[Guy Incognito]

You know what I really like about the Omni Group? They really understand what OS X is about. I just recently purchased Fallout 2 and happilly inserted the CD into my computer and (no suprise here) up popped window with instructions on how to install Fallout 2 all in a cute little 'window background'. The instructions were simple...drag and drop Fallout 2 anywhere you want.

The game is a bundle. No littering of data files. The data files are in the bundle. I love you Omni! I really do!

Now if Westlake could take Omni's example making bundles out of their games and Heir Jobs' advice that OS 9 is dead the world would be a much better place.

I know the Westlake appologists are going to barge in here and tell me I'm wrong bundles suck.

[Adam Betts]

I agree 100% with you. OmniGroup know OSX by heart. I hate those dirty and disgusting carbon installers.

BTW, how is the game? Is it pretty fast on old computer too?

[fulmer]

bundles are cool. I also hate files littering my directories. I just wish apple would follow the same example for their apps--itunes et al...they all use pkg installers.

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Now if Westlake could take Omni's example making bundles out of their games and Heir Jobs' advice that OS 9 is dead the world would be a much better place.

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (ported by Westlake) has a "cute little window" and a drag-n-drop install.

Furthermore, Soldier of Fortune II (ported by Omni) has an installer, and the game is not "one big bundle", it is two apps and a game data folder. Giants (ported by Omni) also had an installer, and it is also not a bundle.

I guess it's true that love is blind.

Of course, the main reason why most games do not ship as a single bundle is for support of 3rd-party add-ons. It's much easier to see the required folder and put the newly-downloaded add-on into it than to figure out how to maneuver into the bundle or manually create the properly-named folder yourself.

Brad

[Judge_Fire]

Bundles are folders, and now that the folder actions are back, it'd be cool if the app icons could be programmed to redirect any files dropped on them into the correct subfolders, automagically.

Or maybe not - just a thought...

J

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:


Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (ported by Westlake) has a "cute little window" and a drag-n-drop install.

Furthermore, Soldier of Fortune II (ported by Omni) has an installer, and the game is not "one big bundle", it is two apps and a game data folder. Giants (ported by Omni) also had an installer, and it is also not a bundle.

Hmmm...my appologies then. Every app from Omni that I've used so far has been a bundle (Outliner, OmniWeb, OmniGraph, OmniDict, Fallout 2) and automatically assumed Omni were the Bundle Gods!

I'm curious though...why are there two apps for Soldier of Fortune II? If both apps make use of the game data folder, then having the data folder outside the bundle is the only sane and non-diskspace-wasting solution.

I'll let Giants slide because it was Omni's first port (that included that data files)...maybe I'm expecting too much but I think Omni's gonna make bundles for their game ports from now on.

Installing add-ons is easily done through the inspector panel via the Finder...there's no excuse. And if the user has enough knowledge about dragging and dropping into the correct folders in the first place, how much more knowledge do you need than control/right-clicking the app, choosing Open Bundle (or whatever it's called to navigate the bundle...sorry I'm not in front of OS X right now ) and dropping the add-on/plugins there.

Was Galactic Battlegrounds a bundle? Somehow I doubt it. While I appreciate the thought that you guys made it a drag and drop install, it would be even more appreciated if it were simply a drag and drop install of a bundle and not a folder full of files.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
I agree 100% with you. OmniGroup know OSX by heart. I hate those dirty and disgusting carbon installers.

BTW, how is the game? Is it pretty fast on old computer too?

So far I've only tested it on my Dual-800. It should run fine on a 266 G3 though...I'll try it out on the ol' Beige when I get a chance.

So far I've played it for about 40 hours without a crash (actually that'd be a lie...I can make the game crash by trying to 'hide' the app right at startup during the very first splash screen.) If we're talking in-game crashes though...it hasn't happened yet.

Fallout 2 is probably one of the best RPGs ever. I remember playing it a few years ago on my friend's PC and I remember being quite jealous that I couldn't play it on my Mac.

[poocat]

i'm so excited about fallout 2!

it's one of my favorite games of all time, and i've been waiting for years to see it ported to the mac. thank god for omnigroup. i do love them so. seriously though, i'm MAD pumped about this game. i almost died when macplay closed just as it was announced...

now i've just got to get my hands on a copy somehow...

poocat.

[MacGorilla]

I really don't care what the install routine is, as long as it doesn't require booting up 9 or a restart.

Both Omni and Westlake do a fine job. I support them both.

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Installing add-ons is easily done through the inspector panel via the Finder...there's no excuse.

OK, I'll bite - how do you do this? If by inspector panel, you mean the "Get Info" window, I see no way to access the bundle contents from there, at least in 10.2.

