[KevinSD]

This probably isn't the right forum to post this in, but I don't see a "general" forum. We have a leasing problem and the representative at Apple Financial we've been working with is no longer returning my calls. I was hoping that someone here knew the contact information for one of the managers at Apple Financial. Here's what is going on:

Back in 2002, 2003, and 2004, our company entered into "fair market value" leases with Apple Financial. The leases in 2002 and 2004 were for 24 months. The lease in 2003 was for 36 months. Getting right to the point, unaware of these leases (the employees that started them left the company and the knowledge was never passed on) we've still been paying into them until just recently.

All in all, we overpaid on these leases by $36,000. Surprised that this was allowed to go on for so long, I found someone at Apple Financial in asset management. I put together a spreadsheet that included when the leases started, when they ended, how much we should have paid into them, how much we overpaid, and any other pertinent information. I estimated the buyout of the leases (which would have been in 2004 and 2006), padded the buyout cost, then added 6 months worth of additional payments (further padding the cost). I then requested the remainder be credited back to us.

After almost two months of sporadic communication on the part of the representative, I was simply told "no" to my request (left in a voicemail), without any reason why or option to negotiate (I called back, but have yet to have my calls returned).

I'm am shocked that Apple, a company that I always though positioned itself as caring about their customers, is unwilling to return even one cent to us or talk to us. We aren't asking for the full overpayment to be returned, only a little over 2/3rds. I feel that's a reasonable request. For Apple to keep all of the amount we overpaid seems immoral. How can that be justified? We never received notice that the leases were coming to a close. The only reason I found out about the leases is that one closed by "itself" (after 46 months of overpayment for a total of $15,812.87 that was overpaid).

The first time I the saw the lease paperwork and the amount we over paid, I had full faith that Apple would come through and do the right thing. So I again want to say that I'm shocked Apple is unwilling to do anything.

If you know someone that can help us, please let me know. My faith that Apples cares for its long term customers (we've been buying Apple products for our business since 2001) is dwindling.

[Big Mac]

Steve's staff pays attention to customer concerns. Trying emailing him at sjobs@apple.com.

[schuey100]

You know what? I'd forget about emailing Steve's staff and take this legal immediately.

[mduell]

I'm confused... why aren't you demanding a return of the entire overpayment amount?

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by mduell 

I'm confused... why aren't you demanding a return of the entire overpayment amount?

I presume because the terms of a lease require that you either return the property or buy it outright at a predetermined price at the end of the lease. They kept the computers after the lease was up so they owe Apple something.

[Maflynn]

What Atheist says seems to make the most sense. I don't think its an overt action on apples part, they're a multi-billion dollar company and its easy for such a small (small to them) amount can get lost.

My recommendation to the OP is contact your lawyer and see what recourse you have available. Ignorance of your own contracts is not an excuse and if the lease did expire and your company through inaction failed to return the computers means that you are legally bound to pay the $$. I'm no lawyer which is why you do need sound legal advice.

[Ted L. Nancy]

Originally Posted by schuey100 

You know what? I'd forget about emailing Steve's staff and take this legal immediately.

I wouldn't "take this legal" just yet. As an attorney, I can tell you that you would be wasting even more money by unnecessarily and prematurely paying an attorney to make a few phones calls and/or write a few letters.

These types of things are best resolved first over the phone with a supervisor of some degree (just ask for a very "high up" supervisor when you actually get someone on the phone). Keep calling! They will get sick of hearing the phone ring and sick of your messages after a while.

If after a week or so the phone route gets you nowhere, then starts the letter-writing. Check out any of my 3 books for some great ideas! No, seriously, companies know that a letter means something probably got "documented." The other nice thing about a letter is that you can send it to MULTIPLE people at the same time. For example, make copies and address one to the VP of the financial department, one to the legal department, one to Steve Jobs, etc. This may seem like pestering, but it works, and it will get those people to put the letter in the hands of the person who can help you.

