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Guy Incognito 2 · May 19, 2003, 10:46 AM

Halo for PC is now being previewed by some sites and it got me rethinking about the whole mess that surrounds this game:

WTF was Bungie thinking? Thank God MS has deep pockets because that was the one of the most bone-headed move I've seen in the gaming industry.

Bungie started working on Halo for Mac/PC back in 99 (or maybe even before that)...they said back then that they had adopted OpenGL for the game.

Summer 2000 comes along and out of the blue Bungie announces that MS had bought them. No real warnings of any sort.

Changes to Halo had to be made to fit the xbox conrols...the xbox graphics limitations...DirectX 8. What a frickin' waste of time and ressources. Not to mention a major kick in the nutz for Bungie fans.

Finally, it's released.

But for a year, no confirmation on whether Halo was coming to PC/Mac was given. Finally MS gives porters the thumbs up and now the porters are wasting time and ressource porting back what Halo should have been.

Computer to console to computer.
OpenGL to DirectX to OpenGL
Computer controls to console controls to computer controls

What a frickin' joke. Again, I'm gonna sound like a whiny little kid or a bitter old fart but...

I ain't gettin' this game.

In the last 4 years Bungie has released...1 game...for a not so stellar console...and won't be releasing anything else 'till 2004.

Bungie, you're lucky you're being kept alive by Microsoft Lifesupport 2.0. Otherwise, RIP.

parsec_kadets · May 19, 2003, 11:33 AM

From a business prospective it makes sense. MS needed a platform game. A really awesome game that you could only play on X Box. Well that's what they got in Halo. Really they bought Bungie just to get Halo. Why they couldn't enter into some agreement to withhold a PC/Mac version is beyond me. It would have saved MS some money, not that they need it. I'm disappointed too. Halo would have been a really awesome game....in 2000. In 2004 it will be run of the mill at best. Here's hoping some of the folks at Bungie take some of the money they made on that deal to leave the company and start over again.

OwlBoy · May 19, 2003, 12:11 PM

I liked Halo for the XBox!

-Owl

eevyl · May 19, 2003, 12:26 PM

If anyone is to blame, I think is Microsoft. Bungie was going to ship Halo for Mac and PC. Microsoft bought Bungie, so Bungie timeline and plans followed the way of the fireplace.

Microsoft wanted Halo on the XBox, exclusively. So they did.

The XBox sales have been just so f***ng low that Microsoft tries to make money from Halo launching it again for PC and Mac (notice the order of the platforms

)

From my point of view, Bungie was doomed since day one of being bought by Microsoft just for the sake of having another exclusive game developer for the XBox.

IamBob · May 19, 2003, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
[ ... ]
But for a year, no confirmation on whether Halo was coming to PC/Mac was given. Finally MS gives porters the thumbs up and now the porters are wasting time and ressource porting back what Halo should have been.

Computer to console to computer.
OpenGL to DirectX to OpenGL
Computer controls to console controls to computer controls

What a frickin' joke. Again, I'm gonna sound like a whiny little kid or a bitter old fart but...

I ain't gettin' this game.

[ ... ]

Bungie, you're lucky you're being kept alive by Microsoft Lifesupport 2.0. Otherwise, RIP.

CVS? I'm sure they didn't just trash all the work they did on the original version. They filed it away for later use, maybe, and are now bringing it up/down to what the XBox version is. Hard to say for sure though, you could be right.

Little kid or old fart, hmm...you choose!

I'm not buying either.

I thought MS was up to LifeSupport XP (SP1)? Maybe Bungie hasn't upgraded yet.

gizzard · May 19, 2003, 03:35 PM

Great, another game that I won't be experiencing with Guy. That's two, UT2003 and Halo. Tell me which others so I know which games to buy.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 19, 2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by gizzard:
Great, another game that I won't be experiencing with Guy. That's two, UT2003 and Halo. Tell me which others so I know which games to buy.

Oh...*you* can buy Halo. I'm not stopping you.

Brad Oliver · May 19, 2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:

Bungie started working on Halo for Mac/PC back in 99 (or maybe even before that)...they said back then that they had adopted OpenGL for the game.

