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OoklaTheMok · Jan 26, 2001, 03:01 PM

OK now I am ticked.

Read all about it here.

Jan 26, 2001, 05:53 PM

Oh, s**t! This crap means that you really can�t trust anyones stats (personal or group) for a while. I sure hope Berkely will sort it all out soon. It also probably means tha a new client will become availiable and mandatory in the near future.

jeffreyloaf · Jan 26, 2001, 07:38 PM

This is really sad for everybody.

I HEREBY PLEDGE NOT CHEAT

Jeff

keyser_soze · Jan 26, 2001, 08:52 PM

sweet, i mean that 's horrible.

On the upside, i, um, just added some new comps, yeah.
So, uh, expect my stats to jump up and my avg. times to drop a lot and i should be getting back into the top 100 soon.

just kidding, that's pretty pathetic to resort to cheating to get better stats to brag to people that you will never meet in real life.

Danometer · Jan 27, 2001, 01:50 AM

How many other groups have this hack in their stats? Team Lamb Chop and Knight Who Say Ni! are definitely affected, but can this explain Nordlichter and DSL Reports?

Nordlichter falls behind us, then suddenly passes us, then falls behind us again. They have had *FIVE* jumps since Thanksgiving. Very peculiar indeed!

DSL Reports is running up behind us faster than their number of members and choice of platform would indicate. They have two members with averages less than 4 hours. OCN, the group that would genuinely have PCs that could do 4 hr WUs only has one member at 4h07m, one at 4h15m, and a couple more at 4h30m, but no one sub-4hrs. Do those DSL Reports members have the hack?

SETI may post an update to the Club Teams result list this weekend, but I expect the next one after that to be mid-February, after a purging of the tainted stats.

For the part that actually worries me, was the signal we've been looking for lost in the workunits that were loaded but never crunched by these hackers? I know there is some duplicate distribution of workunits, but is there enough duplication? Will those workunits have to be hunted down by SETI and redistributed? How bad has SETI's reputation been tainted by these hacks?

[This message has been edited by Danometer (edited 01-27-2001).]

OoklaTheMok · Jan 27, 2001, 08:45 PM

A lot of good questions there. I'm sure things will get sorted out eventually. If you'll notice on the top 1000 users page, several of the top names have been blanked out or changed to "waiting...." Whether this is because the seti people changed them or the hackers changed them themselves as a prelude to expected account deletion who knows?

In any case this will most likely cause another mandatory upgrade as soon as the seti people figure out a way to stop the cheating.

Another way of cheating that should be addressed but might be more difficult is uploading valid results under several different account names. For example, I heard of a team (don't remember which one) where all the team members send in their units through their team leader's SetiQ server, and that he uploads them twice: once for the user who actually crunched the unit, and once for himself. To stop this way of cheating, berkeley would have to keep track of every unit that their servers give a user, and only accept results from units that they officially gave that user.

The sub-4 hour times could be explained in that they are machines that your normal overclockers just don't use, namely, compaq alphas. You can check on the Ars benchmark page for 3.03 times; there is a Compaq Alpha there that did it in 4:30, which ran under 3 hours with 3.0. (numbers approximate; I don't quite remember the exacts.)

Also big team jumps are most often due to members joining and leaving

Todd Madson · Jan 30, 2001, 02:00 PM

Okay kids, the link above won't work "temporarily unavailable". What's the news and what are they doing?

Todd Madson · Jan 30, 2001, 02:06 PM

I see what happened now. The big question: was the reduction of processing times allowing real work to be done or was it just incrementing false work unit submissions? I suspect real work wasn't occurring.

