I (also) have a G3 400 with scsi controller (Adaptec 2940U2B), 256 MB RAM and 6+4+4 GB HD ... and I wouldn't mind a li'l extra speed.

On the other hand ... I don't know if it is a Sawtooth, a Yosemite or a Niagara or Masai ... how can I tell? It's blue and white ... perhaps it's a Fish?

Where does it say what it is ... and where can I read how to speed it up a bit?

Now boys ... this is your big chance to hep a lady in distress ...

)

[giantmike]

It's a fish, lol

Actually, all B&W G3's are code named Yosemite. Beige G3's are code named Gossamer. G4's are code name Sawtooth and Yikes (for PCI and AGP graphics)

Hope this helps.

------------------
The Mac Information Depot. Why go anywhere else?

[muttfree]

Well, what EXACTLY do you want to speed up? If you are talking about the hardware, there are options, it just depends on what you want to do. OTOH, if you are talking about the operating system and applications, there are options there also. We gonna need some more info to be able to help you effectively.

Hows about your OS version, extensions/control panels currently in use, applications installed, internet connection type & browser/email app you use, hardware configurations...ie HD - rpm, peripherals used, VM on or off .....ect ect ect....the more details the better

You said you have scsi already....what are you using it for? the HD or externals......

We'd be glad to help, just give us some info to work with

[This message has been edited by muttfree (edited 01-04-2001).]

GiantMike:

Thanks. It did help. Now I know I have a Yosemite ... even if it's a bit fishy.


MuttFree

Basically I like this computer. It is ok. But on the other hand, it would be cool to have it running even faster. As I understand it, I should be able to boost the speed simply by moving some jumpers around ... as if I knew what I'm talking about ... I don't.

As for your questions: I run Mac OS 9.04, Eudorta 5 (paid mode), Netscape 4.08 (standalone browser) (but i have IE 5 as well). I run Photoshop 5.5 (haven't installed 6.0 yet), Illustrator 9, Quark 4.04, SoundJam, MS Office 98, Adaptec Toast 4.2 and ....

As for extension stuff and utilities ... Actionfiles 1.2, StuffIt Deluxe 5.5, ATM 4.6 and Type Reunion 2.5.2, speed startup 1.0.2, speed doubler 8.0.1, Virex 5.9.1 ...

You must tell me what to tell you ... ask specific questions please ... I'm no expert in this

SCSI: The machine came with the SCSI card installed. It is a Adaptec card, but they don't support it. Apple does. I recently found a firmware upgrade from 1.0 to 1.2 on apple.com, and that may have helped me a bit, since before the uprade, I couldn't use my peripherals. I could burn half a CD and then the machine would freeze. I could mount a hard drive (if SCSI probe 5.2 could find it) but then the machine would freeze, if I tried to open a mounted volume, the scanner couldn't be found on the chain etc. So I have so far used the Yosemite (I so like the sound of this) as a stand alone machine and have cared for all the other stuff on my loyal Quadra 950/Daystar 80MHz PPC card. The machines are connected with a 10 megasomething ethernet.

Peripherals : I have a scanner (an old heap of junk, for layout scans only), a CD-writer, some hard disks, a DAT, a JAZ drive. One hard disk is an 18 GB thing with new scsi connectors, the rest have old scsi connectors.

Net: I have a 512/128 ADSL connection.

Hard drives: The machine came with a 6 GB SCSI drive and I have added two 4 GB SCSI drives. They are both (all actually) IBM drives and only about 2 years old. I have no idea how many rpm's they run ... does it say so anywhere? Where should i look?
I would like to be able to take out the two 4 GB drives in exchange for a 45 or 60 GB IBM IDE/ATA drive. They are awesomely cheap these days. Is this possible?

As you an see, I use the SCSI for the internal hard drives, and only have had succes using them for the external chain for a week, I have no idea yet if the scanner and the CD-writer will work.

Tell me what to check for and I'll get back to you ASAP

Thanks in advance

Mike and Muff :

btw ... how can I tell if I have a rev 1 or 2 or whatever it is people constantly refer to?

Whooops ...


and ... last but not least ... Conflict Catcher 8.0.6

[rambo47]

For the definitive source on the B&W G3's go to http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/ . Specs like telling rev.1 from rev.2, upgrade and overclocking info, compatability reports and personal experiences with equipment.

------------------
"There is no spoon."
iDisk: rseijas
Homepage: homepage.mac.com/rseijas

[zoopsia215]

I thought Virex 5.9.1 was not compatable with OS 9.0.4. I can recall many system errors I had before upgrading to 6.0 and now I have updated to 6.1 since then.

