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Next Generation MacBook Pro (Page 4)
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Jun 27, 2012, 06:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
It's on "Best for Retina" mode. The default set up.

I also just noticed selecting a top site in Safari... the scale animation as it opens is also choppy. Arrrrgh.
That last I believe is something they mentioned at WWDC: More of Safari will use CoreAnimation, ie be hardware accelerated, in 5.2 (Mountain Lion)

The GPU in the latest MBP is the Geforce GT650M, codename GK107M from the Kepler family. It is quite a development from the last generation, and Apple hasn't used nVidia since the GT325M Way Back When. It is quite possible that the drivers are not in very good condition, and that things like animations are not accelerated at this point. It may also be that the discrete graphics are not even in use, since the system usually runs on the integrated graphics to save energy, and the Intel drivers are infamously terrible. The resolution is not crazy high - 2880*1800 is not too far off from 2560*1440, something the weaker 4670M in the first 27" iMac could handle just fine. Even the 9400M handled 1920*1080 without problems, and the GT650M is a much stronger chip.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 11:00 AM
 
P is right: Anandtech has already tested hardware acceleration in the Developer Preview. The framerate is ~50 % higher with hardware acceleration enabled. Even though they conclude this isn't as high as with standard-res displays where current Macs easily manage 46~60 fps, they measure 20~30 fps instead of 18~24 fps.
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Jun 27, 2012, 11:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
That last I believe is something they mentioned at WWDC: More of Safari will use CoreAnimation, ie be hardware accelerated, in 5.2 (Mountain Lion)

The GPU in the latest MBP is the Geforce GT650M, codename GK107M from the Kepler family. It is quite a development from the last generation, and Apple hasn't used nVidia since the GT325M Way Back When. It is quite possible that the drivers are not in very good condition, and that things like animations are not accelerated at this point. It may also be that the discrete graphics are not even in use, since the system usually runs on the integrated graphics to save energy, and the Intel drivers are infamously terrible. The resolution is not crazy high - 2880*1800 is not too far off from 2560*1440, something the weaker 4670M in the first 27" iMac could handle just fine. Even the 9400M handled 1920*1080 without problems, and the GT650M is a much stronger chip.
I've got Safari 6.0. And why have my posts been deleted in this thread?
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
P is right: Anandtech has already tested hardware acceleration in the Developer Preview. The framerate is ~50 % higher with hardware acceleration enabled. Even though they conclude this isn't as high as with standard-res displays where current Macs easily manage 46~60 fps, they measure 20~30 fps instead of 18~24 fps.
I'm scratching my head because this is stutterville. I have in Energy Saver the cycle GPU enabled for better energy. I'm running Mountain Lion Preview 2 with Safari 6.0.

If I'm doing it wrong fine. But this thing is brand new. I'm just waiting for a flood of comments about it. I hope that if it's on all the units that it's a trashed driver thing that will be fixed with the retail version of Mountain Lion. And did you delete my posts?
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I've got Safari 6.0. And why have my posts been deleted in this thread?
You're complaining about the performance in a beta?

I cannot see that there have been any posts deleted in this thread.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 11:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
You're complaining about the performance in a beta?

I cannot see that there have been any posts deleted in this thread.
Uh... A Beta that's on the cusp of being a Retail version?

If you pan back in the thread the post you responded to is gone. I've PM'd you.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 11:45 AM
 
The post I responded to is here, it is the last on page 3.

Even if the release of the software is soon, the current Safari release is a preview intended to show the features available. It doesn't surprise me at all that performance is less than optimal. There may actually be real debugging code there. Really, the resolution on the MBP:TNG is only slightly higher than what the 30" Cinema display sported years ago, most probably run by old GT120 cards, and the animations worked well there. It really shouldn't stutter.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
The post I responded to is here, it is the last on page 3.