OoklaTheMok · Jan 31, 2001, 03:34 PM

No work was occurring at all. A WU would finish in seconds and report a bogus time somewhere between 4-6 hours. It would report no results found, i.e. no gaussians, no spikes, no triplets, no pulses, no nada. Thankfully it's easy for the seti people to see these bogus wus. They will implement a fix either server-side or with a new 3.04 win CLI client.}

EqualTime · Feb 3, 2001, 02:21 AM

It is possible to overclock a xeon processor to around 1000MHz and do a work unit in about 2 hours using the 2.4 SETI client (winNT commandline). This is within reason because a 400MHz xeon will complete a work unit in about 5 hrs using the 2.4 client. currently the 400MHz xeon will do about 10hours per WU under the new 3.03 client. I have no data on the avg time for the 1000MHz(700@1000) xeon using the 3.03 client.

Just so you know the 2:10 times you see at OCN are real. Well, they aren't possible anymore since the 2.4 client stopped uploading yesterday (thanks Berkeley, ya morons).

The random single WUs that appear beside several OCN SETI members names with a 2 hour time are all from a single OC'd dual xeon machine. In an effort to see that no members had zero work units beside their name(abandoned accounts) a single work unit was uploaded on their behalf (when an email address was available to identify the abandoned account that is).

The members at OCN would be the first to beat-down one of their own if they suspected a hacked client was being used by someone. We heard about the 'hack' the same way you did - after team lambchop was caught.

[This message has been edited by EqualTime (edited 02-03-2001).]

Richard Pinneau · Feb 11, 2001, 01:50 PM

Any news on SETI's response to the hacked clients? Have they caught/eliminated all the suspects? Have they put something in place on the server side to detect such?

MindYerBeak · Feb 14, 2001, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Danometer:
[b]How many other groups have this hack in their stats? Team Lamb Chop and Knight Who Say Ni! are definitely affected, but can this explain Nordlichter and DSL Reports?

Nordlichter falls behind us, then suddenly passes us, then falls behind us again. They have had *FIVE* jumps since Thanksgiving. Very peculiar indeed!

DSL Reports is running up behind us faster than their number of members and choice of platform would indicate. They have two members with averages less than 4 hours. OCN, the group that would genuinely have PCs that could do 4 hr WUs only has one member at 4h07m, one at 4h15m, and a couple more at 4h30m, but no one sub-4hrs. Do those DSL Reports members have the hack?

]

The reason DSLR spurted ahead was because we at Team OcUK were engaged in a "Dragrace" with DSLR to see who would be the first to produce 200,000 WUs. Their members who used to crunch for F@H/B@H rose to the challenge and crunched for SETI during the course of the race. You will now find that they have slowed down.

Team DSL Reports is a honourable team worthy of our respect and in no way would they condone cheating. Due to the fact that the hacked client was distributed over the web, a statistical analysis was done by both our teams in order to ascertain that any possibility of cheating could not and would not occur.

------------------
Mr. MindYerBeak of Team OcUK, at your service.
The only way forward is hup!

ETHunter · Feb 14, 2001, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Danometer:
How many other groups have this hack in their stats? Team Lamb Chop and Knight Who Say Ni! are definitely affected, but can this explain Nordlichter and DSL Reports?

Nordlichter falls behind us, then suddenly passes us, then falls behind us again. They have had *FIVE* jumps since Thanksgiving. Very peculiar indeed!

DSL Reports is running up behind us faster than their number of members and choice of platform would indicate. They have two members with averages less than 4 hours. OCN, the group that would genuinely have PCs that could do 4 hr WUs only has one member at 4h07m, one at 4h15m, and a couple more at 4h30m, but no one sub-4hrs. Do those DSL Reports members have the hack?

SETI may post an update to the Club Teams result list this weekend, but I expect the next one after that to be mid-February, after a purging of the tainted stats.

For the part that actually worries me, was the signal we've been looking for lost in the workunits that were loaded but never crunched by these hackers? I know there is some duplicate distribution of workunits, but is there enough duplication? Will those workunits have to be hunted down by SETI and redistributed? How bad has SETI's reputation been tainted by these hacks?

[This message has been edited by Danometer (edited 01-27-2001).]

As a member of DSL Reports I take exception to the statement which questions whether members there have the hack and are using it...visit the board and look at the team stats before you make such a statement as you will only succeed in offfending people. This will not help the situation.