Well, there is one thing I noticed Lotte and that is you have 3 HD's connected to one SCSI card as well as some peripherals. You have all these devices accessing tinformation and sending it through the card and it can cause I/O bottle necks. One of the best things to do to speed up your SCSI access is to get the new Adaptec 39160 with dual channel SCSI and you can split up the devices to the channels. Of coarse there are other issues with speed and compatability, but we all cannot have enough speed, it is like a drug and you want more, lol

zoopsia

I upgraded to Virex 6.0 and that only caused trouble .. so I'm back at 5.9.1 with monthly updates and it works fine.

I have three internal drive, but I don't have a ton of wxternal devices connected. I have the 18 GB external harddrive on, and I plan on having the CD-burner on as well.

I did buy a Powerdomain 2940U2W on a sale. I godt it fairly cheap cause the shop was closing. Too late I found out it was a card for a PC, SIGH.

I have a 46.1 GB IBM ATA disk (7200 rpm it says on it) but I don't know if I can use it.

SIGN again

[zac4mac]

Everything I can find suggests your Yosemite MoBo has at least one, possibly two IDE/ATA(probably 33, not 66) connectors on it that you could plug that big 46 gigger into. That would give you volume but not a lot of speed. Keep your fast SCSI drives also for scratch disks and such.

It appears that if you have a rev1, you can run a single ATA drive from the onboard controller and two devices for a rev2.
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/IDE/add_2nd_drive/

While you're at Mike's site, read up on SCSI. It can be confusing, even to veterans. Basically make sure you address each device uniquely , use 0-6 for address and each chain has to have a "terminator" at each Physical end(position, not address). He also has info for setting the jumpers for different bus ratios. You can usually count on a half step bump up on the multiplier. That would take you up to 450.

There are a couple of utilities by PowerLogix and Newer Tech(bowing my head) that allow overriding the L2 cache speed setting via a control panel.

Get Norton or Tech Tool Pro to defrag/optimize your hard drives and Disk Warrior to optimize your directories. The Mac runs faster if it doesn't have to hunt down a bunch of file fragments.

zac4mac:

Thank you for the info. I thought that the big IBM disk with it's 7200 rpm would be almost as fast as an older SCSI-disk. Hmm .. apparently not.

Where can I see if it is a rev1 or 2 I have?

What is Mike's site? Is it the one you mention? www.xlr8yourmac.com?

I have the chains terminated and I have 3 units on the internal chain and 2 on the external.

When you mention "setting jumpers for different bus ratios" and "half step bump on the multiplier" I'm lost. Totally!

I have Norton and I use it regularly to Speed Disk my hard drives. Are you telling me that Norton Speed Disk doesn't optimize folders but only files?

I had a vision of me moving a jumper and getting 500 MHz instead of 400. That would be so cool. Not possible?

I am also looking for a step-by-step guide to speed boosting ... do you know a good website?

Thanks in advance

The big IBM ATA disc might be faster than the older SCSI stuff. *might* is the key word. If: 1. you have an ATA66 connector on your motherboard. 2. those SCSI drives with the "older" connections (25 pin apple, 50 pin Centronics) may be SCSI-2 they can keep up if they are also 7200rpm drives. There's a million possible bottlenecks, and most of them are unavoidable without spending lots more money. I'd say put the ATA drive in, and Maybe look at another SCSI card. Scanners are notorious for causing problems on long SCSI chains.....

The nice thing about the Yosemite G3 is that you can overclock by changing the bus multiplier setting. This entails moving around a few jumpers...very easy compared to overclocking a Sawtooth, which requires soldering. I tried OCing my Sawtooth and it froze, so I had to solder back on a tiny resistor afterwards. Those resistors are small enough so that it isn't fun to solder them

Check out xlr8yourmac for info on the jumper settings. Many people with 400MHz B&W G3s have successfuly OCd to 450MHz, 500 is pushing it, but I've heard of people doing it with active cooling systems. Apple switched to hard wired jumpers with the sawtooth because Jobs didn't want mac users upgrading their macs for free! Its that easy.

[muttfree]

Lotte; sorry I didnt get back to you sooner..............kind long.......

First thing, If you can, go get some more RAM now, while its CHEAP!!!!! You can never have too much. Adding another 256MB or more will DRAMATICALLY speed up your system right from the start

To clarify if you have a rev 1 or rev 2, go to this page:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G3-ZONE/y...wfeatures.html

and check out items #2,3,&4 to identify the rev #. Note the pictures...very nice......the real key here is the CMD controller chip... as follows........"B&W G3) Rev. 1 and Rev. 2 logic boards are similar. To differentiate, check the number printed on the CMD chip at location U1. The CMD chip on Rev. 1 logic boards is PCI646U2 and on Rev. 2 logic boards is 646U2-402.

The thing is that if you have a rev 1, then the motherboard will only support 1 ATA/EIDE drive being connected to the onboard connector. However you could still get a PCI card and connect additional drives to it. BUT, if you have a rev 2, then the onboard connectors (2) will
each support 2 drives, so you can have a total of 4 drives connected.....that includes the CD Rom/Zip ect ect...