By the way, regardless of whatever purchase agreement may have been tied into your lease agreement - or whatever else is compelling you to pay a mere 2/3 of your overpayment - you should know that, legally, you may be entitled to the full amount of your payments. (Without reading your lease agreement, I cannot make any definite statements, since your company may have agreed to automatically extend the lease if the products were not purchased.) This is grounded on a legal doctrine known simply as mistake. The idea is that Apple/the people behind the lease should not be unjustly enriched by your mistake. I would demand that the full overpayment be returned, and then tell them that you are willing to negotiate a purchase as if you had you had done so upon lease expiration. That would be the fair and equitable solution.

Not to mention, in the legal world, the negotiations usually begin with an offer being countered for about 10% of the amount (i.e. if I say I want $100,000, you come back and say, no, we'll give you $10,000).

Then again, realize Apple will see it differently: Tons of people could use this same routine to change their lease terms to something more favorable to them (such as retaining products beyond their lease by continuing to make lease payments but without purchasing the product, then claiming that it was all a mistake and that they deserve to apply their payments towards the value of the purchase had it been made at the lease expiration).

[KevinSD]

Thank you all for your replies. I've been trying to work this out through the financial rep over the phone, but as I said in my first post, she isn't returning my calls anymore. So I called our sales rep at Apple (he pointed me to her in the first place). He told me that Apple Financial has nothing to do with Apple. And the financial rep I've been working with is a GE Captial employee, not an Apple employee. He did manage to get in contact with her and he said she'll call me.

I would like to try to get this resolved without legal action, but I am having trouble getting a hold of a manager. Thanks for your advice Ted, I will try to keep calling for a few more days. If I don't get anywhere then it sounds like we have no choice but to seek legal advice.

[Ted L. Nancy]

Originally Posted by KevinSD 

If I don't get anywhere then it sounds like we have no choice but to seek legal advice.

To "take the case," expect a minimum $5000 retainer. If you want a brief meeting with an attorney for advice (which will amount to little else than whether it is worth it to sue or not), and perhaps have him write a short letter, it could be under $1000. Just giving you a heads-up.

Hope the Apple Financial/GE gal calls you back and that you can work it out with her.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by KevinSD 

Back in 2002, 2003, and 2004, our company entered into "fair market value" leases with Apple Financial. The leases in 2002 and 2004 were for 24 months. The lease in 2003 was for 36 months. Getting right to the point, unaware of these leases (the employees that started them left the company and the knowledge was never passed on) we've still been paying into them until just recently.

All in all, we overpaid on these leases by $36,000. [...]

No offense, but maybe this should be taken as a $36,000 lesson for the company. Regardless of turnover, expenses should be accounted for in some system so that the accounting staff (regardless of when they joined) can easily see what is due when and when it needs to stop. Additionally, does the company not do annual audits? Those also should have caught this.

That said, I wish you the best of luck with AFS/GE.

Edit: P.S. Maybe you already have this, but www.applefin.com is AFS's website with contact info.

[KevinSD]

In this situation, someone that is caring and understanding will do the right thing. Someone driven only by money will not. I believe Apple to be the former. At least that is how they position themselves; that they care about their customers.

Accepting money way above and beyond what should have been paid is wrong. If I realized I overcharged someone, I would absolutely try to work something out with them.

[Maflynn]

So you're saying its apple's fault for not catching your over payments. I'm with tooki in that auditing or some internal controls should have flagged this long ago.

This is not apple mistake but your company's I can understand and empathize at the headache that this turned into by trying to untangle this mess after the fact but still it was your companies money.

[tooki]

There's also the question of which party, if either, is contractually obligated to catch this. If I had to hedge my bets, it'd be that the contract is written in the lender's favor, and that the onus falls on the customer to decide what to do at lease end. If, on the other hand, the contract states that it the lease should automatically end at X point in time, or that they will send lease-end documentation (and you can show that that didn't occur), you might have a chance. The worst possibility is if they can prove that they sent lease-end documents and that they got ignored. In that case, you've probably not got a leg to stand on.