In fact, the only way to get to the bundle contents from the OSX Finder - that I'm aware of - involves right-clicking on the item and choosing "Show package contents." Are there other ways?

Brad

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (ported by Westlake) has a "cute little window" and a drag-n-drop install.

Yeah but what Guy is trying to say is that it took other porthouse a long time to catch up with OS X technology. Westlake should have been doing this from the beginning.

By the way, tell Glenda to work on UT OSX! If she didn't finish it by Dec, it'd be pretty worthless

[jfinete]

Brad, I think you and the rest of the Westlake crew have done a fine job porting games to MacOS X. But if you're interested in customer feedback, then I'd also prefer application bundles for games. Control-clicking to "Show Package Contents" is not much of a burden to those who use 3rd-party mods.

Anxiously awaiting Jedi Knight 2...

[spectre]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:

By the way, tell Glenda to work on UT OSX! If she didn't finish it by Dec, it'd be pretty worthless

UT X seems to be in fine shape IMO The only real problem with it is that it gets a little slow at times, especially when everyone is spamming flak. I'm not sure if the mouse aiming is off or not.. either way, I've adjusted to it, and don't notice it.

.. Then again.. I wouldn't mind a few more FPS

[Sarc]

Gimme Deus Ex Carbon Please !!!!

Sarc

[exca1ibur]

No Deus Ex. I emailed them about that about a month ago and they said that will not happen.

One good thing I emailed Blizzard about carbon installers for Starcraft and Diablo 2, and they said they are looking into that. Being you can't install the game unless you are in OS9 then you must update it to run on OSX. So thats a good sign there.

[edddeduck]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

I'm curious though...why are there two apps for Soldier of Fortune II? If both apps make use of the game data folder, then having the data folder outside the bundle is the only sane and non-diskspace-wasting solution.

The other app is a "server" if I remember rightly so it can be used to just host a game on a older server machine. You don't use it except if you want a dedicated server. ie you can be running a server for others but working on FCP3 at the same time.

This is a guess btw.

Cheers Edwin

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Yeah but what Guy is trying to say is that it took other porthouse a long time to catch up with OS X technology. Westlake should have been doing this from the beginning.

To be completely honest, the notion of a draggable installer is one we've lobbied for for a while. I wanted to do one with Alice, but we had problems getting approval from the publishers for that. A lot of PC publishing houses feel that if a game doesn't have an installer, it's incomplete, and it takes quite a bit of work to convince them that things are different on the Mac.

Aside from that, there are cases where an installer is a must: expansion packs for example. They usually add not only a new application but spread out some new data files on an existing install. In these cases, the simplest way is to have the user run the installer.

Expansions also present a problem with bundled apps: if Galactic Battlegrounds shipped as a bundle with the data inside, the expansion application would not be able to easily get at the data from the original since it would have to rely on the original app not being renamed or localized (most of our games ship in French and German as well). If we know or suspect that a game might have an expansion in the future, a bundled version is pretty much out of the question.

Brad

[Leonard]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:

To be completely honest, the notion of a draggable installer is one we've lobbied for for a while. I wanted to do one with Alice, but we had problems getting approval from the publishers for that. A lot of PC publishing houses feel that if a game doesn't have an installer, it's incomplete, and it takes quite a bit of work to convince them that things are different on the Mac.

Maybe you should show the PC publishers a MS-Office CD... the god of PC software uses simple drag and drop. If they use it, it has to be good.

I think of all the install types, I prefer the drag and drop. I don't mind the other types, as long as they don't use OS 9.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Aside from that, there are cases where an installer is a must: expansion packs for example. They usually add not only a new application but spread out some new data files on an existing install. In these cases, the simplest way is to have the user run the installer.

How about using the Apple's Installer in OSX? If Apple is able to update Mail.app with it then anyone can do that too

I don't like the way InstallerVise work. It's stupid to load three same installer icon in the dock. Not so OSX-ish. No matter how good carbon codes is, it's always ugly.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:


How about using the Apple's Installer in OSX? If Apple is able to update Mail.app with it then anyone can do that too

I don't like the way InstallerVise work. It's stupid to load three same installer icon in the dock. Not so OSX-ish. No matter how good carbon codes is, it's always ugly.

That's what gets me too...why is everyone using MindVision's InstallerVise (or whatever it's called), why can't they use packages and use Apple's installer.

This would make installing a little more uniform across the OS.

Two options, bundle drag-and-drop for the simple apps, and Apple's installer for the more complex apps. Why do carbon and even classic installers for OS X programs still exist?

