[phillryu]

Hey guys, does anyone know how I could do this? I tried imaging my disk, but disk image kinda froze on doing it, and the toast image isn't recognized. I tried creating a blank disk image with the name Alice, doesn't work.

The strange thing is, I swear I had this working before! Like two years ago, possibly 10.1. I hope this isn't something that was added in a recent patch.

However, that said, the reason I'm so interested again is because Alice actually runs decently on 1024 res on a 600mhz ibook with an 8mb graphics card! With the new patch and panther, it's an amazing jump from the last time I played it, and I think I could really enjoy it this time.

-phill

[Johnny_B]

In before the lock

[phillryu]

Dude, this is asking for a way to create a disk image or whatever.. I'm pretty sure my previous Frozen Throne threads and the reign of chaos threads are not yet locked.

This isn't pirating, can you get that into your head? I have the CD right here, and I can use it, and I am using it, but on a laptop, I'd rather not! It uses up battery!

[IamBob]

Just wanted to get in before the lock too.

phillryu, it's a lame board policy to lock any threads asking about No-CD patches/workarounds. Them's the breaks.

Why!? I dunno.

[sideus]

Just like the threads before it.

[phillryu]

I'd like to point you towards this thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...en+throne+nocd

Which is still unlocked, and has links to disk images from Adam Betts. Since when has it been a board policy?

[joe]

Originally posted by IamBob:
phillryu, it's a lame board policy to lock any threads asking about No-CD patches/workarounds.

Damn right - that is lame!!! If anything, key-disc protection makes me less likely to want to buy the damn game. It's a total PITA to have to dig through all your discs every time. I'd go one step further and say it's only a minor annoyance to someone that pirated the games - but a SLAP IN THE FACE to someone like me that actually bought them!!! Maybe if they made you use the key disc the 1st time you installed it to your hard drive then it wouldn't be so much of a hassle - but each and every f'ing time you play?!?! That sucks big time!!! But the real problem? You don't find out about it until AFTER you bought it! Then you're stuck and can't return it due to even lamer shrink-wrap licensing. Talk about a catch-22. They hide it from you (I kept the boxes and it's not listed) - then stick it to you and you can't get you're money back!

What we really need is some kind of database of which titles have key-disc protection. If they're going to keep locking threads about bypassing it then why not start a thread that lists which titles have it. Then at least you know before you buy. If the game is that good - maybe. But personally I'd avoid most of those games on prinicpal. I've been burned enough already. Noone likes to be treated like a criminal each and every time you play a game that you paid good money for :/ .....joe

[phillryu]

Wipeout, one game I bought but never played because I can't play on a network with one cd. Is this reasonable? I think so, I bought it!

Heroes of Might and Magic IV: Another game I bought, found out that it requires cd, can't image it. Stopped playing it, now play it since the newer patches don't require a cd anymore, glad they got it into their heads!

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by phillryu:
I have the CD right here, and I can use it, and I am using it, but on a laptop, I'd rather not! It uses up battery!

It doesn't - I tested it on an iBook myself. It'll spin up the disk once when you launch, and then that's it. The impact on the battery life from this is not measurable, but if it bothers you, eject the CD when you get to the main menu of Alice.

[IamBob]

Since when has it been a board policy?

Not sure since I'm not a moderator and have poor memory anyway.

Here and here are a couple locked threads about No-CD patches/workarounds. Both of those are still on the main page. Maybe the moderators are napping and haven't gotten here yet. Maybe they haven't gone through the entire forum looking for No-CD threads yet...

...yet. And you just handed them another thread to lock.

See, It's not illegal to talk (broadly) about No-CD patches but it is illegal to supply/apply them. You've heard of the DMCA, right? Did you read the Shift-key story that came out recently?...

It doesn't matter how piss-poor the copy protection is, if you circumvent it and/or let others know how to do it you can come under fire.

This isn't pirating, can you get that into your head? I have the CD right here, and I can use it, and I am using it, but on a laptop, I'd rather not!

And how do we know you're not a pirate? Oh, because you said so...? Not that I care either way, personally.

