[RobOnTheCape]

Hello all,

My wife just mentioned that her macbook has been running slow for about a week. icons bounce much longer than normal prior to loading, and the fields slowly fill when they should just fill in almost immediately as they did. Is there a utility in the OS(10.5), or is there something I can download to run a diagnostic and hopefully correct.

Thanks

[Waragainstsleep]

Open disk utility in your utilities folder and run permissions repair and then verify the disk.
If you get a bunch of red text warnings, you'll need to either boot from a Mac OS X DVD and run repair disk or boot single user mode and run FSCK -fy (Single user mode is done by booting with Command-S.

[SierraDragon]

Check how full the boot drive is. Hard drives slow as they fill, so I recommend that drives used for real work (as opposed to just routine backup) stay less than ~70% full as a rough guideline. And more importantly, drives used for OS/apps/AP Library can become unstable or exhibit anomalous app behavior when they get overfilled (~85% full).

Also I recommend always repairing Permissions immediately before and immediately after every install of any kind.

Some folks consider it a waste of time but after years of listening to others have problems while I have had problem-free usage of heavy graphics apps (Aperture, Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Dreamweaver, Painter, etc.) on multiple Macs I am fully convinced that although IMO repairing Permissions is not a "fix" it is very useful maintenance for users of heavy graphics apps.


-Allen

[RobOnTheCape]

Hi and thanks for the quick replies. As soon as she mentioned the problem I did run a check on the permissions. Lots of repairs, but nothing popped up in red. I also looked at her drive, and she's at about 60% full, thus still ok.

[Waragainstsleep]

Permissions never give you red, only the disk verify will do that.

[RobOnTheCape]

Didn't realize. Thanks

[Spheric Harlot]

Also, permissions repair in this case is complete bogus and a waste of time.

Incorrect permission cause stuff not to work, not to slow down to a crawl. And even that *extremely* rarely, since 10.4.

If the "verify disk" (NOT "verify permissions") command didn't turn up any issues, and you still have a good 15-20 GB of free space on the boot drive, then take a look at the Activity Viewer, and have it show "All Processes". Click on the "%CPU" header to have it sort by processor usage.

See if there's something hogging the processor.

I've seen a runaway HP printer driver hobble machines for weeks on end - it chokes up on a print job and churns away like crazy (and continues after a restart).

Also, you should ALWAYS have a full backup of everything. On the off-chance that it's a dying hard drive.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

...you should ALWAYS have a full backup of everything. On the off-chance that it's a dying hard drive.

Yup. All drives fail, it is just a question of when, and slowing performance is a common symptom.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Also I recommend always repairing Permissions immediately before and immediately after every install of any kind.

That's a wonderful thing to do. Wonderful, that is, If your intent is to waste TONS of time and accomplish most likely nothing beneficial whatsoever.

Allen, you're believing in and perpetuating OS X superstition. Repairing permissions as a perfunctory troubleshooting technique is the superstitious repair equivalent to the classic Mac OS's rebuilding the desktop. Permissions repair only reverts permissions on OS files that may have changed, and you're very unlikely to have bad permissions. (I think Apple fixed issues that made corrupted permissions more likely in the early versions of OS X, but don't quote me on that.) Having a permissions problem that can be fixed by Repair Permissions is very rare, and repairing permissions certainly won't do anything to speed up a failing drive. I really feel sorry for you if you've been wasting your time running needless permissions repairs before and after any installation. I think this came up before and you were previously told this was a completely unnecessary practice of yours. (Either it was you or someone else had the same bright suggestion to repair permissions before and after wiping their noses.)

I expect more from long time members than terrible maintenance advice like that. I guess the repair permissions voodoo really continues to be very strong. A pity. I really hope one day not to have to continue explaining this.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

...you're believing in and perpetuating OS X superstition... ...terrible maintenance advice like that. I guess the repair permissions voodoo really continues to be very strong. A pity. I really hope one day not to have to continue explaining this.

Apple goes to a lot of trouble maintaining Permissions repair capability and telling us how and why to do it if it is simply superstition as you say.

Perhaps if you explain it to Apple they will change the tech article where Apple states "Incorrect permission settings may cause unexpected behavior."
Troubleshooting permissions issues in Mac OS X:

"Issues Related to Permissions
Incorrect permission settings may cause unexpected behavior. Here are several examples with troubleshooting suggestions:
• Application installers, Applications folder
A third-party application installer incorrectly sets permissions on the files it installs, or even the entire Applications folder.
• (continues...)"

Then in Dec 2010 Apple revisits "Repair Disk Permissions" for OS X 10.0-10.6 in another tech article:
About Disk Utility's Repair Disk Permissions feature

As I said in the post, IMO repairing Permissions is not a "fix" - I just happen to believe that it makes sense concurrent with installs. And I agree that repairing Permissions often has no substantive impact, but IMO when installer-induced anomalies exist it can be beneficial. Certainly it does no harm.

There is no doubt about the fact that OS X is improving. My experience with Permissions repair is by definition with older OS X versions; for all I know v10.6.7 that I am using now fully obviates any value to repairing Permissions. However the fact that it does no harm plus it seemed to do good in the past is enough for me to continue doing it until Apple suggests otherwise or something else proves to me that it is indeed terrible maintenance advice.

-Allen

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Apple goes to a lot of trouble maintaining Permissions repair capability and telling us how and why to do it if it is simply superstition as you say.

Perhaps if you explain it to Apple they will change the tech article where Apple states "Incorrect permission settings may cause unexpected behavior."
Troubleshooting permissions issues in Mac OS X:

There's a rather marked difference between troubleshooting and repair procedures.