Now for the overclocking..it really is VERY simple, but must be done exactly correct or your machine will not start up. See here for the photo illustrated guide:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G3-ZONE/yosemite/OC.html

You will need 5 or 6 of the jumpers first though, check RadioShack...
Depending on the actual stepping revision of the CPU itself, you may be able overclock to either 450 or 500mhz. My CPU is a 2.1 IBM Copper@350mhz, and I have been running it overclocked to 450mhz for 2 months now. Your mileage will vary, some of the CPU's have a larger tolerance for o/cing than others. Go to www.versiontracker.com and down load the utility called "Gauge Pro" by NewerTeachnology.
it will tell you exactly which CPU you have....


As for the applications...nothing odd there, except maybe MS Office...have heard lotsa problems there.....

but you can safely trash the speed start-up and speed doubler..they are crap apps and dont actually give you much in the way of REAL speed increases. For faster start-ups, do this......Hold down the Command & Option keys, and open the Memory Control panel...at the bottom you will see the option to turn off the start-up memory tests....turn them off...dont worry, you can always turn them back on, but the only time you really need this on is PRIOR to installing new RAM, leave it on for a few days until your satisfied that the machine is stable and then turn it back off.


One of the biggest things alot of people miss is that the more extensions, control panels and control strip modules you have loaded at start-up, the slower the machine will run and the more RAM it will require.......plain & simple.....

so go through your system folder and either disable or trash anything you dont need or use......if you dont know, then start with the extensions manager control panel....... open it and clik on the little trinagle to dispay the info box......highlight each item and the box will give you a brief description of it, and decide from there...or buy : Mac OS 9 for Dummies......it has a complete list of all OS-related items...alot of them need to be active only if you use the specific features that they enable.

Prime expamle..MULTIPLE USERS.......big waste of system resources...especialy if you load it but dont use it.....

As for the Hard drives, you could keep the scsi ones (and the card) and add at least one big fast EIDE unit, or sell them all and change over to EIDE completely......except keep the card for the scanner & CD burne,r unless they wont work with it, in that case, sell all of them too and buy either USB or Firewire replacements.....much better and no connection, temination or ID number issues....

Since the scsi ones are a few years old, it's a good bet that they are 4200rpm or 5400 at best.........way slow by todays standards......New ones are way faster (7200, 10,000 & 15,000rpm)..but are EXPENSIVE, and most likely would require a different card to connect them to (more $$$) and your scanner & CD burner may not work with them either...

And you already have the 46GB, so use it.....As I said earlier, even if you have the rev 1, you can still use 1 EIDE unit for sure.......

Well, that probably enoough for now, so post back if you still have additional issues you would like to discuss....

Good luck



[This message has been edited by muttfree (edited 01-13-2001).]

[zac4mac]

Lotte,
There are 5 main ways to OC or overclock a processor.
1) Change your L2 cache speed setting with software.(XLR8, PowerLogix, Newer Tech, etc)
2) Change the FSB or "bus" speed - 68oxo processors and early PPC commonly use this.
3) Change the "bus multiplier" - the processor runs at a multiple of the FSB. e.g. For a 100MHz bus and a 5x multiplier, you have a processor speed of 500 MHz. On my G4, I changed the multiplier from 5x to 5.5x and now I have a 550 MHz G4 Dual. This is what you change with "jumpers" on your Blue&White
4)Increase the processor core voltage. Very Dangerous, used to really squeeze the most out of a processor. If taken too far, the processor literally Burns Up.
5)Increase L2 Cache Signal level. Much the same as #4

[bojangles]

You're running Mac OS 9.0.4 and SpeedDoubler 8.0.1? Without problems? I'm truly impressed. I haven't been able to get the two to work together.

btw- my experience has been that Mac OS 9.1 is much more stable than 9.0.4, but as I understand, individual results may vary.

"Aunque el mono se viste de seda, mono se queda."

[Scotttheking]

Rev a?
Rev b?
Did apple revise the B&W G3 when they bumped speeds up 50MHz?
I've got a B&W-400, bought it the day it came out. It has two ATA-33 buses, and an ATA bus can hold 2 drives.
I'm guessing that since I was one of the first to own one, it is a rev a, if there is such a thing.

It has 5 internal drive bays, 3 3.5inch, 2 5.25 inch. the 3.5s are internal, the 5.25s are external access.

If anyone knows how to bump up the processor 50MHz, I'd love to know how.
Hope that info helps you guys.

[muttfree]

Scott,
about the overclocking......see my post above with the xlr8 site url..best o/c guide around

As for the revision issue, if you look at the other article I referenced, also at xlr8, it will show you EXACTLY how to determine which rev machine you have, but generally the B&W's sold from Jan-June of 99 are the rev 1 models, and everything after that are rev 2's.