You know what I really hate about installers though? You're never sure where all the files went...unless it's logged in a neat text file.
That's why bundles is the way to go about 90% of the time.

As for games that may get an expansion, why can't some crazy AppleScript or the Apple Installer take care of moving the newly required files into original game bundle. (I am assuming of course that AppleScript can fiddle around with bundle innards...can it?)

As for mods and maps and plugins...moving mods into the 'MODs' folder or 'Maps' folder or 'plugins' folder is no easier than opening the bundle and placing these files in the same folders inside the bundle. Anyone that's hardcore enough to download some new plugins is hardcore enough to know how to handle a bundle.

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
That's what gets me too...why is everyone using MindVision's InstallerVise (or whatever it's called), why can't they use packages and use Apple's installer.

Apple's installer doesn't work on 9. Having said that, I'm not sure why anyone shipping an OSX-only app wouldn't use Apple's installer. Maybe it's not as flexible with multiple-CD installs.

Anyone that's hardcore enough to download some new plugins is hardcore enough to know how to handle a bundle.

Most hardcore gamers who download a plugin or mod won't have too many issues (unless they regularly use words like l33t).

However, there's a very broad and large base of users who buy those Sims expansion packs - moreso than any other game we've worked on. For them, the simplicity of an installer is a necessity, if only to cut down on support calls to pass the first hurdle of just getting the expansion installed.

Brad

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:

Most hardcore gamers who download a plugin or mod won't have too many issues (unless they regularly use words like l33t).

However, there's a very broad and large base of users who buy those Sims expansion packs - moreso than any other game we've worked on. For them, the simplicity of an installer is a necessity, if only to cut down on support calls to pass the first hurdle of just getting the expansion installed.

Brad

Hmmm...I just made a trip to the 'Application Support' folder and 'lo and behold 'Fallout 2' was in there...there, I guess the plugins, maps and saved games reside in there. (2 rules in OS X, you either put everything in the bundle, or you put it in the app support folder)

Surely an AppleScript could install all the things in the App Support folder. But whatever...installers or not, I prefer bundles for anything non-expansion related.

[GoGoReggieXPowars]

Originally posted by Sarc:
Gimme Deus Ex Carbon Please

Not going to happen with a game that old, especially with Deus Ex 2 right around the corner.

By the way, your signature graphic is far outside the 140x40 guidlines. See link below.
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=105196

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Hmmm...I just made a trip to the 'Application Support' folder and 'lo and behold 'Fallout 2' was in there...there, I guess the plugins, maps and saved games reside in there. (2 rules in OS X, you either put everything in the bundle, or you put it in the app support folder)

The "Application Support" folder is per-user, which has its advantages and disadvantages. Assuming that each member in your family has a different login, which is fairly common, you are left with the choice of deciding if the whole family should have access to the mod (which is probably expected behavior for the Sims) or only specific members (which may be appropriate for Q3 games). There are other cases - in Civ3, for example, the high score file is global to all users on the machine instead of per-user.

Brad

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:


The "Application Support" folder is per-user, which has its advantages and disadvantages. Assuming that each member in your family has a different login, which is fairly common, you are left with the choice of deciding if the whole family should have access to the mod (which is probably expected behavior for the Sims) or only specific members (which may be appropriate for Q3 games). There are other cases - in Civ3, for example, the high score file is global to all users on the machine instead of per-user.

Brad

No...use the global Application Support /Library/Application Support for the non-personal support. Saved games and maps go in ~/Library/Application Support and expansions data (or even saved games and maps if you want) goes in /Library/Application Support.

[CheesePuff]

Originally posted by GoGoReggieXPowars:


By the way, your signature graphic is far outside the 140x40 guidlines. See link below.
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=105196

Oh who the hell cares, sheesh, go do something productive with your time.

[ginoledesma]

Some developers mention that Apple's Installer often miscalculates disk space needed (documented bug? "feature"?) among others.

I know Mac OS X changes the layout of things, but there are several Mac users who insist on multiple disks/partitions to separate applications, documents, system-related files, and the like. Several apps that use the Apple installer, when told to install the app on a different volume, creates Mac OS X folders on that volume (e.g. Library/, Applications/), even when the apps themselves refer to the "main" Library or Applications folder (which is on the boot volume). It is relatively safe to remove these, unless of course the installer has placed something required by the application there already.

InstallerVise (at least on Mac OS 9) was smart enough to place certain files in the proper places (e.g., installing Extensions/Control Panels in the proper folder within the System folder). I'm not sure about Mac OS X.

[Rickster]

Interesting thread -- guess I should drop by the MacNN games forum more often.

