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Horsepoo!!! · Mar 30, 2004, 09:40 AM

http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/s...ArticleID=9353

Apple has added 5.1 support in OpenAL for OS X.

Is Apple getting more serious about games on OS X? Looks like it. Is Apple going to introduce a 5.1 speaker setup for the new PowerMac and iMac lineups (long rumored to be coming)?

i am yujin · Mar 30, 2004, 10:13 AM

ummm maybe for Garageband.

Horsepoo!!! · Mar 30, 2004, 10:41 AM

Nah...OpenAL is really mostly a game dev API. IMG though is calling it a 3D API...I think they're on crack.

gotterdamm · Mar 30, 2004, 10:43 AM

ummm maybe for Garageband.

No, OpenAL is a cross-platform 3D sound API. It would provide very little use to Garageband.

This was done by Apple so that they could have a standardized gaming platform like DirectX. The OpenGL/OpenAL combo built into MacOS will make easy for companies to port games to the Mac.

voodoo · Mar 30, 2004, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by gotterdamm:
No, OpenAL is a cross-platform 3D sound API. It would provide very little use to Garageband.

This was done by Apple so that they could have a standardized gaming platform like DirectX. The OpenGL/OpenAL combo built into MacOS will make easy for companies to port games to the Mac.

for that!

Now all we need is (compatible, Mac OS X) soundcards right?

a2daj · Mar 30, 2004, 11:34 AM

From what I've heard you'll also need an update to CoreAudio (rumored to be in an upcoming QT update) to get the 3D Mixer required for true multichannel capabilities. So those of us with Revo 7.1 cards will finally be able to take full advantage of the extra speakers outside of the ADP (VLC is too buggy).

Brad Oliver · Mar 30, 2004, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Nah...OpenAL is really mostly a game dev API. IMG though is calling it a 3D API...I think they're on crack.

One of the main thrusts of OpenAL is to provide 3D positional audio.

Big Mac · Mar 31, 2004, 05:24 AM

Was GameSprockets so inextricably tied to OS 9 that nothing could be salvaged and brought over to OS X? At least Apple's making progress again on that front.

voodoo · Mar 31, 2004, 05:48 AM

I've never heard of a game that uses OpenAL. Do you guys/gals know of any?

Horsepoo!!! · Mar 31, 2004, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
I've never heard of a game that uses OpenAL. Do you guys/gals know of any?

UT2k3 and 2k4.

Judge_Fire · Mar 31, 2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
I've never heard of a game that uses OpenAL. Do you guys/gals know of any?

List at http://www.openal.org/about.html

J

proton · Mar 31, 2004, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Is Apple going to introduce a 5.1 speaker setup for the new PowerMac and iMac lineups (long rumored to be coming)?

Uhm, the PowerMac G5 already supports 5.1 speaker setups just fine. That's what the optical out port does.

- proton

a2daj · Mar 31, 2004, 01:45 PM

That's the tricky part with the G5s and 5.1. DVDs are no problem but that's because the audio is already encoded. Right now there's no "on the fly" encoder that will allow a game to pass true 5.1 sound through the optical outs. The current stat of OS X, CoreAudio, and OpenAL is geared more for users with analog 5.1 speakers. Fortunately, my setup can handle both digital and analog so when games start taking advantage of multichannel audio in OS X, I'll be ready.

Fothb · Mar 31, 2004, 03:58 PM

For games to really take off on the Mac platform, the development teams will either have to start using OpenGL a lot more than they do now, or Microsoft will have to somehow allow Apple to use some kind of compatibility layer to use the successor to DirectX. That actually might work. Microsoft is moving in the direction of having Xbox developers and Windows developers code to the same basic framework. Seeing as the Xbox2 will run on PowerPC type architecture, it might be possible for Macs to play along also. We can only hope...

a2daj · Mar 31, 2004, 05:05 PM

Use OpenGL a lot more than they use now? Eh? That's all that's available for 3D in OS X. How can they use it more? Or are you talking about using more of the features?

Whatever MS uses in place of DirectX will just mean that porting houses will have to modify their existing porting libs to handle the new API. It shouldn't be any different than it is now except that since XBox and PC developers would use the same API, then porting XBox code to the Mac would theoretically be closer to porting PC code than the current situation, which might be a good thing.