My friend across town ordered his on June 2nd, rec'd it on June 14th and it is a rev 1, but I ordered mine on July 1st, and got it on the 10th, and it is a rev 2...go figure...

[Scotttheking]

Does that mean that I can't put another hard drive in my comp unless I get a SCSI or IDE PCI card?

[muttfree]

yep.......if it's a rev 1, you will need a IDE or SCSI card. I suppose you COULD remove either the Zip drive or CD-Rom and connect a HD to that connector, which is on the other IDE channel, but what fun would that be

[Scotttheking]

Damn, that means no OSX for me.
I was gonna get a temporary IDE drive for OSX until i can get a good firewire one, guess not anymore.

[muttfree]

Scott, what exactly do you mean ?? I'm not sure that X will support SCSI cards, since it wasnt supposed to support real old machines, at least in the beta, but I doubt that Apple would be stupid enough NOT to include support for IDE cards.

Besides that you could always REPLACE your original drive with a new, faster & bigger unit and partition it for 9.1 & X, if the PCI card doesnt work out

[Scotttheking]

Money issues.

[TimmyDee51]

I know this is kind of late in the game, but I would think that the B&W G3s would have an ATA/66 controller. The rev. A iMacs had an ATA/66 controller and HD and the B&W came out after them. Also, if you don't have true two drive support, you could always slave one to the first. Many iMac owners have done this.

[Scotttheking]

Everything I have heard says ATA-33.
The tech guy at work says that the controller can make it so that only 1 drive per bus.
I don't want to risk wasing money on a drive if it might not work.
And I don't really have much, although I did get a paycheck

[COmie JOe]

all B&W have ata/33 the rev. 1 only support 1 device (master)
the Rev 2 are ata/33 but support 2 devices (Master/Slave)

[Scotttheking]

Then why could you buy a zip drive for the rev a machines from apple?
Wouldn't that be 3 devices?

[dviant]

Muttfree (and others),

I wouldn't give up on putting an extra drive in Rev 1 quite yet. My friend put an extra Western Digital caviar drive in his Rev 1 BW and it worked fine. We did a whole bunch of corruption tests via diskcopy checksums and didn't see any issues. He used it trouble free (afaik) for about six months before he sold it. It's possible that there were corruption issues and we just didn't run into them, but it seemed like it was ok.

[muttfree]

Scott.....it was only 2 HARD DRIVES that were not supported by the old controller chip. There never was any mention of problems with having CD & Zip drives together on the 2nd IDE channel. I would have to conclude that it has something to do with the difference between FIXED drives and REMOVABLE drives, and the manner in which they read & transfer data..........

If you have data on your current drive that you CAN NOT afford to lose, then I would NOT recommend trying to install a 2nd HD without a PCI card. OTOH, if all your data is safely backed-up ( you DO have back-ups..right ?) and/or can be easily re-installed, then all that will happen is that any data you write/copy TO the 2nd drive will most likely get corrupted. Just dont copy anything FROM that HD to your current one, nor try to boot from that drive. If you find corrupted files, then just re-format the drive and do a "write all zeros" option in Drive set-up to wipe the disk clean.

The easiest way to check for corruption is to use the Disk Copy application to copy a large (100MB +) file, and it will verify the "checksum values " once the copying is complete and will tell you if there were any errors.

HTH

[muttfree]

DVIANT....... Data corruption has a very sneeky way of biting you in the butt when you least expect it. Like maybe when you have a deadline for a client, you are near the end of a huge multi-layer 500MB Photoshop file, and you have already spent 2 months of your time on this project, and it is due tommorrow at 8AM, and GEE......my system crashes........hard.....well, I'm sure my PAYING client will understand and wait ANOTHER 2 months for their materials yea right !

NO THANKS, I dont need that kind of headaches, and I doubt anyone else does either.

Of course if you only use your machine for casual use and not to earn a living, then by all means go for it......have fun, be my guest.....

[fritzair]

Lotte,
I have almost the same setup as you only I use an external HD and scanner. The bus was never available outside of SCSI probe until I downloaded Power Domain 5.0.1 from Adaptec. (Control Panel) Now it works.
On another point there are some pretty cheap and fast HD available out there either ATA66 or ATA100, but they transfer at the same rate(ask Mike under ATA cards). These cards are available at COMPUSA with a HD for little to nothing and you could run two and in the striped mode with some raid software, it would really fly.
I have added more memory but I never use all of it and I ,IMHO, think the memory management in 9.1 still is full of bugs and freezes.
I also suggest you dump Speed Doubler. I experienced lots of strange behavior when I moved my jumper and the speed increase was lost on me. BTW I use the same apps. Spend the money on the card and get a drive with 7200rpm and you will be pleased.
Mike