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Scotttheking · Apr 4, 2002, 01:39 AM

There has been some talk going around about getting dedicated crunchers, and some people may also be curious, so I figured I'd put up some info about it for those who are interested.

Here are some pointers of what to look for / get for each project for both home built and store bought.

Home built:

Athlon based system. It's the best DC processor, it's good at everything, if not the best. Go for a new one, marketed as the Athlon XP, if you can. Note that the Athlon XP systems have model numbers, not mHz speeds. The 1500+ is a 1.33GHz, and for every 100 increase in model #, the processor speed goes up 66(.6)MHz.
Cheap motherboard. You don't need to overclock it, and it doesn't pay to buy a board that can. The ECS K7S5A motherboard is looking like a pretty good deal, and it has onboard LAN. Just a warning though, it requires at least a linux kernel of 2.4 for the LAN to work.
Ram. Don't get expensive really high quality stuff. But then, don't get garbage. Choose what you want, and you won't need more then 128, 256 for some projects (note that this assumes linux as the os)
Old PCI video card. You want to save power, and you won't be turning it on much. Go for PCI over AGP, as AGP can steal processor power.
Cheap HD. You don't need much, a 2GB will be plenty. Don't buy a high quality drive for this.
Case/Power Supply. Do it without a case if you can, or else get the cheapest one you can find. Get a smaller power supply, but don't go too low.
Cd/floppy/keyboard/mouse/monitor. Have one set, and switch em around as need be.
OS. I recommend linux be used, as it's easiest to work with, and stable. I have a machine that has power and ethernet, and that's it. It's controlled via SSH, and just sits there crunching 24/7.

Store bought system (specials, etc)
These are rarely a good price, but some people can't / won't build a system, so here is some info.

Processor. Here, it depends what project. A celeron is ok at RC5, and not really good at anything else. A Pentium 2/3 is ok at any project. The Pentium 4 is decent at seti, sucks for rc5, and is fine on ubero, and I believe ok on folding. Durons are ok at rc5, folding, and aren't great for seti, ubero should be fine, but unknown. Athlon is the best processor if you can get one.
Ram. Make sure it's got at least 128MB, or else you are paying more to upgrade it.
OS. If it's running something and it works, you can leave it, but I recommend putting linux on it (ok, I always recommend linux for PCs )

Hopefully this is a helpful guide, if you have any questions or comments, feel free to ask, if you see good store specials that are good for crunching, post them here so others who are interested can maybe get them.

I'll start that out.

Fry's electronics runs a special about once a month where they offer a athlon xp processor with a motherboard, usually for $179. This is a pretty good deal, and it's where I've gotten my last 2 mobos/procs from. The athlon xp is usually cheaper this way, and the motherboard comes out to $32, which is a great price. The mobo has always been the above listed ECS K7S5A motherboard.
Why so cheap? They want you to buy the ram and other parts from them. They charge way too much for ram, so get it elsewhere.

Shaktai · Apr 4, 2002, 03:25 AM

Very helpful. Thanks Scott.

I probably overspent a little, but what the heck. It is all working. Had problems getting the ethernet to work on the 1 gig, but no problems at all with the Athlon. Want to pick up some kind of a monitor switch one of these days, so that I don't have to manually move the video cable back and forth. (only have one monitor for both PC's. Just running Windows XP as that is what came on the machines, and don't want to spend any more on them, unless for memory. Celeron has 128mb RAM and Athlon has 256 mb.

[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: Shaktai ]

gumby5647 · Apr 4, 2002, 08:52 AM

now that you've done PC's, how bout doing Mac's?

Scotttheking · Apr 4, 2002, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by gumby5647:
now that you've done PC's, how bout doing Mac's?

Not worth the price for any performance you get, even RC5.

rkadowns · Apr 4, 2002, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Scotttheking:


Not worth the price for any performance you get, even RC5.

Too bad Yellow briQ's are'nt about $1k cheaper. I think a rack or case full of those would be killer...

gumby5647 · Apr 4, 2002, 12:38 PM

so my 30 dollar 6100/66 256l2 cache, 500MB, 40MB isn't worth it for SETI?

Bockie · Apr 4, 2002, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Scotttheking:


Not worth the price for any performance you get, even RC5.

Who buys a Mac purely for DCing?

...someone with more money than sense!

...then again, many would say the same about buying a Mac over a peecee.

gumby5647 · Apr 4, 2002, 01:50 PM

*shrug*

It was only 30 bucks. Plus it will come in handy if mr. iMac won't work...seeing how i don't have a good back up Mac....