Get pissed all you want but it's still illegal to circumvent any sort of copy protection. I wouldn't risk my life (I really wouldn't like being in jail/paying a huge fine) so that you can play some game without a CD.

Yeah, it's stupid and I wish I could play some of my games without a CD too. That doesn't mean I'm going to ask someone on MacNN to help me violate the DMCA....that would be supremely stupid. I'd find another source of info where there's at least a little more anonymity.

Good luck!

[edit: forgot to add the urls]

[phillryu]

What I don't get is why circumventing a cd while playing is a roadblock for pirating... can't pirates burn CD's too? It seems like a pretty ineffective way and a hassle for non piraters...

[voodoo]

IBL

I think we can very well discuss fair use. If we can ask how to rip music from CDs to HD is OK, then making images or copies of data CDs you own must be OK as well.

No CD patches are over the line though. They have nothing to do with fair use.

[joe]

Originally posted by phillryu:
What I don't get is why circumventing a cd while playing is a roadblock for pirating... can't pirates burn CD's too? It seems like a pretty ineffective way and a hassle for non piraters...

Exactly! It doesn't stop piracy, I doubt it slows them down much either. I'm not against having some form of disc copy protection. But there has to be a better way. There probably already is since many of my games don't use key-disc protection. Short of finding a better proection method they really need to indicate to customers that they're using this form of copy protection since it effects the end user each and every single time they run it.....joe

[joe]

Originally posted by voodoo:
No CD patches are over the line though. They have nothing to do with fair use.

I disagree. Those patches improve the gaming experience and make it much more convenient to attend LAN parties, users group meetings, or just the general convenience of the legit owner at home. And if you attend a lot of LAN parties or meetings then key-disc protection actually increases the chances of some pirate getting hold of your software and duping it because your dragging your discs around with you!

By constrast, when the game is fully installed to your hard drive it's a helluva lot harder for someone to go in and grab everything. Especially since installing the game can spread it all over the place. I can't understand why the heck this outdated and ineffective form of "protection" is still in use. There has to be a better way.......joe

[blizzard]

You guys caught me in the middle of modterms....good show. Locking No-CD threads became a board policy when it started becoming obvious that a number of developers (whom I consider to be VERY important members of this community) started registering complaints that what could easily be construed as aiding piracy was an open (and not only open but COMMON) form of conversation here. However, I agree that this does very little to stop pirates, because if someone wants a game then this step certainly won't stop them. I'm still open to convincing either way, so if we can get some of the developers to weigh in on this then I can update my decision.

So for now, this thread will stay open for DISCUSSION of whether No CD threads should be allowed.

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by blizzard:
So for now, this thread will stay open for DISCUSSION of whether No CD threads should be allowed.

You're allowed to make a backup of CDs under US law, but under the DMCA, you're not allowed to circumvent anti-piracy measures. The CD check is a form of that, like it or not, and regardless of whether you think it's ineffectual.

If you want to foster that here, I won't talk you out of it, but I don't think it's doing anyone any favors. Heck, it tells me how the checks are being circumvented so I can close those holes - is that what you want?

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by joe:
And if you attend a lot of LAN parties or meetings then key-disc protection actually increases the chances of some pirate getting hold of your software and duping it because your dragging your discs around with you!

You think it more likely that someone will steal the physical CD from you (which in theory would be in your CD drive) than rip it off your computer (or just copy it from you willingly) via the net at a LAN party? I respectfully disagree.

By constrast, when the game is fully installed to your hard drive it's a helluva lot harder for someone to go in and grab everything. Especially since installing the game can spread it all over the place.

Most games, at least on the Mac, install to one folder on your hard drive. I'm not aware of any current games that spread themselves all over the place.

There has to be a better way

What would that be? The best way is to check your serial number over the net, but this only really works with games that have strong netplay components, like Quake 3 or the Blizzard games.

[voodoo]

The DMCA does not apply to anyone outside the U.S.A. fortunately. As such I see nothing wrong with circumventing copyprotection schemes to use my game/cd/whateverdigitalmedia in a fair way. I am adamant on this. The DMCA is a low blow against American users, but not anyone else. Now, I think it should be absolutely OK for us to discuss how to copy digital media. If you do it in 99% of the countries on Earth it won't matter. If you are caught breaking copyright for personal use in the US they jail you.