How you go from "Issues related to permissions" and a full technical background on how they work, and instructions on how to repair them, to

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Also I recommend always repairing Permissions immediately before and immediately after every install of any kind.

is a complete mystery to me.


Of course, I recommend re-tightening all bolts on the engine of your car immediately before and immediately after every fluid change of any kind (including gasoline).

There is no doubt that mass production has improved over the past 100 years, but it does no harm plus it seemed to do good in the past is enough for me to continue doing it until car manufacturers suggest otherwise or something else proves to me that it is indeed terrible maintenance advice.


Seriously, that's perfectly fine, but expect to get knocked flat if you advise others on a public forum to waste their time performing unnecessary "preventative maintenance" on a regular basis.

[AKcrab]

(Credit goes to CharlesS)

[SierraDragon]

Seems simple enough to me. Although there are just a few major installers there are many installer mods out there. And like Apple discusses "A third-party application installer incorrectly sets permissions on the files it installs, or even the entire Applications folder."

So I repair Permissions before installation (takes one minute on my box) so that the installer is working to the default Permissions, and after installation just to repair whatever changes some app's installer may have done. Seems like reasonable preventative behavior when running multiple challenging graphics apps, hardly terrible advice.

In the 2000-2008 time frame I have no doubt that Permissions repair concurrent to installs was worthwhile for those of us challenging hardware limits with print graphics. Simple reinstallation of an Epson pro printer driver (a common and effective troubleshooting technique) would routinely corrupt many thousands of Permissions. And like Apple says, "Incorrect permission settings may cause unexpected behavior."

There were quite a number of other experienced Photoshop users at that time that also felt Permissions repair was helpful. Today I am unsure as to whether it helps or not; I no longer daily print lots of large photo-quality images, nor do I regularly see thousands of incorrect Permissions after an install. But I have been an aggressive Aperture user since 2005 and have suffered none of the hundreds of operational anomalies other folks have seen through 3 versions. Obviously I cannot correlate that to Permissions repair, but since it is fast, easy, may be helpful and does no harm, why not?

Kind of like inspecting for loose/broken fittings during each oil change...

-Allen

[Spheric Harlot]

I prefer to use repair tools to fix actual problems as they arise, but whatever makes you feel comfortable with your box.

It IS bad advice on something like this public forum, because it serves to make people nervous about their machines, especially since a permissions check ALWAYS comes back with at least a dozen "error" messages (and none of them are fixed).

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Also I recommend always repairing Permissions immediately before and immediately after every install of any kind.

Oh no, not this again. Repairing permissions after an install seldom does anything useful, but repairing permissions before an install does nothing at all. You know how the installer asks for your admin password when you run it? That causes it to run as root, which means it ignores permissions entirely! Everything on the drive could be set to be non-readable and an installer that is running as root would not care! Running the repair permissions process before an install does absolutely nothing but wste your time.

[Spheric Harlot]

I find it immensely irritating that most software updates under 10.6 no longer require a password.

[SierraDragon]

I do not believe that all installers run as root user, but I could be wrong.

-Allen

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I find it immensely irritating that most software updates under 10.6 no longer require a password.

Me too. It seems like risky behavior.

[Spheric Harlot]

Come to think of it, I suppose it's undramatic since 10.6 relies upon signatures, and trusts its own Apple-signed packages.

Anything dodgy will still require a password, so you can still tell people to be wary of anything that asks for one.

In fact, it makes entering the password less inflationary - which invariably lessened attention (rather like automatically clicking "OK" on any dialog you see under Windows).

[P]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I find it immensely irritating that most software updates under 10.6 no longer require a password.

The permissions setup under 10.6 is not any more lenient than earlier versions - in fact, they're slightly tighter than they were in 10.0. Still not tight enough for my taste in the case of /Library, but I hear that 10.7 finally fixes that.

No, I think that the difference is that newer updaters try to get by with only admin privileges, which can only be considered a good thing.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

There is no doubt about the fact that OS X is improving. My experience with Permissions repair is by definition with older OS X versions; for all I know v10.6.7 that I am using now fully obviates any value to repairing Permissions. However the fact that it does no harm plus it seemed to do good in the past is enough for me to continue doing it until Apple suggests otherwise or something else proves to me that it is indeed terrible maintenance advice.

This thread right here is an example of why it is terrible advice:

Logic Pro Help :: View topic - OS X and Logic test

The poor guy was convinced for DAYS that he had to completely wipe and reinstall his entire studio set-up, partly because some idiot couldn't write a proper installer, and partly because "verify permissions always has many 'permissions differ...'"

[RobOnTheCape]

Not to derail a derailed thread, but I used CCleaner, and her mac is zipping along fine once again.

Thanks

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

This thread right here is an example of why it is terrible advice:

Logic Pro Help :: View topic - OS X and Logic test

The poor guy was convinced for DAYS that he had to completely wipe and reinstall his entire studio set-up, partly because some idiot couldn't write a proper installer, and partly because "verify permissions always has many 'permissions differ...'"

Personally I have never recommended "verifying" Permissions or being concerned about the report. A fast repair of Permissions around installations just makes sense to me. How a quick repair of Permissions becomes "terrible advice" I do not get.

Improper installers such as described in the thread are exactly why I suggest repairing Permissions around installations.

-Allen

[Big Mac]

First, Sierra, if your concern is about installers corrupting OS permissions, why do you recommend repairing before as well as after? Secondly,. how often do you find that permissions have been corrupted after an installer has been used?