Fothb · Mar 31, 2004, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by a2daj:
Use OpenGL a lot more than they use now? Eh? That's all that's available for 3D in OS X. How can they use it more? Or are you talking about using more of the features?

No - I don't mean Mac game developers (because you're right, they already do use it). I mean ALL game developers. Despite my wishes, it seems like the majority of the development houses out there are all putting together their games in DirectX. That means that we have two choices: a) get them to switch to OpenGL or b) get support for DirectX.

Games like Far Cry, Knights of the Old Republic, Splinter Cell, etc. would all be great to have on the Mac.

Originally posted by a2daj:
Whatever MS uses in place of DirectX will just mean that porting houses will have to modify their existing porting libs to handle the new API. It shouldn't be any different than it is now except that since XBox and PC developers would use the same API, then porting XBox code to the Mac would theoretically be closer to porting PC code than the current situation, which might be a good thing.

Yep, Mac versions of certain titles could be released a lot sooner or perhaps even simultaneously. It sounds far too good to be true, but it _could_ happen if Microsoft and Apple decided to team up for some reason and really throw some effort behind making the Mac just as viable of a gaming platform as Windows.

Brad Oliver · Mar 31, 2004, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Fothb:
Games like Far Cry, Knights of the Old Republic, Splinter Cell, etc. would all be great to have on the Mac.

The first two already have OpenGL renderers.

Yep, Mac versions of certain titles could be released a lot sooner or perhaps even simultaneously.

Most Mac ports are already done with a DirectX->OpenGL compatibility layer. There are many other components to porting a game that are time-consuming and would not be solved by compatibility libraries alone.

Fothb · Mar 31, 2004, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
The first two already have OpenGL renderers.

Woohoo! This is good news.

Most Mac ports are already done with a DirectX->OpenGL compatibility layer. There are many other components to porting a game that are time-consuming and would not be solved by compatibility libraries alone.

Do you think that Microsoft's new direction that they are taking DirectX in (standardizing across Windows and Xbox) and the Xbox2 being based on PowerPC architecture will help to simplify these other components at all or am I just being entirely too optimistic?

voodoo · Mar 31, 2004, 06:48 PM

You are being optimistic.

Microsith will not will not give away the DirectX sources.

Brad Oliver · Mar 31, 2004, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Fothb:
Do you think that Microsoft's new direction that they are taking DirectX in (standardizing across Windows and Xbox) and the Xbox2 being based on PowerPC architecture will help to simplify these other components at all

I'd be surprised if it did. Microsoft is unlikely to do the Mac market any favors, and if they did, it would most likely require heavy licensing fees.

Squozen · Apr 1, 2004, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by proton:
Uhm, the PowerMac G5 already supports 5.1 speaker setups just fine. That's what the optical out port does.

- proton

Not the same thing. The optical output just pipes through whatever is fed to it. Just because you can get a DVD to play in 5.1 channels doesn't mean the computer can actually steer sounds around in real time, which is what OpenAL will allow it to do.

edit: bah, somebody else posted this already, and I can't delete this message. I feel foolish.

FurionStormrage · Apr 1, 2004, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
You are being optimistic.

Microsith will not will not give away the DirectX sources.

Microsoft would be unlikely to give away the source to DirectX. However, with Microsoft throwing a lot of weight behind Managed DirectX I could see someone creating a game in Managed DirectX and using it under Mono. IIRC, Microsoft is quasi-supporting the port of .NET to the Mac because of its friendly (to Microsoft) BSD license as opposed to the viral (to Microsoft) GPL.

I know the former manager of the Managed DirectX team and am trying to get some more details in this regard.

a2daj · 02:38 AM

Hmmm... I think I just got 5.1 channel surround working in UT2K3.

The last time I dropped in the Apple OpenAL lib into UT2K3 the M-Audio app only showed stereo left and right.

Then, while reading an OpenAL dev list message about configuring the Audio MIDI Setup app I decided to give it another try.