Even if the release of the software is soon, the current Safari release is a preview intended to show the features available. It doesn't surprise me at all that performance is less than optimal. There may actually be real debugging code there. Really, the resolution on the MBP:TNG is only slightly higher than what the 30" Cinema display sported years ago, most probably run by old GT120 cards, and the animations worked well there. It really shouldn't stutter.
1. It is stuttering.
2. The performance with Mountain Lion on my new, non-Retina MBP is better. No stutter.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 01:14 PM
 
Man I might take this back. It's choppy and stuttering all over the place. Even typing sometimes you get the dreaded freeze and hiccup as it chokes to catch up with you. Maybe it is just me and my Developer Preview... Then I read this:

I read this over at Anandtech: maybe I'm not alone?

To be quite honest, the hardware in the rMBP isn’t enough to deliver a consistently smooth experience across all applications. At 2880 x 1800 most interactions are smooth but things like zooming windows or scrolling on certain web pages is clearly sub-30fps. At the higher scaled resolutions, since the GPU has to render as much as 9.2MP, even UI performance can be sluggish. There’s simply nothing that can be done at this point - Apple is pushing the limits of the hardware we have available today, far beyond what any other OEM has done. Future iterations of the Retina Display MacBook Pro will have faster hardware with embedded DRAM that will help mitigate this problem. But there are other limitations: many elements of screen drawing are still done on the CPU, and as largely serial architectures their ability to scale performance with dramatically higher resolutions is limited.

Some elements of drawing in Safari for example aren’t handled by the GPU.

Quickly scrolling up and down on the AnandTech home page will peg one of the four IVB cores in the rMBP at 100%:

To quantify exactly what I was seeing I measured frame rate while scrolling as quickly as possible through my Facebook news feed in Safari on the rMBP as well as my 2011 15-inch High Res MacBook Pro. While last year’s MBP delivered anywhere from 46 - 60 fps during this test, the rMBP hovered around 20 fps (18 - 24 fps was the typical range).

AnandTech - The next-gen MacBook Pro with Retina Display Review
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
If you pan back in the thread the post you responded to is gone. I've PM'd you.
If there are deleted posts, then they are visible to the staff. There are no deleted posts in this thread.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I'm scratching my head because this is stutterville. I have in Energy Saver the cycle GPU enabled for better energy. I'm running Mountain Lion Preview 2 with Safari 6.0.

If I'm doing it wrong fine.
I don't think you're doing anything wrong. It's just that Apple is pushing the envelope here.
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Jun 27, 2012, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don't think you're doing anything wrong. It's just that Apple is pushing the envelope here.
Yeah, Apple's 1st iterations of a lot of products end up being high-priced and a bit rough around the edges. Not rough in terms of build quality, but rough in terms of specs vs. software support and things like overall usability feel in the OS.

One not so distant example of this was the first MacBook Air. It was a high-dollar machine with an excellent form factor, but it was slow with its 1.8" PATA drive. You could upgrade to a 64 GB SSD, but because of SSD costs, it would set you back a decent amount for extremely limited storage.

Then it was the 11" Air which was even slower and some people complained about hinge weakness.

TNG MBP is definitely pushing the envelope too. It's a first iteration machine with a GeForce GT 650M. Honestly I don't know how appropriate it is with retina, but it's not known as an especially fast GPU. However, I suspect a big part of the problem is the OS's optimization for this type of functionality. It might not be a GPU issue at all. I wonder if say 10.8.2 Mountain Lion will improve things greatly, as it may get improved OS optimizations and, if necessary, better GPU drivers. Oh and maybe the software itself will be better optimized too.

By that time, the machine might get 802.11ac too.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Yeah, Apple's 1st iterations of a lot of products end up being high-priced and a bit rough around the edges. Not rough in terms of build quality, but rough in terms of specs vs. software support and things like overall usability feel in the OS.

One not so distant example of this was the first MacBook Air. It was a high-dollar machine with an excellent form factor, but it was slow with its 1.8" PATA drive. You could upgrade to a 64 GB SSD, but because of SSD costs, it would set you back a decent amount for extremely limited storage.

Then it was the 11" Air which was even slower and some people complained about hinge weakness.

