning if your logic board goes after 15 months, you have no redress?

If so, for me, that is not the same as a 2 year warranty.

Although I guess it is an issue of semantics in the end, and of perception.

However, to get back on the point, in the US, if you have any Apple warranty work done, you get 90's cover on the parts and labor that was carried out. Also, if you have 3 problems within 12 months, Apple can decide to 'CRU' the machine... 'Customer Replacement Unit'. All in all, I can't see how the difference in service levels can account for a 15%+ price increase or EU machines...

[BoingoBongo]

They are definitely overpriced, but I'd rather pay extra than have to deal with Windows.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

Ok, I get what you mean, ty for the explanation. But this only applies to a fault that appears in the first 6 months, and is deemed 'a lack of conformity'? So if the fault happened in the 11th month, you'd only have one month warranty left right? Meaning if your logic board goes after 15 months, you have no redress?

If so, for me, that is not the same as a 2 year warranty.

Correct.

It's more of a "lemon law".

However, it still costs money to cover.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Pierre B. 

And what is this silly 130 euro-black-tax? This is the difference between similarly equipped white and black Mackbooks.

Yes, it's too high now. The US black tax is $125 which corresponds to about 85 Euros right now. The Euro black tax MINUS VAT is roughly 110 Euros. A 29% markup.

The black tax itself is capitalism at work. Black sells well and people are willing to pay for it. Accordingly Apple charges more for black thereby increasing their revenues. This makes stockholders happy and is what this game is all about.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Yes, it's too high now. The US black tax is $125 which corresponds to about 85 Euros right now. The Euro black tax MINUS VAT is roughly 110 Euros. A 29% markup.

The black tax itself is capitalism at work. Black sells well and people are willing to pay for it. Accordingly Apple charges more for black thereby increasing their revenues. This makes stockholders happy and is what this game is all about.

It also makes *me* happy, since I opted for the black and enjoy the difference EVERY SINGLE TIME I hold the book in my hands (which is very often). I *really* don't like the feel of the white plastic 'Books (except for the first - Ice - G3 iBooks).

[Bwa]

In Jan 2007 I bought a Gateway laptop for $999 + tax. Dual core AMD processor, 15", 1280x800, 2 GB of RAM and 160 GB hard disk. I was pretty proud of myself.

Until I realized how slow the laptop is. And how heavy. And virtually no battery life at all--I was lucky to get an hour. No bluetooth. No DVI so connecting a 1920x1200 monitor for using text meant blurry text. I survived for a while; the laptop was way faster than my previous iBook G4 (which had also been $999).

Later in the year I bought my girlfriend a black MacBook. $500 more, but her MacBook completely creamed the Gateway laptop at everything. She upgraded to 2 GB of RAM and the MacBook was insanely fast--faster than my 3 GHz dual core XP desktop w/ 3 GB of RAM.

I ended up switching back to the Mac. I bought a MacBook Pro last November and upgraded to 4 GB of RAM. And I bought the new Mac Pro on release day and upgraded to 12 GB of RAM.

The Apple stuff is more than the bargain basement crap out there--but you don't want it. And you'll hate yourself every time you have to kill the virus scanner software because you can't use your computer while it's running.

Having said that, I am planning to buy four low end Dells for test environments. $480 buys a 2.2 GHz Core 2 Duo with 1 GB of RAM and 320 GB SATA drive in a small case (17" deep, 14" high, 4" wide). I had thought about the Mac Mini but with the smaller laptop drive, more limited RAM, and external power brick, it's less interesting to me.

My 2c.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by analogika 

It also makes *me* happy, since I opted for the black and enjoy the difference EVERY SINGLE TIME I hold the book in my hands (which is very often). I *really* don't like the feel of the white plastic 'Books (except for the first - Ice - G3 iBooks).

I agree with you 100%. I love my black MB. I'd never take a white MB just to save $125.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I agree with you 100%. I love my black MB. I'd never take a white MB just to save $125.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is so special about the black model? Is there something more in the material than just the color?

[Simon]

Color, look, and feel.

The black MB isn't the white MB sprayed with black color. It's actually a different coating and you can feel the difference.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Color, look, and feel.

The black MB isn't the white MB sprayed with black color. It's actually a different coating and you can feel the difference.

Yes, I imagine that, but I remember reports of people complaining that it gets very easily finger prints. Other say about the white model that it gets dirty quickly. Having used none of them i don't know what is the general consensus.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally Posted by Pierre B. 

Yes, I imagine that, but I remember reports of people complaining that it gets very easily finger prints. Other say about the white model that it gets dirty quickly. Having used none of them i don't know what is the general consensus.

A colleague has a black Macbook. It always looks so, so grubby with fingerprints and oil from your fingers, and grease. No way you can eat say a sandwich, crisps and a drink over lunch with your Macbook.

The white does hold up cosmetically much, much better imho.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

A colleague has a black Macbook. It always looks so, so grubby with fingerprints and oil from your fingers, and grease. No way you can eat say a sandwich, crisps and a drink over lunch with your Macbook.

The white does hold up cosmetically much, much better imho.

I have not the habit to eat or drink anything while using a computer. What I speak of is normal usage with reasonably clean (but not sterilised or glove-wrapped) hands.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Pierre B. 

Forgive my ignorance, but what is so special about the black model? Is there something more in the material than just the color?

a) It feels completely different to the touch.

b) It doesn't scratch *nearly* as easily - all minor scratches simply rub right out with your finger.

c) The top-case (the surface with the keyboard and trackpad) doesn't discolor or stain over time.

d) It smudges.

But smudges can be wiped right off, meaning that the BLACK holds up cosmetically MUCH better.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally Posted by analogika 

a) It feels completely different to the touch.

b) It doesn't scratch *nearly* as easily - all minor scratches simply rub right out with your finger.

c) The top-case (the surface with the keyboard and trackpad) doesn't discolor or stain over time.

d) It smudges.

But smudges can be wiped right off, meaning that the BLACK holds up cosmetically MUCH better.

lol looks like this board is going to be fun. I'll just agree to disagree on every post in advance!

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

lol looks like this board is going to be fun.

Indeed.

But from the look of things, although it seems that the black version is somewhat more special as material structure, there is also the subjective factor.

[analogika]

heh.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by analogika 

a) It feels completely different to the touch.

b) It doesn't scratch *nearly* as easily - all minor scratches simply rub right out with your finger.

c) The top-case (the surface with the keyboard and trackpad) doesn't discolor or stain over time.

d) It smudges.

But smudges can be wiped right off, meaning that the BLACK holds up cosmetically MUCH better.

You forgot to mention that the black one looks much, much better than the white one!

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

You forgot to mention that the black one looks much, much better than the white one!

But isn't that highly subjective?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Pierre B. 

But isn't that highly subjective?

which is why I didn't mention it.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Pierre B. 

But isn't that highly subjective?

Oh, yes, very!
And it's very important. Two years ago, I was helping a (female) friend of mine when buying a notebook, she insisted it was silver and blue. Didn't care what brand it was, the kind of processor or the amount of RAM it had, it had to be silver and blue

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Oh, yes, very!
And it's very important. Two years ago, I was helping a (female) friend of mine when buying a notebook, she insisted it was silver and blue. Didn't care what brand it was, the kind of processor or the amount of RAM it had, it had to be silver and blue

Girls...

Anyway, I am starting a new thread asking for some more insight.