Don't be so incredibly US-centric. There is a world out there you know. A world that will never adapt anything like the DMCA. Yick.

Also, discussing things isn't terrible. Thoughts aren't a crime. Sharing thoughts certainly isn't. Promoting piracy is not a good thing though so this forum will naturally avoid promoting such activity. The thing is that people must realize is that pirates don't come to MacNN and ask for advice how to hack some protection scheme. They have their own private forums for that. The people who post here have legitimate questions on how to be able to use fairly the product they bought. Only in America is it illegal to circumvent the copyprotection. Let that be a decision of the individual American. They can take responsibility of themselves. The rest of the civilized world is not breaking any laws.

I admit it is a gray area but I am a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty and fair use. You should always be able to make a backup of media you got.

[joe]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Also, discussing things isn't terrible. Thoughts aren't a crime. Sharing thoughts certainly isn't.

You would thing so. But sometimes merely asking the question can start a near riot. Personally, I agree with you and am against this highly annoying and ineffective form of "protection." It's been a particular pet peeve of mine for years - well before the lame DMCA was arounnd.......joe

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Don't be so incredibly US-centric. There is a world out there you know.

Speaking of being blind to other nations, there are DMCA-like laws in several other countries as well: http://wiki.ael.be/index.php/EUCD-Status

Making a fair use backup is within the bounds of good taste, circumventing the CD check is not. Most Mac publishers don't use methods that prevent you from making fair use copies of the CDs (i.e. SafeDisc), and I think we'd all like to see it stay that way.

[joe]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
You think it more likely that someone will steal the physical CD from you (which in theory would be in your CD drive) than rip it off your computer (or just copy it from you willingly) via the net at a LAN party? I respectfully disagree.

You're presuming that no-one else can have permission to use my computer (and vice versa), we have people that don't want to play standing around watching over and counting discs when we take lunch/smoke/piss breaks, and that a lot of us aren't already po'd about having to deal with that type of intrusive and annoying copy proection that pops up EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME we want to run the game. Don't misunderstand - I don't mind copy protection and own several copy protected games that I thouroughly enjoy. But I believe copy protection should be a hassle to the pirates and not to legitimate money paying end users. If you think I'm over-reacting then how about advertising on the front of the box which games include CD-in copy protection. Then advertise which games specifically use a non-instrusive copy protection. See how it effects profits when people have a choice.

Most games, at least on the Mac, install to one folder on your hard drive. I'm not aware of any current games that spread themselves all over the place.

You mean like Quake3, Dialbo2, and Virtual Game Station? All their files are in one folder? Not on my computer. Assuming someone did try to rip me off before I caught them it's unlikely they'd get it all. WTF - they wouldn't have to. In fact, they wouldn't have to copy my discs either much less my hard drive. Any idiot can find it online if they really wanted to. And that in particular is what makes the key-disc hassle seem like a slap in the face! I paid and have to put up with the hassle EVERY TIME. Yet I own other copy protected games that work perfectly without being a PITA.

What would that be? The best way is to check your serial number over the net, but this only really works with games that have strong netplay components, like Quake 3 or the Blizzard games.

I guess I'm just lucky enough to have bought those games then, eh? I think there's more to it than playing online. I own Quake 1, 2, and 3 for Mac but never played online until Quake3. I still don't play online that much because of my slow connection. But those games and copy protection still work regardless if I play local or online or on a LAN for that matter. It's completely hassle-free to me - the legitimate owner. So I've gotten to the point where I simply won't buy the game if I know it has that CD-required nonsense installed. OK - I might make an exception if the game is really that good. But I own some awesome games without that crap installed so I'm much less likely to put up with it in a new game.......joe

[joe]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Making a fair use backup is within the bounds of good taste, circumventing the CD check is not.

I wish you would quit trying to wrap that up as a form of legitimate copy protection. Of course I agree about not circumventing copy protection. I haven't circumvented any of mine though I've been tempted to for the few that use this crap. All CD-required "protection" does is lump the consumers in with the pirates. And then remind you of it each and every time you run it. There are MUCH better forms of copy proection that operate without being a PITA to consumers.