...

Computer to console to computer.
OpenGL to DirectX to OpenGL
Computer controls to console controls to computer controls

I think you're greatly exaggerating the impact of these changes. Going from computer controls to console controls is not exactly rocket science. And given that the XBox is basically a PC with DX8 and special shader programmability, it's not exactly an earth-shattering step.

Furthermore, if, as you state, it was announced in '99 that Halo was going to use OpenGL, I'd like to point out that it wasn't until late '99 that the first Mac game to use hardware OpenGL shipped. How much OpenGL code do you suppose Bungie had written - and how likely is it that their GL code from back then would necessarily have to be rewritten anyway for better performance today?

I ain't gettin' this game.

What a bold step! Someone is going to boycott Halo, not for what it is, but for what they perceive it isn't. I'll alert IMG and MacGamer so they can run a story.

voodoo · May 19, 2003, 08:26 PM

We got OpenGL in 99? Yikes! That is like late isn't it?

beb · May 19, 2003, 08:47 PM

I think Steve should ship Halo on every mac as an apology for getting our hopes up so long ago. Then hopefully, a couple of enterprising young Apple engineers can tweak the game to make it run flawlessly.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 19, 2003, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
I think you're greatly exaggerating the impact of these changes. Going from computer controls to console controls is not exactly rocket science. And given that the XBox is basically a PC with DX8 and special shader programmability, it's not exactly an earth-shattering step.

Ok...but the controls change the pace of the game does it not? I wasn't aware that there was an auto-aim in the xbox version...but it doesn't surprise me. Precision-aiming with a gamepad is like trying not to miss the toilet bowl while you're piss drunk! Surely without auto-aim and the easy mouse-aiming, the game has been made a little more difficult...enemies faster, smarter, etc. Right? Wrong? I dunno...you guys are all keeping this a very big secret and it's not helping me decide whether I want this game or not.

But I'm glad these are all easy issues for you guys. Keep up the good work.

Furthermore, if, as you state, it was announced in '99 that Halo was going to use OpenGL, I'd like to point out that it wasn't until late '99 that the first Mac game to use hardware OpenGL shipped. How much OpenGL code do you suppose Bungie had written - and how likely is it that their GL code from back then would necessarily have to be rewritten anyway for better performance today?

That could have been a possibility. But, today the game would have been close to 2 and a half years old. How many games does the port house you work for support that long?

As far as I can tell as soon as the contract given to Westlake runs out, we can kiss future support goodbye.

What a bold step! Someone is going to boycott Halo, not for what it is, but for what they perceive it isn't. I'll alert IMG and MacGamer so they can run a story.

It's actually more an issue of boycotting Bungie and MS which now perceive Mac users as afterthoughts.

And sure...you can run a story on how I've grown to hate Bungie and MS.

blizzard · May 19, 2003, 09:31 PM

Halo 2 is getting pretty rave reviews. It doesn't sound like Bungie is resting on its laurels. Also, I doubt Bungie had to design for the graphics limitations of the XBox when the game was originally demonstrated running on a far less powerful Power Mac G3. Which still kinda baffles me, because the min reqs on Halo for the Mac will NOT be what was originally used in the Macworld demonstrations...we'll see how that goes. I'm seriously considering getting an XBox at this point rather than upgrading the processor in my G4 because it seems like by far the cheapest solution to getting a computer capable of playing Half Life 2, Doom 3, and Halo 2. That, and I don't have an irrational dislike of MS....yet.

Adam Betts · May 19, 2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by blizzard:
I'm seriously considering getting an XBox at this point rather than upgrading the processor in my G4 because it seems like by far the cheapest solution to getting a computer capable of playing Half Life 2, Doom 3, and Halo 2. That, and I don't have an irrational dislike of MS....yet.

Half Life 2 will be available on XBOX? I doubt it.

mac freak · May 19, 2003, 10:34 PM

As retarded as the whole situation is, the fact that Halo is still a first-rate FPS is not diminished. I eagerly await the Mac/PC release

.