Shaktai · Apr 4, 2002, 02:53 PM

I've got two macs for doing all the things I want to do, and two PC's just for crunching. More cost effective that way by far.

Scotttheking · Apr 4, 2002, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by gumby5647:
so my 30 dollar 6100/66 256l2 cache, 500MB, 40MB isn't worth it for SETI?

nope

reader50 · Apr 4, 2002, 03:09 PM

30 bucks to get a PPC Mac back into useful service is a decent price. You can't have too many Macs.

( I can just see my place in 20 years, if I stick to that philosophy )

If no one is going to offer a decent defense of the Mac, it looks like I will have to later on tonight. It's the principle of the thing ... I know Bill is having trouble making his payments on the 3rd yacht, but I just can't see sending money his way. Even indirectly (like a Win license they were forced to pay, even to sell us a linux box).

Shaktai · Apr 4, 2002, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by reader50:
30 bucks to get a PPC Mac back into useful service is a decent price. You can't have too many Macs.

( I can just see my place in 20 years, if I stick to that philosophy )

If no one is going to offer a decent defense of the Mac, it looks like I will have to later on tonight. It's the principle of the thing ... I know Bill is having trouble making his payments on the 3rd yacht, but I just can't see sending money his way. Even indirectly (like a Win license they were forced to pay, even to sell us a linux box).

Hey, I will defend my mac. I use it for photography, writing, web design, e-mail and a whole lot more, and then crunch with it when I am not doing other things. However, I do have to agree with Scott that for just plain crunching, it is a bit pricey. The exception would be RC-5 in my mind and whatever else follows it as well as the other arena's where Altivec shines. Besides, I still think this summer is going to bring some big improvements, and yes, elegance does have its price. My two PC's lie hidden, crunching data and collecting dust. My macs get used on a daily basis for all kinds of stuff and then manage to look good while they crunch too.

ericdelangen · Apr 4, 2002, 03:31 PM

I thought I'd ask since no one else has... since you're pimping linux so hard, what flavor do you recommend? I haven't had a lot of success running linux before and when I did get it to work I found there wasn't a whole lot I could do with it. Just curious...

Scotttheking · Apr 4, 2002, 04:38 PM

Well the linux I use is debian, it's not the easiest to setup, but I like it because it's clean and only installs what I want.
You could use mandrake or red hat.
Remember, these are setup and forget boxes, not something you use, so you want the OS that runs that way

reader50, if you buy parts, there is no M$ tax.

Also, it looks like even with altivec, the mac still isn't worth the money for rc5, sadly enough.

wheeles · Apr 4, 2002, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
You could use mandrake or red hat.

I've tried several different Linux distributions in the past: Red Hat, Slackware, Mandrake and Caldera OpenLinux (or whatever they call it this week). Of these Mandrake was by far the easiest to set up. However, this was about a year or so ago. The others may well have caught up by now.

Microns · Apr 4, 2002, 07:27 PM

While a hardware solution is my first choice as well, there is a MacCentric software solution here.

Apple wrote an Altivec enabled version of the S@H client. One of us must have a friend on the inside at Apple who can liberate the Altivec software!

Later...

Tigerabbit · Apr 4, 2002, 10:12 PM

Good luck to Microns on that, but where would we hide it? MacNN sure wouldn't want to be found hosting it, especially if it is treated like a hacked version.

Gumby, the 6100/66 might be of more use on RC5, though it would probably do only 30-45 blocks per day

My 7100/80 has been running RC5 for 16 straight days without a glitch, using a minimal install of OS 8 and running only RC5 and Finder. Too bad it doesn't do quite enough to be a set-it-and-forget-it box.

Actually, a 7100 or 8100 via eBay or a garage sale would be under $60 (including shipping). G3 upgrade cards (sub-300 MHz) can be had on eBay for under $100. With the base HD and RAM and a minimal install MacOS, you could get 800-900 Kkeys/sec from RC5, about 250 blocks per day. It's not great, but it's a lot easier that building your own system, especially if you don't know what you're doing in the first place.

DO NOT SIT ON G3 UPGRADE CARDS. THEY BREAK.

Building something for SETI or higher with Mac stuff and with economy in mind is difficult. It's easier to buy a clearance iMac/iBook from Circuit City.

As for me, I blew my toy budget until October on my 466 upgrade for Bondi. No new toys for me until then.

Some Wal-Marts sell OS-less boxes for those not into building from the ground up. See http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product_listing. gsp?path=0%3A3944%3A3951%3A41937%3A86796%3A86798&a mp;dept=3944&cat=86798&sb=61&bti=0 . I don't know what Microtel's track record looks like, so ask someone who knows more about that side for info.

