[goMac]

Aspyr has done it again!

http://www.aspyr.com/games.php/mac/kotor/

[macintologist]

I'm so damn excited but I won't be buying it because I don't play games anymore. But now I have more ammo for potential switchers who are concerned about Mac gaming. They always ask if theres KOTOR and I have to gulp and say no and then say how Halo, UT2k4 are great games on the Mac.

[a2daj]

If there's no PC<->Mac network compatibility they should stop wasting time porting it!!

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by a2daj:
If there's no PC<->Mac network compatibility they should stop wasting time porting it!!

There's definitely no Mac<->PC network compatibility.

[itai195]

Originally posted by a2daj:
If there's no PC<->Mac network compatibility they should stop wasting time porting it!!

Great game, hopefully it will be less buggy than the XBOX and PC versions.

[exca1ibur]

So is it safe to guess that Brad 'The Jedi' Oliver is doing the port? If so I expect nothing less than a solid port.

[gbafan]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
There's definitely no Mac<->PC network compatibility.

OMG No! What is an RPG without Mac <-> PC networking?!?!

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by exca1ibur:
So is it safe to guess that Brad 'The Jedi' Oliver is doing the port? If so I expect nothing less than a solid port.

Yeah, no pressure...

[Komisar]

I dont know about this i have it for xbox and it is quite a demanding game as is, the levels and the graphics are very demanding.... i am looking forweard to seeing how a computer can handle it..... BUT ITS GOING TO BE GREAT!

[itai195]

It never struck me as particularly demanding, it struck me more as a rush job on the xbox, especially because some of the bugs were obvious and egregious gameplay problems. Maybe those can be ironed out. Then again, I am a programmer but not a game developer, so what do I know

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by itai195:
It never struck me as particularly demanding, it struck me more as a rush job on the xbox, especially because some of the bugs were obvious and egregious gameplay problems. Maybe those can be ironed out.

Can you be more specific? There have been some patches for the PC version (which is what we're based off).

Then again, I am a programmer but not a game developer, so what do I know

The game is demanding for two reasons that I can see so far. First is that it's graphically pretty intensive - lots of polys, and a lot of frame-buffer effects (like glowing lights). Second is the scripting/event system. If you look at, for example, the city on the first planet, all of the scripts for the NPCs are constantly running and doing their thing while you're sitting there watching the scenery. It adds up fairly quickly, but makes for a very immersive experience.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Can you be more specific? There have been some patches for the PC version (which is what we're based off).

I'm not as familiar with the PC version, but the Xbox version had some bugs where quests could not be completed sometimes. For example, I remember I could not complete Mission's sidequest on Tatooine and read that this was a known issue. I've heard that others had difficulties with Carth's subquest on Korriban. Don't want to spoil anything for those who haven't played it by saying too much. I'd imagine those bugs were probably fixed on the PC version eventually so you probably won't have to deal with them, but I've only played the XBox version. Having tested RPGs years ago, these seemed like they were probably minor bugs from a programming standpoint, but they should have been caught and fixed because they are quite obvious to a gamer.

[KeyLimePi]

Excuse my naivity, but what exactly is a Role Playing Game? Is it significantly different than an FPS?

[Holigen]

Yes, whereas an FPS has you walking around toting around a gun, an RPG gives you a lot of freedom usually. Some examples of RPGs are Final Fantasy series, Neverwinter Nights, Dungeons and Dragons, and even Pokemon. Hopefully that helped... I didnt explain it too well though

[KeyLimePi]

No, that was helpful. Thanks. Good examples. I guess to me games like Halo and MoH are FPS games, but I probably should think of them more as RPGs.

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
I guess to me games like Halo and MoH are FPS games, but I probably should think of them more as RPGs.

Even then, there's a pretty big difference between something like Halo and an RPG like KOTOR. KOTOR is very story-driven and has a very open-ended style of play compared to a FPS. There's also a lot more problem-solving. If you enjoy the single-player aspect of something like Medal of Honor or Halo a lot more than the multiplayer, then I would suspect an RPG may appeal to you.

[a2daj]

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
No, that was helpful. Thanks. Good examples. I guess to me games like Halo and MoH are FPS games, but I probably should think of them more as RPGs.

Halo and MoH are FPS games, not RPGs.

[KeyLimePi]

Originally posted by a2daj:
Halo and MoH are FPS games, not RPGs.