Brad Oliver · May 19, 2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
I dunno...you guys are all keeping this a very big secret and it's not helping me decide whether I want this game or not.

You've already decided: you're not buying it, remember?

How many games does the port house you work for support that long?

As far as I can tell as soon as the contract given to Westlake runs out, we can kiss future support goodbye.

Then you're not paying attention. I did an OSX version of Alpha Centauri a full 2 years after it was released. Glenda was updating Unreal and UT for close to 2 years after both titles shipped as well. I just did a Civ3 patch - a hair over 2 years after it shipped on the Mac, and I've got an Alice patch sitting at Aspyr, waiting for approval. It'll hit its 2 year anniversary this summer.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 20, 2003, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
You've already decided: you're not buying it, remember?

Right. Thanks for reminding me.

Then you're not paying attention. I did an OSX version of Alpha Centauri a full 2 years after it was released. Glenda was updating Unreal and UT for close to 2 years after both titles shipped as well. I just did a Civ3 patch - a hair over 2 years after it shipped on the Mac, and I've got an Alice patch sitting at Aspyr, waiting for approval. It'll hit its 2 year anniversary this summer.

I think you guys were still under contract for the Unreals...and you guys weren't updating UT for 'close to 2 years'.

Glad to see there's a patch for Alive 'waiting for approval'...

schwa · May 20, 2003, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
I just did a Civ3 patch - a hair over 2 years after it shipped on the Mac

There's a new Civ 3 patch?

Duo · May 20, 2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Half Life 2 will be available on XBOX? I doubt it.

Why not? M$ could just buy Sierra

Adam Betts · May 20, 2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Duo:
Why not? M$ could just buy Sierra

Let's pray that it won't happen!

MilkmanDan · May 20, 2003, 01:00 PM

My roomies and I wasted a semester playing HALO on our campus network. But we found that a FPS for the XBox lacked certain key features. Like the ability to send messages to your teammates (CTF sucks when half the team doesn't know what the other half is doing), or the ability to download new maps (well, duh, I mean, new maps are what keeps multiplayer alive), and the fact that we all had to use very little screens when playing 4 person (someone went as far as to set up a wall projector for his XBox). We also found the 16 player limit (or 4 XBoxes limit) rather annoying when we wanted more people, or more than 4 XBoxes (but still under 16 people) to play. Anyhow having a PC/Mac version will improve on all these issues. Plus from what I've heard it should be a slightly better version of the game than the XBox version. (plus everyone will have a bootleged version they got off our network, so more people can play the game)

Ok, about Bungie. So they got bought. Good for them. From what I've read all the main Bungie people have left the company by this point. Bottom line, they now have lots of money and can go off and do new stuff. Sure it was a loss for the gaming community (and Mac community) but I must agree with their move. They make games for MONEY. I mean, many fo us probably would have done the same.

Lastly, what do you mean theres an Alpha Centauri OS X update?!?! Did I miss something? Please send me a message to where I might find this update!

Brad Oliver · May 20, 2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
I think you guys were still under contract for the Unreals...and you guys weren't updating UT for 'close to 2 years'.\

You make this too easy, Guy.

You're wrong on the first point. As for the second, UT for the Mac was released in January 2000, and the OSX pb3 build was released in April 2002.

Brad Oliver · May 20, 2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by MilkmanDan:
Lastly, what do you mean theres an Alpha Centauri OS X update?!?! Did I miss something? Please send me a message to where I might find this update!

Here:

http://www.brad-oliver.com:8080/~bol...MAC_Carbon.sit

Brad Oliver · May 20, 2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by schwa:
There's a new Civ 3 patch?

Yes, 1.29 beta 2:

http://www.brad-oliver.com:8080/~boliver/Civ3_129b2.sit

blizzard · May 20, 2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Half Life 2 will be available on XBOX? I doubt it.

Word on the internet is that while Half Life 2 will be PC-first, an XBox version will be forthcoming. And why wouldn't they? It's easy to port and it gives them more money. Pretty easy business decision!