As for the law, publishers already have shrink wrap along with the DMCA. Shrink wrap means you can't know exactly what you're buying until it's too late - and that includes demos since they don't mention CD-in. Even a new auto has more consumer protection since it operates the same before AND AFTER the sale - or the dealer makes it so. As for the DMCA, it's so one-sided it's become a source of outrage for even the most casual consumer. It's time we (consumers) got some form of software rights legislation. Maybe something along the lines of software lemon law - that's long overdue. And the biggest lemon (actually a hot, stinking, steaming pile of horse sh?t) is that damned CD-in crap........joe

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by joe:
You're presuming that no-one else can have permission to use my computer (and vice versa)...

But if that's the case, then it doesn't make a difference if you have a physical CD or not, if other folks have access to your Mac when you're not around. They either copy it off your hard drive or take the CD.

Yet I own other copy protected games that work perfectly without being a PITA.

As I said earlier, suggest something better. What are these non-PITA copy-protection methods?

You mean like Quake3, Dialbo2, and Virtual Game Station? All their files are in one folder? Not on my computer.

Look again. They might store preferences or downloaded maps somewhere else, but that's about it. If I wanted to rip it off your hard drive, I frankly don't want or need whatever mods or maps you've stashed somewhere else, since those aren't part of the initial game install. Some of those do install GameSprockets or QuickTime or updated video drivers, but that's not really an issue since those can be downloaded and installed via Apple. Everything that gets installed by the game itself goes into one folder. Heck, Virtual Game Station is just one file - the app itself.

I guess I'm just lucky enough to have bought those games then, eh?

If you bought the Blizzard games, you've no doubt noticed by now that they have a CD check in addition to the online serial number check.

In all seriousness, name the games that don't have a CD check. That list pretty much contains Quake 1, 2 and 3. Quake 1 and 2 are open-source, and Q3 has a net-based scheme which works fine since it's almost solely a net-based game. The original UT had the CD check removed a little over a year into the game's life, which seems fair.

I wish you would quit trying to wrap that up as a form of legitimate copy protection.

Hey, I'm not trying to sell it as a perfect solution by any means, but the fact remains that it is used for just that. Suggest something better, and I'll gladly run it up the flagpole.

[joe]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
If you bought the Blizzard games, you've no doubt noticed by now that they have a CD check in addition to the online serial number check.

"If" You gotta love the implications. I realize you have no easy way of knowing. But a lot of us that bought the games are tired of always being put on the defensive. Yes, I played my original D2 game using the lame CD-in protection for over a year before a friend told me about the workaround with making a disc image. It wasn't a hack though, it was OSX disk copy and it had the added benefit of improving gaming performance quite a lot. Unfortunately disk copy doesn't work with most other CD-in games. And since you mentioned the serial number check, I don't mind having to enter numbers or use copy protected discs during the installation. It's the incessant, repeated bitching that my games with CD-in "protection" do that makes me wish I never bought them in the 1st place.

In all seriousness, name the games that don't have a CD check. That list pretty much contains Quake 1, 2 and 3. Quake 1 and 2 are open-source, and Q3 has a net-based scheme which works fine since it's almost solely a net-based game.

You seemed to already know which games ahead of time. Still, I own the original Q1 and Q2 CDs and they weren't open source when I bought them. Yes, I also own the original Unreal - but again, you knew about that too. About the only copy protection you didn't explain away is Virtual Games Station. It's been so long since I installed it (and the updates) that I don't remember if it was serial number, copy protected CD, or something else. But you're wrong about all the files being located in one place. I ran into a problem when I tried to use Firewire Target Disk mode to tranfer games (and everything else) from a Mac I was about to sell to a newer Mac. VGS was one of the games that didn't work afterwards. It refused to launch and had to be re-installed along with all the upgrades. It wasn't the only game, but it's one that I recall.

Hey, I'm not trying to sell it as a perfect solution by any means, but the fact remains that it is used for just that. Suggest something better, and I'll gladly run it up the flagpole.