TNG MBP is definitely pushing the envelope too. It's a first iteration machine with a GeForce GT 650M. Honestly I don't know how appropriate it is with retina, but it's not known as an especially fast GPU. However, I suspect a big part of the problem is the OS's optimization for this type of functionality. It might not be a GPU issue at all. I wonder if say 10.8.2 Mountain Lion will improve things greatly, as it may get improved OS optimizations and, if necessary, better GPU drivers. Oh and maybe the software itself will be better optimized too.

By that time, the machine might get 802.11ac too.
This.

I too owned the first MacBook Air and it was a POS. Brutal. Slow and overheated. I feel like I own almost the exact same thing. This things is so bloody slow and choppy. Everything. All the developers gathered around this morning and we scrolled and swiped around and they all saw the stuttering.

I pray, hope... that it's OS optimizations that are needed because I simply can't recommend this machine right now. It's too slow. I just got finished looking at a 2 page PDF with no images and scrolling was choppy.

By the way, I'm on the dedicated graphics card: turned switching off. Still choppy. I've got an iMovie export going in the background now to really stress it. The heat is high. The problem with it is that the heat comes up through the keyboard more than it did with my previous MBPs.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 04:13 PM
 
I had an original MBA and I thought it was fine.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 05:12 PM
 
rMBP in the Apple Store worked fine for me.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by SierraDragon View Post
rMBP in the Apple Store worked fine for me.
Worked fine for me too. But being in a store around a bunch of people playing with something for a few minutes and owning it...

I can really tell. I guess you haven't read the Anandtech article about how basically they say the hardware simply can't support this screen yet. That Apple's pushing the envelope beyond what the hardware is capable. My experience so far, as someone who is using this everyday, is that they've gone beyond what the thing is really capable of.

I can't make too many conclusions yet because they may improve the GPU driver but right now it's crap.
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I too owned the first MacBook Air and it was a POS. Brutal. Slow and overheated.
Boy, Apple has sure gone to shit since Steve died, ain't it?
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Boy, Apple has sure gone to shit since Steve died, ain't it?
Boy, Apple has sure gone to shit since Steve died, ain't it?
     
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Jun 27, 2012, 08:25 PM
 
wow.
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Jun 27, 2012, 08:33 PM
 
Apple Reportedly Replacing "Ghosting" Retina MacBook Pros

It appears that some folks who hopped onto the Retina MacBook Pro train early are having difficulty with image retention (also known as ghosting) on their lovely new displays. According to a thread over on the Apple Support Communities, a user noticed the problem as early as June 16th, a mere 5 days after the product was first available for shipment.

Some readers on the ASC forum have reported the image retention issue with as little as 20 minutes worth of use. However it’s well worth noting that the problem isn’t happening to everyone, and image retention isn’t uncommon on IPS panels such as the one used in the new Pro.


     
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Jun 27, 2012, 11:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Apple Reportedly Replacing "Ghosting" Retina MacBook Pros

It appears that some folks who hopped onto the Retina MacBook Pro train early are having difficulty with image retention (also known as ghosting) on their lovely new displays. According to a thread over on the Apple Support Communities, a user noticed the problem as early as June 16th, a mere 5 days after the product was first available for shipment.

Some readers on the ASC forum have reported the image retention issue with as little as 20 minutes worth of use. However it’s well worth noting that the problem isn’t happening to everyone, and image retention isn’t uncommon on IPS panels such as the one used in the new Pro.


I wish my frame rates would increase. It's chopville man.
     
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Jun 28, 2012, 12:21 AM
 
Return it if it is not acceptable. Easy enough.

Or just give it to me and I will force myself to cope.
     
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Jun 28, 2012, 02:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by SierraDragon View Post
Return it if it is not acceptable. Easy enough.

Or just give it to me and I will force myself to cope.
Ya... I'm hoping it's a driver issue but I may just return it. I think you'd like it for a few days and then realize the choppiness just isn't worth it.