Here's what I did:

1. Configured the MIDI Setup app for my analog speakers (my audio card and speaker setup supports digital and analog output)

2. Opened up Unreal Tournament 2003.app/System and moved the official UT2K3 openal.dylib to a safe spot.

3. Dropped Apple's OpenAL lib in and started up the app. When the NVIDIA logo popped up I hit option+enter to switch to windowed mode.

4. Started up the M-Audio Revolution 7.1 app and switched to the Output Mixer tab.

While in the main menu I noticed that when I'd click on options the center channel would play a sound. A look at M-Audio's config app confirmed sound was coming out of that channel. I started up an instant action game and turned on God mode. Once people started shooting I looked at the channel display and noticed all channels sounding independantly!! Yay! I'm going to mess around with UT2K3 and UT2K4 demo for a bit to confirm whether or not it's working properly. Sweet!

(15 minutes later)

I played a little bit of UT2K4 demo with the new library and it works but some sound effects are louder than others. Music and the announcers are loud. Sound effects can usually only be heard when you're within a few 'feet' of the source. So you can't hear a vehicle coming up behind you until it either runs you over or whizes buy you. And you don't hear much of the fire fights that you can see.

Time to see what happens with Return of the King. It has an instance of OpenAL.Framework in the game folder.

edit: No audio outside of the bink movies.

a2daj · Apr 12, 2004, 02:49 AM

Quick note about UT2Kn and OpenAL. As some of you may have experienced, when using Apple's OpenAL lib with UT2K3 and 4, the sound effects are hard to hear until you're right next to the source. I've done a really, really ugly hack to OpenAL to try and get UT2Kn's 3D sound working properly based on some information I read in the OpenAL mailing list. This is a temporary OpenAL patch and should only be used by those with Revolution 7.1 cards and analog speakers (the only folks who can get true multichannel sound anyway). I've only tested it briefly with UT2K4 retail. It's not even close to perfect by good enough to see what the hubbub is about.

If you do use it, I cannot guarantee everything will work well. Use at your own risk. I take no responsibility if your dog gets kicked because you used this hack:

Ugly OpenAL hack for UT2Kn

Once a real solution is provided by the OpenAL guys or Ryan, please dump this hack.

a2daj · Apr 22, 2004, 01:04 AM

There's a new version of OpenAL out now that apparently fixes the distance attenuation problem in the previous builds which affected games like UT2K3, 4, and America's Army. It may or may not work with Return of the King. I haven't been able to test it but you can grab it and try it out from my iDisk fileshare.

http://homepage.mac.com/a2daj/FileSharing.html

It's dated 20040421.

Here's a direct link

You can also grab the official installer from here but I believe it only installs the OpenAL framework and doesn't linclude the openal.dylib.

Thinine · Apr 22, 2004, 02:25 AM

Can someone tell me why OpenAL in UT2k4 (for example) can't use the optical audio out on the G5?

Horsepoo!!! · Apr 22, 2004, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by a2daj:
There's a new version of OpenAL out now that apparently fixes the distance attenuation problem in the previous builds which affected games like UT2K3, 4, and America's Army. It may or may not work with Return of the King. I haven't been able to test it but you can grab it and try it out from my iDisk fileshare.

http://homepage.mac.com/a2daj/FileSharing.html

It's dated 20040421.

Here's a direct link

You can also grab the official installer from here but I believe it only installs the OpenAL framework and doesn't linclude the openal.dylib.

How does it compare to Ryan Gordon's implementation of OpenAL in terms of CPU usage and sound quality (now that it properly reflects distances)?

a2daj · Apr 22, 2004, 10:28 AM

I haven't done any direct performance comparisons recently but all Apple's OpenAL is is a thin layer over CoreAudio, the same as Ryan's. If you take into consideration that Ryan did some stuff that was purposely out of spec with OpenAL for optimization reasons, then Ryan's might be a little faster. A dual proc system probably won't show any differences. I'll have to run some tests if I can find some time.

a2daj · Apr 22, 2004, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by Thinine:
Can someone tell me why OpenAL in UT2k4 (for example) can't use the optical audio out on the G5?

It can use it, but not for 5.1. It's because there's no built in encoder (think Dolby Digital encoding or something similar...) The audio must be encoded in a certain format so that your receive can decode it properly to the various channels.