OK - how about key-disc and serial numbers during the installation? Those seem to work at least with the games we've both mentioned above. And that's including games that don't go online. But I'm guessing you're going to shoot that down since you ignored off line games above. So how about something different - like maybe something similar to what NIS2003 does. Have a security check built into the game to verify it wasn't tampered with since installation including someone trying to use a different serial or play disc. Wouldn't a checksum or encrypted key generated during installation accomplish that? And to protect against an occasional hard drive crash or corrupted file, require the original disc and/or serial numbers to verify the customer is the correct owner if necessary (like after Disk Repair). Another idea: copy-proof discs. I remember that with old floppy games and I'm not fond of it. But CDs are more durable and last a lot longer than floppies. So it's not likely they would fail as often. Finally, how about an online install validation during the initial run of the game. I'm not talking about registration here - but a software check of the original CD, game serial numbers, Nac serial number and installation to be sure it's genuine. That's seems a little too Orwellian for me. But if it's only done during the install and if it gets rid of all that damned "insert CD" bitching then I'm willing.

Well - do any of those seem like reasonable alternatives?.....joe

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by joe:
About the only copy protection you didn't explain away is Virtual Games Station.

See below.

But you're wrong about all the files being located in one place. I ran into a problem when I tried to use Firewire Target Disk mode to tranfer games (and everything else) from a Mac I was about to sell to a newer Mac. VGS was one of the games that didn't work afterwards.

This has nothing to do with spreading files everywhere. The installer locks the binary to your hardware, so you're forced to run the installer if you want to make your copy legit. It's actually not too bad a method. If you simply copy CVGS, it'll notice it's on new hardware and refuse to run.

OK - how about key-disc and serial numbers during the installation?

Actually, that seems fairly reasonable. The gotcha is that more and more, games aren't using installers, they're just drag-n-drop from the CD to your hard drive. I suppose they could sublaunch a verification app the first time though. This definitely bears investigation.

Of course, then you have a case where people complain about losing serial numbers, which inevitably leads to increased calls to support to find those lost serial numbers (and verify ownership) and thus increased costs for the game itself. It would be more than the current method, but I'm not sure if it's significantly more.

Wouldn't a checksum or encrypted key generated during installation accomplish that? And to protect against an occasional hard drive crash or corrupted file, require the original disc and/or serial numbers to verify the customer is the correct owner if necessary (like after Disk Repair).

This is an interesting idea. My first reaction is that this will complicate the process of updates and patches, since they'll have different checksums and will need new ones generated. That's probably not insurmountable though.

Another idea: copy-proof discs. I remember that with old floppy games and I'm not fond of it. But CDs are more durable and last a lot longer than floppies.

You mean like SafeDisc? This essentially tramples on your fair-use rights to make a backup, so odds are it'll meet much stiffer resistance than the current CD check.

Finally, how about an online install validation during the initial run of the game. I'm not talking about registration here - but a software check of the original CD, game serial numbers, Nac serial number and installation to be sure it's genuine.

This wouldn't fly - if the company ever went out of business and you needed to reinstall the game, you'd be screwed because you'd be unable to validate online against the defunct company.

There are some good ideas in there. I should point out, before anyone gets overly excited, that PC publishers have been known to stipulate that the Mac version contain a CD check in the porting contracts, so it's unlikely we'll ever see the complete end of them.

[Osirisis]

Just a thought. Concerning the CD key or Serial Number option. Couldn't information from such a thing be stored in the Mac OS keychain? Keychain requires authentication once when you first log onto the system. I'm sure I'm not thinking through all the details, but just thought I'd throw it out there to see if it could be considered in lieu of CD checks.

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Osirisis:
Just a thought. Concerning the CD key or Serial Number option. Couldn't information from such a thing be stored in the Mac OS keychain? Keychain requires authentication once when you first log onto the system. I'm sure I'm not thinking through all the details, but just thought I'd throw it out there to see if it could be considered in lieu of CD checks.

That's another interesting thought, and it's definitely practical for anything that's OSX-only. Like you, I haven't thought through the details to determine how feasible it is, but it defintiely bears consideration.