On our use of installers versus bundles for games -- we much prefer drag-and-drop installs and single-icon apps, so you can expect to see that in future ports unless there's a good reason otherwise. SoF2 had multiple apps which shared data files, and was on a short schedule so we didn't spend time looking for a more elegant way to package it. Giants' installer was put together by MacPlay, not us, and was done before MacPlay had joined us in thinking that DnD installs are better. (Also, it was a 2-CD installer, which is sort of tricky to do via DnD.)

When we package a game as a single-icon bundle, savegames get put in your per-user Application Support folder, since you can't always assume that an app on OS X will have write permission to the place it's installed. (But only savegames. We haven't yet had a bundled game where we've had to worry about plugins. When we do, we'll be putting them somewhere global.)

MacPlay tends to deal with the installers for the ports we've done with them, so we haven't had much involvement in that part of the process (beyond whether a game needs an installer or not). We've certainly learned a few things about installers, though:

• InstallerVISE == Worst. App. Ever. Nearly every game or app updater we've seen based on that technology takes hours and hours to do its job if you should happen to have UFS or NFS volumes mounted, which we do on several of the machines at our office. It didn't work out that well for the Giants installer, either.
• Why don't people use the Apple installer? I'm guessing most Carbon-based ports don't because it doesn't include facilities for patching resource forks in CFM binaries and other anachronisms. Also, it hasn't been all that great for installing/updating stuff that's not always in the same location on every machine (like system stuff) -- however, it's a lot better about that in 10.2, so maybe we'll see some games and/or game updaters that use it.

The stuff about installing add-ons via Get Info: those who doubt such a feature exists can take a look at OmniWeb. There's a Plug-ins section to the inspector when it's selected, with buttons for adding and removing items. Unfortunately, that utility is based entirely on having stuff inside the app package in standard places and standard formats. (However, there is a mechanism for customizing it using Info.plist keys, so maybe we'll be able to use it for future games. I haven't had a chance to look into that yet.)

(BTW: with Apple's installer you can see what files are installed even before you run the installation. Look in the File menu in Installer.app. Also, the skeletal packages it puts in /Library/Receipts have the info needed to find out what files were installed afterwards. Use the lsbom command-line tool.)

...and I think that's about everything in this thread that calls for comments from me. In any case, I've written enough for now.

[exca1ibur]

Well that explains that pretty well and thorough. Thanks Rick.

[Guy Incognito]

Well, Omni has my money for Freedom Force when it comes out and Alien vs Predator 2. Thanks Omni! Btw, nice port on Bejewelled and Alchemy.

Westlake has my money for Jedi Knight 2. If recent news is true, Jedi Knight 2 is making good use of OS X features. Thanks Brad.

[Rickster]

Thanks! Ironically, all this talk of us or Westlake "having your money" is sort of moot -- game porting contracts typically are fixed-rate-up-front, not royalty-based. So the amount we make isn't directly tied to how many copies of a game sell. Of course, some contracts are different...

If you're thanking us for our work on "Bejeweled & Alchemy", the MacPlay Value Series package, your thanks ought to go to someone else (I'm not sure who MacPlay hired for that, but it wasn't us). If you're thanking us for "Bejeweled" and "Alchemy" (separate games, downloadable from .Mac and www.popcap.com), you're welcome! (Yes, there are two different ports of those games. No, I'm not sure how that strange state of affairs came to be. But more Popcap-y goodness is on the way.)

By the way, Kudos to Brad for going above & beyond the call of duty with JK2 -- the mod development tools and stuff sound great. Maybe we'll have to something similar for FreedomForce now.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Rickster:
Thanks! Ironically, all this talk of us or Westlake "having your money" is sort of moot -- game porting contracts typically are fixed-rate-up-front, not royalty-based. So the amount we make isn't directly tied to how many copies of a game sell. Of course, some contracts are different...

If you're thanking us for our work on "Bejeweled & Alchemy", the MacPlay Value Series package, your thanks ought to go to someone else (I'm not sure who MacPlay hired for that, but it wasn't us). If you're thanking us for "Bejeweled" and "Alchemy" (separate games, downloadable from .Mac and www.popcap.com), you're welcome! (Yes, there are two different ports of those games. No, I'm not sure how that strange state of affairs came to be. But more Popcap-y goodness is on the way.)

By the way, Kudos to Brad for going above & beyond the call of duty with JK2 -- the mod development tools and stuff sound great. Maybe we'll have to something similar for FreedomForce now.

Well...whatever...I downloaded your versions of the Popcap games. So, thanks! (I don't think I'd ever pay for such a game though...so I'll never know how the 'other' Bejeweled and Alchemy ports are. And yes, I find it weird that there are two different ports.)