As Beaky has said above, OcUK..my former team...and DSLR have been in a "dragrace" to achieve 200000units first..this race I started when at OcUK.

One reason why DSLR have jumped suddenly is an influx of new members..I joined with over 6000 units and I hope there is no suggestion I have cheated.

As MaccNN are ahead of DSLR and OcUK it would be equally valid for someone to question your team stats..but I hope that doesn't happen..get the point...

Bockie · Feb 14, 2001, 12:56 PM

We fully understand...little or no information is often more detrimental than misinformation.

------------------
"Life cannot be contained...Life finds a way."
-Ian Malcom, Jurassic Park (movie version)

druber · Feb 14, 2001, 02:57 PM

dood, i don't care if people question our team stats. most of the fire went out after a big bout of nastiness with another team. while idle speculation is definitely capable of doing harm, these forums are our spot to hoot and holler when we pass someone and lick our wounds when teams pass us. opinions here are ostensibly made in private, not submitted for all the world. if you're offended, and you've said nyah nyah enough, go shoot at the next team in line.

sorry if i take exception to your exception. tired of all self-righteous indignation that's swooping around the forums in general.

MindYerBeak · Feb 14, 2001, 03:22 PM

No offence, Mr. Druber, sir, and we at Team OcUK mean no offence, for I, too, was guilty once of believing your very own team, being at such a lofty position, of being "cheats", when the bubble burst. I now know this is not the case. I hope, sir, that you will remain a worthy opponent and no hard feelings are held between us. We at Team OcUK look towards MacNN as being worthy opponents and would wish that our relationship would continue on a friendly basis, as does DSLR. Why not put this difference between us and look upon each other as friendly rivals in the Great Stomp ahead? Much fun is to be gained and may help us all in our quest to reach the top position. Rest assured, hwever, that Team OcUK will stomp both DSLR and MacNN in the process. Oooops, I've opened a bag of worms, wethinks.

------------------
Mr. MindYerBeak of Team OcUK, at your service.
The only way forward is hup!

Feb 14, 2001, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by ETHunter:
One reason why DSLR have jumped suddenly is an influx of new members..I joined with over 6000 units and I hope there is no suggestion I have cheated.

You are correct. I joined DSLR around the beginning of February, and brought with me 2250 WU's.

- FutureMan

Feb 14, 2001, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by FutureMan:
You are correct. I joined DSLR around the beginning of February, and brought with me 2250 WU's.

- FutureMan

You go FutureMan, while the competition was on we must have recruited 20,000 wu's in about 3 weeks.
Visit dslreports.com and see for yourselves why the SETI team is so great.
That's all for now, see you again as we go by!!!

Feb 15, 2001, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by druber:
dood, i don't care if people question our team stats. most of the fire went out after a big bout of nastiness with another team. while idle speculation is definitely capable of doing harm, these forums are our spot to hoot and holler when we pass someone and lick our wounds when teams pass us. opinions here are ostensibly made in private, not submitted for all the world. if you're offended, and you've said nyah nyah enough, go shoot at the next team in line.

sorry if i take exception to your exception. tired of all self-righteous indignation that's swooping around the forums in general.

Oh Dear, you have definatly got the wrong message from our posts.
Not once have I said Nyah Nyah nor do I intend to shoot anyone

But if you are getting upset already and throwing in the towel before things get started I see little point in continuing to post on your forum.

The prime intention was to get you to muster your team and become the target to pursue. This in turn would hopefully spur on our team to give chase.

Net result, both teams benefit.

Seems everyone in here is more concerned with grumbling about historical events rather than looking forward.

This will be my last post here unless invited back, if any of you feel up to the challenge of a Seti Drag-Race over say 20,000 units drop into our forum and throw down that gauntlet.

OcUK Seti@Home

druber · Feb 15, 2001, 05:57 PM

now we're talkin.
i have no problem with looking for a drag race. if we don't rise to the challenge, though, it's not that big a deal. "...everyone in here is more concerned with grumbling about historical events rather than looking forward." um, we're talking about leaving your computer on 24/7, not getting over an old girlfriend. it's a funny line, tho.