[joe]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
There are some good ideas in there. I should point out, before anyone gets overly excited, that PC publishers have been known to stipulate that the Mac version contain a CD check in the porting contracts, so it's unlikely we'll ever see the complete end of them.

Thanx, I sincerely appreciate your actually listening and discussing the suggestions. And in particular, taking the time to explain why some of them may be turn out to be reasonable alternatives to CD-in checks. I'm not trying to be a kias ass here. But I've recently found some developers flat out refuse to even consider ideas other than their own and treat you like total a piece of sh?t. I was expecting something similar here, it's nice to be wrong about that

But on the downside, why the hell do PC publishers insist on a CD check if there are more consumer-friendly protection methods avaialble? Do the PC versions also contain this CD check? If so, they've surely taken a lot of heat from paying customers over this. What's the point of having all that hard drive space if you're continuatlly digging through your collection of discs to make the game run?!?!.......joe

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by joe:
But on the downside, why the hell do PC publishers insist on a CD check if there are more consumer-friendly protection methods avaialble? Do the PC versions also contain this CD check? If so, they've surely taken a lot of heat from paying customers over this. What's the point of having all that hard drive space if you're continuatlly digging through your collection of discs to make the game run?!?!

I can only guess, but for most PC publishers, SafeDisc is a pretty effective means of copy protection, at the expense of your ability to make a fair use backup of the CD. I would presume that piracy is a much larger issue for them than for us on the Mac, so they probably feel that it's a better tradeoff over there. I would also imagine that the support costs for dealing with lost serial numbers are a lot higher because of the much larger number of PC gamers. We all know how much smarter and more organized Mac gamers are, right?

On the topic of lost serial numbers, I've given this process some more thought. It seems to me that the tolerance level for this is going to have to be pretty low. If you lose your serial number and can't validate the game when you install it, I think you'll only have two options.

One: if you've registered the game with the publisher at install time before, you're home-free since that will have transmitted your serial number to the publisher's database.

Two: if you didn't register, you're going to need to provide some concrete proof that you own the game. E-mailed or photocopied receipts aren't going to cut it, since those can be photoshopped/faked pretty easily. If you bought it through the publisher's website, you should be home free since they'll have a record. If not, you'd probably have to mail in either a physical CD, your reg card with the serial number sticker or a UPC from the box bottom. I don't think any other method would work. And I don't think you could reasonably expect the publisher to pick up your cost to ship the proof back to the publisher.

Perhaps the best thing to do is come up with some way to virtually force the registration process the first time you install, because having your copy registered with the publisher is going to be, far and away, the easiest way to prove your ownership and the most cost-effective and time-saving for everyone involved.

The major problem to this approach is going to be what happens if you re-register by accident when you re-install the game (let's say you spell your name different, or get married and use a different last name), or if you happen to sell the game and someone re-registers with your former serial number. Obviously, the online registration process will need to be vigilant about too many of the same serial number being registered. That's a problem that'll need to be solved.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Making a fair use backup is within the bounds of good taste, circumventing the CD check is not. Most Mac publishers don't use methods that prevent you from making fair use copies of the CDs (i.e. SafeDisc), and I think we'd all like to see it stay that way.

Yes! I think we see eye to eye.

[rjenkinson]

if you have roxio toast, you can create a disc image and mount it on the desktop. this may work even when disk copy doesn't.

-r.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by rjenkinson:
if you have roxio toast, you can create a disc image and mount it on the desktop. this may work even when disk copy doesn't.

-t.

you meant

-r.

right?

I mean... um. I think I'll have a cigarette now and die slowly but surely.

[joe]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
On the topic of lost serial numbers, I've given this process some more thought. It seems to me that the tolerance level for this is going to have to be pretty low. If you lose your serial number and can't validate the game when you install it, I think you'll only have two options.

I agree with the 2 options. However, I've yet to loose any serial numbers with my games. I'm not particuarly organized. But I think the practice of printing the numbers on the jewel box instead of the card board packaging or manuals has been very successful. The game boxes are the 1st thing to get tossed because they take up so much space. And the documentation may be lost or seem lost in a pile of paperwork. But the jewel cases are ideal - not too large that you want to throw them out, but easy enough to sort through if you've got to look up your serial.