Tonight I played a 3 second QuickTime intro vid I made and it looked choppy. Played it on the new iMac sitting next to it and it was smooth. No comparison. I think the Retina screen is a huge technical challenge for Apple and that we won't be seeing Retina iMacs anytime soon. It's a huge resource pig beyond anything. The performance just isn't there, taking into account that this is in fact not just a driver issue, but that the pixel density is just too high to drive.
     
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Jun 28, 2012, 06:08 AM
 
What did he get banned for?

Surrealness?

Or insulting PMs?
     
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Jun 29, 2012, 05:30 PM
 
AnandTech: Driving the Retina Display: A Performance Discussion

To be quite honest, the hardware in the rMBP isn’t enough to deliver a consistently smooth experience across all applications. At 2880 x 1800 most interactions are smooth but things like zooming windows or scrolling on certain web pages is clearly sub-30fps. At the higher scaled resolutions, since the GPU has to render as much as 9.2MP, even UI performance can be sluggish. There’s simply nothing that can be done at this point - Apple is pushing the limits of the hardware we have available today, far beyond what any other OEM has done. Future iterations of the Retina Display MacBook Pro will have faster hardware with embedded DRAM that will help mitigate this problem. But there are other limitations: many elements of screen drawing are still done on the CPU, and as largely serial architectures their ability to scale performance with dramatically higher resolutions is limited.

Some elements of drawing in Safari for example aren’t handled by the GPU. Quickly scrolling up and down on the AnandTech home page will peg one of the four IVB cores in the rMBP at 100%:

The GPU has an easy time with its part of the process but the CPU’s workload is borderline too much for a single core to handle. Throw a more complex website at it and things get bad quickly. Facebook combines a lot of compressed images with text - every single image is decompressed on the CPU before being handed off to the GPU. Combine that with other elements that are processed on the CPU and you get a recipe for choppy scrolling.

To quantify exactly what I was seeing I measured frame rate while scrolling as quickly as possible through my Facebook news feed in Safari on the rMBP as well as my 2011 15-inch High Res MacBook Pro. While last year’s MBP delivered anywhere from 46 - 60 fps during this test, the rMBP hovered around 20 fps (18 - 24 fps was the typical range).

Whereas I would consider the rMBP experience under Lion to be borderline unacceptable, everything is significantly better under Mountain Lion. Don’t expect buttery smoothness across the board, you’re still asking a lot of the CPU and GPU, but it’s a lot better.
     
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Jul 10, 2012, 01:09 PM
 
MacBook Pro 10,2 - This computer doesn't officially exist. Judging by the name, it's a 13" Retina MacBook Pro



13-Inch Retina MacBook Pro Shows Up in Benchmarks

In comparison, the new non-Retina 13-inch MacBook Pro carries the model identifier "MacBookPro9,2", while the 15-inch non-Retina model is "MacBookPro9,1" and the corresponding Retina model is "MacBookPro10,1".
     
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Jul 11, 2012, 03:12 AM
 
But there is still no info on the most interesting stat - which graphics it will use.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 12, 2012, 01:56 AM
 
I've only had my MBPRD for a few days but the performance is outstanding.

Surfing the web (including this site) using production Safari under Lion is smooth as silk.
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Jul 15, 2012, 10:30 PM
 
Uh... why is this reply window so huge? Jesus. Not sure the guys who did the site redesign studied Fitt's...

Anyway, my performance has improved as I'm now using ML Gold Master. However, it's still glitchy.

Try scrolling this page in the thread fast up or down. I see gray banding: it seems to shut off the content if you scroll too fast. It's weird. Anyone see this? I should video it.
     
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Jul 15, 2012, 10:45 PM
 
Here's a video of my rMBP running GM ML scrolling this page up and down. You'll see some stuttering and how content gets greyed out when you scroll fast.

http://s675.photobucket.com/albums/vv116/freudling/?action=view&current=MLGoldMasterrMBPFastscroll.mp 4
     
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Jul 15, 2012, 11:35 PM
 
My MBPRD running Lion scrolls perfectly smoothly and clearly. No problems at all.
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Jul 16, 2012, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
My MBPRD running Lion scrolls perfectly smoothly and clearly. No problems at all.
Demonstrate that it does. Post a video of yourself rapidly scrolling this page.