ETHunter · Feb 19, 2001, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by druber:
dood, i don't care if people question our team stats. most of the fire went out after a big bout of nastiness with another team. while idle speculation is definitely capable of doing harm, these forums are our spot to hoot and holler when we pass someone and lick our wounds when teams pass us. opinions here are ostensibly made in private, not submitted for all the world. if you're offended, and you've said nyah nyah enough, go shoot at the next team in line.

sorry if i take exception to your exception. tired of all self-righteous indignation that's swooping around the forums in general.

Unfortunately as this is a PUBLIC forum any comments made here are NOT private..it is a fact of the web..very little is actually private here..and as for self-righteous..I don't think anything said in this thread has fitted that description..except that comment itself..

If you view this board as a place to grumble, whinge, bitch and moan then you have lost the plot for what a BB can be..Have you considered getting out more

Seriously..your BB can be so much more than the way you are viewing it..the way you chosse to use it could be why there is little traffic on it compared to other BB's on the web..

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[a href="http://www.setistats.de"][img src="http://www.setistats.de/wucount.php4?mail=setiathome%40dataquest.org.uk&am p;font=arial&size=30&col1=0,0,255&col2 =255,0,0"][/a]

[a href="http://www.setistats.de"][img src="http://www.setistats.de/wucount2.php4?id=78617&font=arial&size=30& amp;col1=255,0,0&col2=0,0,255"][/a]

keyser_soze · Feb 20, 2001, 01:46 PM

actually it is a private forum with public access to a point. During the little bout with Overclockers Network, it got pretty interesting in here. The rest of the MacNN forums have very high traffic levels compared to lots of other BB's.

I would bet the reason no one posts here very often is to either let more seti units get crunched(doubtful) or because seti is dying. Within a year seti will be a has been of the distributed processing apps. It was great while it lasted and proved distributed processing works, but lots of people would rather do something more useful now that there are other choices out there.

Richard Pinneau · Feb 20, 2001, 07:14 PM

?more useful?

...than ferreting out illegal aliens?

...than listening to some intelligence transcending our humble beginnings?

ETHunter · Feb 22, 2001, 12:55 PM

What could be more useful to our species than finding evidence of an intelligent species on another world that has also attained a technological civilisation?? This would go a long way to helping our species define ourselves in the scheme of things. It would be a turning point to be remembered even more so than the Moon landing..it would be a defining moment of which NOTHING else even can compare.

Yes many may be disillusioned cos nothing has been found yet..give it time, there are 100's of millions of potential targets in our galaxy alone..it'll take more than a 5 minute wonder to solve this mystery..God humans are so stupid at times!!!

keyser_soze · Feb 22, 2001, 04:27 PM

yes, that's all true, but like you said, it's going to take a while. It probably won't be in our lifetime, but if projects like genome can help find a cure for cancer and disease, then you'll have a better chance of living long enough to maybe see it.

I think you're misunderstanding what i said. I'm not saying seti is worthless, just that there are other projects for people to choose that can be beneficial in the short term. You know your processing time is going to good use. With seti, well, you never know. It's more of a way to get the SETI Institute some name recognition and hopefully more funding than a means of really finding anything.

monte · Feb 22, 2001, 09:09 PM

While searching for ET is cool, Seti has TOO MANY people searching for it which is why there is no Alti-Vec client available for the G4... Not enough Units left for duration of life expectancy...

But I thought this thread was dead concerning hacked clients....

Scotttheking · Feb 23, 2001, 12:40 AM

What makes SETI so cool is that it is the only distributed computing project that has real stats, teams, and all that.
The pay ones are nice, but they don't have the structure down yet.
I run SETI on all my comps, and popular power on my linux machine (along with SETI).
Reason for using SETI:
1. No intelligent life on earth.
2. Jirk@, you are going down.

As soon as pay to process places start paying on something like x amount of cash per work unit, I'm switching most of my machines over, but I'm still gonna run SETI.