[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: Tigerabbit ]

reader50 · Apr 4, 2002, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by Microns:
While a hardware solution is my first choice as well, there is a MacCentric software solution here.

Apple wrote an Altivec enabled version of the S@H client. One of us must have a friend on the inside at Apple who can liberate the Altivec software!

Later...

The altiveced version that Apple demo'd at a MacWorld was a modified v1.x client. It's units would not be accepted today.

slipjack · Apr 6, 2002, 01:23 PM

Too bad part prices are going up.

slipjack · Apr 6, 2002, 05:08 PM

Research:

Ok, not that I'm actually going to buy yet, but I looked into BareBones, and build-it-yourself-bundle systems, and the best I could find for an AMD 1700+ was about $450, which is pretty good considering you get a whole system. Here's the link.

Now, on the super-low budget end, the cheapest I've found so far is getting parts at newegg.com:

Cases PC - ATX - Mini/Med Tower
ENLIGHT MEDIUM ATX TOWER CASE $44.00

CD ROM
AOPEN CD-952E 52x CDROM - RETAIL Internal EIDE $25.00

Fan / Cooling Device - CPU
Thermaltake VOLCANO II. Heatsink + Dual Ball bearing Fan $5.50

Keyboards - English
KBTEK 104 Keys Windows 95/98/me/2000/xp PS2 $8.00

Memory - PC (DDR)
Dane-Elec DDR 128MB 16X64 PC-2100 RAM - OEM $33.00

Motherboards - AMD
FIC AD11 AMD Athlon DDR SDRAM ATX mobo (refurb) $39.00

Mouse
SCANPORT SMU-5 USB Plug & Play MOUSE - $.69 (!)

Network - Interface Cards
ENCORE ENL832-TX-RE 10/100B PCI FAST ETHERNET $3.99

Processors - AMD Athlon Thunderbird, XP, MP
MD 1700+/266 FSB Athlon XP PROCESSOR CPU $105.00

MAXTOR 20GB 5400RPM Model # 2B020H1 - OEM $58.00

Total $322.18

So... you could have your own little crunch farm for only the price of a new G4 DP.

The Placid Casual · Apr 6, 2002, 06:33 PM

For anyone who is interested, I noticed that at frys.com, they are selling an 1800 XP+ with the K7S5A for $158...seems like a pretty good deal (taking into account Scotts first post) although I can't be sure as I'm not expert in 'alien' technology

If only I could get hold of the same gear in the UK for that cheap, and I hadn't taken that vow never to use a PC again ( and further line Bills pockets!) I may just have been tempted to take the dedicated cruncher route....

Marc

Scotttheking · Apr 6, 2002, 06:44 PM

remember, I don't pay money for windows parts.

BTW, if you buy a machine with windows you can request a refund for it if you aren't going to be using it, but I don't remember how.

I found that fry's deal.
It's the deal I get, except is cheaper now.
Damn me for paying $230 for that same thing a while back, and then giving it to my friend cuz I can't use it now.
I'd recommend getting this if people want to get a cruncher, it's a good deal. http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3205151/

[ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: Scotttheking ]

SkiBikeSki · Apr 7, 2002, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by Scotttheking:

I'd recommend getting this if people want to get a cruncher, it's a good deal. http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3205151/

That's is a really good deal. I recently built my PC, and I got a worse deal. The Athlin 1700+ was new then and cost more, and the price on all Athlons has plumited, again. Also for DC'ing you don't need to worry about the qauilty of your motherboard. CPU and to a lesser extent RAM is all that's important. $100+ mobo's might have better PCI, AGP, or ATA capabilites but that's not important for CD'ing. With this deal one could make a cheap computer. 159(CPU-MOBO)+20(RAM)+50(HD)+10(NIC)+20(Case)=$239

Scotttheking · Apr 7, 2002, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by SkiBikeSki:
159(CPU-MOBO)+20(RAM)+50(HD)+10(NIC)+20(Case)=$239

Plus $20 for cooling for CPU, $5 for case cooling, ram isn't that cheap by far, more like $50 for DDR, where do you get a HD that cheap?, don't need Nic, it's onboard. Plus vid card (won't boot without it)
But yeah, it's pretty cheap.
If I hadn't already bought two of those deals I'd get another one.
I'll wait for it to run the next time though, no need to spend money now.
Or I could get it now....
grr.

slipjack · Apr 7, 2002, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Scotttheking:


Plus $20 for cooling for CPU, $5 for case cooling, ram isn't that cheap by far, more like $50 for DDR, where do you get a HD that cheap?, don't need Nic, it's onboard. Plus vid card (won't boot without it)
But yeah, it's pretty cheap.
If I hadn't already bought two of those deals I'd get another one.
I'll wait for it to run the next time though, no need to spend money now.
Or I could get it now....
grr.