However, your description of Virtual Game Station's copy protection makes it seem like the best solution of all. Essentially, it's invisible to the end user - yet ties itself to your own particular Mac hardware. There's nothing to loose and it doesn't work if someone tries to copy it - even legitmately as I did when upgrading to a new Mac. And since it's self contained within the the installation disc, there's no need to bother the publisher (though I wouldn't mind pestering Sony for killing this kick-ass product). Why not try use this type of copy protection on newer Mac games?........joe

[Drakino]

Commenting as a long time PC gamer, copy protection in general irritates me. I buy all my games, and the first thing I do is make a CD Image file of the CD needed to run the game. I then install, and play the game using a virtual CD program on the PC side.

Why? Well I have a few reasons. I have quite a few games, so swapping between them all the time gets rather annoyning. I also dislike needing to take my collection worth a ton of money to LAN gaming events. After loosing a few games already, I know it is only a matter of time before someone decided to try and swipe the cd wallet.

I know it's a constant battle between the game publishers and the pirates out there, but honestly, name a game that hasn't been pirated. I can think of only a few, those being MMORPGs that require a subscription fee and login, and not a CD, or to a lesser extent, Tribes 2, due to its use of a login system similar to MMORPGs to play.

One last downside to requiring the CD to run. It has at times prevented honest buyers of the game to be able to play. Why? Well most CD protection exploits CD-Rom error reading methods. Problem is, not every CD-Rom is identical, thus the protection dosen't work on 100% of the drives out there. Thus, these people call tech support, raising the costs of supporting the game and probably negating the minimal cost savings by thwarting someone not determained enough to copy the game.

Simple fact is, piracy will happen period. Just decide as a game publisher how much hell you want to put your legitimate customers through, because thats all the copy protection does.

I'm still trying to decide what to do on my new Powerbook. The Cube was never really a gaming machine, but the Powerbook can definitly churn out some decent framerates for mobile gaming. New problem though, I don't want to cart around all my hybrid games I own now with the laptop just to play.

To put these comments into perspective, I do actually work for a small company called Perilith on the side. We do tech documentation for the Unreal engine among other things. So, I am not just some random person saying these things, I have a paycheck based off how well games sell.

[reader50]

Here is a possible solution. Have the game on the CD as a drag-n-drop install. This would require the CD check until some later patch removes the check after a year or whenever. Also on the disk is an installer utility that asks for a serial number and verifies/registers against the game publisher's server. Successful verification allows the installer to install the game without CD check, but ties the binary to the specific machine ala CVGS.

Quick install and play? Drag or launch the game and leave the CD in. Spend a little more time during install (assuming you have internet access) and do a no-CD-check install. If the publishing company goes away, you will always have the option to install the game with the CD check.

Want to pirate the game? Copying the no-CD binary won't sell many pirated copies because they won't work. Copying the no-CD installer and serial number might work, but will alert the publisher to every installation attempt. And after the publisher turns off that serial number, it stops working altogether. Copying the entire CD amounts to the same thing. The only option would be to copy the CD-check binary. Whenever someone asks for help getting around the CD check on that game, suggest the no-CD installer. If the poster can't/won't seem to use that option, drop the publisher an email suggesting further investigation.

[l008com]

I just skimmed this thread, as I was actually looking for a NO CD patch myself, not for an ethics lesson. However, I argue that NO CD patches are NOT illegal because requiring a CD be in the computer to play a game is NOT a form of copy protection. It has no effect on copying the game at all. Make a duplicate is the exact why you bypass this annoyance. They can call its copy protection but that doesn't mean it is. The only way it lowers piracy is simply by annoying users, but it annoying legitimate users just as much.

[joe]

1008.com: I agree that the CD-in check is an utterly ineffective form of copy protection that only serves to annoy and harras legit users. So in order to show my support for developers that ditch that crap I just bought UT2003. I didn't care for the demo previously and hadn't planned on buying the game. But the combination of major performance optimisations and the removal of the CD-in check made this game a must have for me! If more developers would follow Ryan Gordan's lead I'd expand my game collection big time!......joe