Guy Incognito 2 · May 20, 2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
You make this too easy, Guy. You're wrong on the first point. As for the second, UT for the Mac was released in January 2000, and the OSX pb3 build was released in April 2002.

Oh that unofficial piece of ****? Yeah...I appreciate that 'update'. Thanks Glenda. That last upgrade reaaaally impressed me.

Now I understand what you mean by 'supporting a game'. I guess you're right...Glenda was under no contract and did keep 'supporting' UT. Silly me.

Brad Oliver · May 20, 2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Glad to see there's a patch for Alice 'waiting for approval'...

Since I'm on a roll today, here are links to the almost-final Alice patches. I've been waiting for them to get approved so I can create a real updater, so you'll have to do the file copying by hand for now.

If you're using MacOS 8.6:

http://www.brad-oliver.com:8080/~bol...lice_11_86.sit

If you're using 9.0 or higher:

http://www.brad-oliver.com:8080/~boliver/Alice_11.sit

This patch contains a few notable crash fixes, SMP support, compressed texture support and joystick support.

blizzard · May 20, 2003, 08:22 PM

I'm happy that Alice was patched, but unfortunately the update seriously busted the game for me. I can't load any of my old games (the game always unexpectedly quits), so I restarted the game to see what all the new graphics options looked like...and now I can't pick up the skull wand on the table to proceed past level two.

I can send you the crash log if you would like...it's a little long to post here but if I can get an email address or something I'd gladly do it that way.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 20, 2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by blizzard:
I'm happy that Alice was patched, but unfortunately the update seriously busted the game for me. I can't load any of my old games (the game always unexpectedly quits), so I restarted the game to see what all the new graphics options looked like...and now I can't pick up the skull wand on the table to proceed past level two.

I can send you the crash log if you would like...it's a little long to post here but if I can get an email address or something I'd gladly do it that way.

Maybe Brad secretly wanted me to download it so it would mess up Alice or my computer real bad and so I'd shut up.

I don't have Alice though.

Brad Oliver · May 20, 2003, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by blizzard:
[BI can send you the crash log if you would like...it's a little long to post here but if I can get an email address or something I'd gladly do it that way. [/B]

E-mail the crash log and some saved games that demonstrate the crash and the "can't pick up skull" error to bradman@pobox.com.

I'm assuming you aren't running 8.6. Did you delete the 3 shared libraries as indicated in the readme?

blizzard · May 21, 2003, 12:35 AM

Sent. And nope, it's on 10.2.6...I looked in the Readme and on the Aspyr website but couldn't find anything that sounded like it would help.

schwa · May 21, 2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Yes, 1.29 beta 2:

http://www.brad-oliver.com:8080/~boliver/Civ3_129b2.sit

Sweeeeeet! Thanks!

bousozoku · May 21, 2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Maybe Brad secretly wanted me to download it so it would mess up Alice or my computer real bad and so I'd shut up.

I don't have Alice though.

If that would really work, I'd develop patches for you.

Is there anything that would make you happy about something? All I've ever seen is that you're not buying something because someone isn't going to do what you want.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 21, 2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by bousozoku:
If that would really work, I'd develop patches for you.

Is there anything that would make you happy about something? All I've ever seen is that you're not buying something because someone isn't going to do what you want.

Well...the Diablo 2 1.10 patch coming in about 3 weeks is making me happy. Is that good enough?

I already bought that game though.

bousozoku · May 21, 2003, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Well...the Diablo 2 1.10 patch coming in about 3 weeks is making me happy. Is that good enough?

I already bought that game though.

It's a start.

justinkim · May 21, 2003, 11:30 PM

Hey, Brad. If you feel like spilling -- You think my 1GHz Titanium will have the juice to play Halo? I know it's probably a little early in the development cycle, but I'll take a WAG

No worries if you don't feel comfortable commenting.

Brad Oliver · May 22, 2003, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by justinkim:
Hey, Brad. If you feel like spilling -- You think my 1GHz Titanium will have the juice to play Halo?

Duane and Ken have been doing all of the Halo work for the past month or two while I've been on EQ, so they'd be the people to ask now. Having said that, it's probably still too early to tell.