Thanks.
     
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Jul 16, 2012, 10:14 PM
 
No problem.
How did you do your screen capture?
I'd like to use the same technique so we are comparing AAPLs to AAPLs.
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Jul 17, 2012, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
No problem.
How did you do your screen capture?
I'd like to use the same technique so we are comparing AAPLs to AAPLs.
Quicktime. You can do screen captures with it.
     
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Jul 17, 2012, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Ultra thin, but Pro.
...
What do you mean by "...but Pro"?
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 04:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
What do you mean by "...but Pro"?
Fast CPU (which for me is not that important), good GPU, good memory options, good storage options, decent options for ports for connectivity. Plus a few other things here and there.
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 06:26 AM
 
Greetings. I am unable to delete my posts, and apparently you moderators are on some kind of a strike.

Therefore, I have removed the content of the original post by hand.

I am asking for this post to be deleted, since I don't seem to have the option to do that myself.
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Jul 18, 2012, 06:57 AM
 
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Jul 18, 2012, 09:02 AM
 
Tell me about your machine?

What OS are you running?

How much RAM?

You're not getting the grey banding like me. But it looks like it just jumps on you when you go fast. That doesn't look smooth at all.

Thanks.
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 11:23 AM
 
That looked as smooth as my non-retina MacBook.
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 11:35 AM
 
MacBook Pro with Retina Display

16GB RAM

768GB SSD

2.7GHz i7

When I use the up/down arrows to go directly to the top/bottom, it's immediate; maybe that's why you think it's not smooth.
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Jul 18, 2012, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
That looked as smooth as my non-retina MacBook.
The scrolling was jumping from block to block. It was demonstrably not smooth. But he's not getting the grey banding like me.
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
MacBook Pro with Retina Display
16GB RAM
768GB SSD
2.7GHz i7
When I use the up/down arrows to go directly to the top/bottom, it's immediate; maybe that's why you think it's not smooth.
What operating system version are you running?
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
What operating system version are you running?
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
I've only had my MBPRD for a few days but the performance is outstanding.
Surfing the web (including this site) using production Safari under Lion is smooth as silk.
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
My MBPRD running Lion scrolls perfectly smoothly and clearly. No problems at all.
if you read his posts you'd realize he just bought it so it's running the latest version of Lion. c'mon man.
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 05:52 PM
 
I don't know what your definition of smooth is but quickly scrolling from the top to the bottom (and vice versa) is certainly smooth; in fact it's darn near instantaneous.

I'm running stock up-to-date Lion 10.7.4.
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Jul 18, 2012, 05:53 PM
 
Thanks for pointing that out!
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Jul 19, 2012, 09:22 PM
 
I don't assume anything. I just bought my rMBP and I installed ML on it.

How is anyone to know? The answer is they don't unless you state the facts. He could have changed it. I also am not sure what version number of Safari he's running. "Production version" is vague. I need build numbers of each Safari and OS X.
     
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Jul 20, 2012, 02:35 AM
 
I'm assuming you're referring to me. I can't see any way to tell who is replying to who in the forums (unless they quote; was it always like this?).

Safari: 5.1.7 (7534.57.4)
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Jul 20, 2012, 09:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
I'm assuming you're referring to me. I can't see any way to tell who is replying to who in the forums (unless they quote; was it always like this?).
Safari: 5.1.7 (7534.57.4)
msuper69:

I'll ask again:

1. What version of OS X are you running? Please post the version number and build number.
     
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Jul 20, 2012, 10:04 AM
 
10.7.4
Build 11E2620
HyperNova Software, LLC
Check out SuperScanner! for the iPad
     
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Jul 20, 2012, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
10.7.4
Build 11E2620
Thanks.

So right away we're running different systems.

I'm Safari Version 6.0 (8536.25) and ML Gold Master 10.8 12A269. This is likely Safari 6 that is causing the grey banding in the browser. I don't get the banding in any other program that I know of.
     
 
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