Actually 0 for HD if you can scape up some old IDE junk HD lying around. (I've got a 10 around here somewhere... )

The NIC is included? Cool! That is a good deal. Any ideas on cheap vid cards?

SkiBikeSki · Apr 7, 2002, 01:52 PM

I just quickly pulled some prices off of prcewatch.com. Of course you wouldn't actually buy everything from the cheapest vendor. And I did overlook cooling fans, video card, and the included NIC. So here is a revised version.

159(CPU-MOBO)+39(RAM-256MB-DDR266)+46(HD-20GB-5400)+20(Case)+10(Fan)+16(Video Card-TNT2 8MB)=$290

Scotttheking · Apr 7, 2002, 02:56 PM

not bad at all.

I'll be home this summer for about 2 wks.
If some people want, I'll throw some of these together and ship em setup to your door for a few $. I say that because this board is harder to get running in linux because it needs the new kernel for the NIC to work.

There will probably be another deal on these boards before I go home, as they happen about every month.

Apr 7, 2002, 06:11 PM

I'm looking to build a box (by the time summer comes) for under $300. The only expensive part would be the monitor, because I already have 128MB ram (that's probably not sufficient though). Hmm....

cdhostage · Apr 8, 2002, 01:21 AM

So... you'd build a computer just to get WUs done so your name is higher on the lists? Silly.

How much would you spend on electricity in a month with a dozen of these $300 computers working all the time?

Scotttheking · Apr 8, 2002, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by cdhostage:
So... you'd build a computer just to get WUs done so your name is higher on the lists? Silly.

How much would you spend on electricity in a month with a dozen of these $300 computers working all the time?

I have 3 with a fourth on the way

And electricity is even more.

Shaktai · Apr 8, 2002, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by cdhostage:
So... you'd build a computer just to get WUs done so your name is higher on the lists? Silly.

How much would you spend on electricity in a month with a dozen of these $300 computers working all the time?

It isn't all about having your name higher on a list, though that is a fun benefit. Like many things, it is a hobby and has its costs. If you are capable of absorbing those costs, then enjoy the hobby.

More importantly is the project(s), which for my is my real motivation. I am looking to a future where family members and friends may not suffer the same problems we face today. Or may find a better hope for a good life. I know that I chose my project, because its potential benefits hit close to home. The competition is fun, and as the current #1 on the team for dFold, I look forward to the day when I am passed, because it means there is participation and therefore more benefit to the project. In the meantime I intend to push the upper limits as far as I can, so that others have a higher goal to reach. If we can contribute to science and knowledge and have fun at the same time, then why not?

[stepping down off my soap box now]

[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: Shaktai ]

JAmZ SeSSioN · Apr 8, 2002, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by Scotttheking:


Plus vid card (won't boot without it)

Most new MB's have a setting in the BIOS that can disable "HALT ON ERRORS".
So in sense, you can Etherboot and manage it with
VPN

Scotttheking · Apr 8, 2002, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by JAmZ SeSSioN:


Most new MB's have a setting in the BIOS that can disable "HALT ON ERRORS".
So in sense, you can Etherboot and manage it with
VPN

I haven't found it on this mobo, nor has anyone else.

Have you managed to get any form of netboot working, cuz I haven't yet, and am trying.

jbcool · Apr 8, 2002, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Shaktai:


It isn't all about having your name higher on a list, though that is a fun benefit. Like many things, it is a hobby and has its costs. If you are capable of absorbing those costs, then enjoy the hobby.

More importantly is the project(s), which for my is my real motivation. I am looking to a future where family members and friends may not suffer the same problems we face today. Or may find a better hope for a good life. I know that I chose my project, because its potential benefits hit close to home. The competition is fun, and as the current #1 on the team for dFold, I look forward to the day when I am passed, because it means there is participation and therefore more benefit to the project. In the meantime I intend to push the upper limits as far as I can, so that others have a higher goal to reach. If we can contribute to science and knowledge and have fun at the same time, then why not?

[stepping down off my soap box now]

[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: Shaktai ]

[Stepping on the soap box now]

Ditto to Shaktai post.
I have lost too many people close to me to worry about a few dollars that might help someone else in the future. Who knows I or someone else that is helping today may be the person that benifits tomorrow. It is one of the cheapest hobbies I have and each box is used for other purposes besides just crunching. Anyway I enjoy having Shaktai to challenge me and I intend to return the favor with my $300 boxes.

Good day everyone! Keep on cruching!

[Oops fell of the soap box]