Oooh-k. What about something like Tomb Raider? FPS or RPG?

[phillryu]

I think that's considered one of the more hybrid games.. third person shooter / platformer / adventurer, etc.

An example of that kind would be Zelda, OOT.

RPG's are focused more on developing a character. Examples include Diablo II, Baldur's Gate, Pokemon, etc. You usually guide one character or party throughout the whole game, becoming stronger and progressing through a story line. RPG stands for Role Playing Game, FPS stands for First Person Shooter.

[itai195]

Some people would consider Zelda an RPG, though I'd disagree.

Halo and MoH are more like hybrids of adventure and FPS games. They're considered FPS, though... probably because the FPS genre is mostly made up of those kinds of games, ever since Halflife and Goldeneye.

[G Barnett]

Quick question on the networking issue -- any particular reason no mac-pc networking on this one? As I understand it, KOTOR uses a modified version of the NWN Aurora engine, and while the graphics, interface and some of the other innards are understandably somewhat different, why would the networking not work? Hmmm, thinking of KOTOR, is there even PC-PC networking in it at all?

G Barnett

[Caesar2099]

Originally posted by itai195:
Halo and MoH are more like hybrids of adventure and FPS games. They're considered FPS, though... probably because the FPS genre is mostly made up of those kinds of games, ever since Halflife and Goldeneye.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there. The "Adventure" genre is basically like the "other" category. When you think about it all games have adventure elements, MoH and Halo are FPS through and through.
Adventure should really be called "Platformer" a name reminiscent of the original Mario-type games.

[a2daj]

Originally posted by itai195:
Halo and MoH are more like hybrids of adventure and FPS games. They're considered FPS, though... probably because the FPS genre is mostly made up of those kinds of games, ever since Halflife and Goldeneye.

I'd argue that they're just plain FPS games, First Person Shooters. It's a first person view and you shoot things. Shooting things is typically the main focus. All of the Unreal games are just play FPS games as well. Quake games too. Half-Life, also a FPS as is Goldeneye, Call of Duty, BF1942, etc.

Adventure games tend to be third person games with a slant more toward exploring than shooting. Tomb Raider games would fall under this category. One notable first person game that would fit as an adventure game is Metroid Prime as exploration is a huge part of the game. Some might consider it an action adventure game.

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by G Barnett:
Hmmm, thinking of KOTOR, is there even PC-PC networking in it at all?

Nope.

[G Barnett]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Nope.

Aha! Marvelous. Can't port something that ain't there. Carry on, then.



G Barnett

[voodoo]

Coooooooooooooooooooool!!

[itai195]

Originally posted by Caesar2099:
Sorry but I have to disagree with you there. The "Adventure" genre is basically like the "other" category. When you think about it all games have adventure elements, MoH and Halo are FPS through and through.
Adventure should really be called "Platformer" a name reminiscent of the original Mario-type games.

The Adventure and Platformer genres are really quite distinct -- Mario-type games are platform games. I say adventure because, for lack of a better term, games like Halflife are different from previous FPS games like Doom, where there were pretty much no adventure elements. There's actually a story and some exploration. I'd still call Halo and MoH first person shooters.

[Caesar2099]

Originally posted by itai195:
The Adventure and Platformer genres are really quite distinct -- Mario-type games are platform games. I say adventure because, for lack of a better term, games like Halflife are different from previous FPS games like Doom, where there were pretty much no adventure elements. There's actually a story and some exploration. I'd still call Halo and MoH first person shooters.

I see what you're saying, Half Life has a good story and adventure elements, whereas Doom is just shooting monsters at random. I misunderstood you.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Caesar2099:
I see what you're saying, Half Life has a good story and adventure elements, whereas Doom is just shooting monsters at random. I misunderstood you.

That's alright, I didn't get it across very well. Categorizing games into genres is quite arbitrary anyway.

[ginoledesma]

Coolness! Yet another Bioware game that's been ported to the Mac, and I just love their games. I've been wishing they'd release this for the Mac. A little late, but better than never.

[Rev-O]

Wahoo! Kotor is s'posed to start shipping on September 14th! Yippee!

[bookofjames]

i loved KOTOR, but once I completed the Single Player Campaigns there seems to be nowhere else to go.

would love it more if it were as extensible in the online realm as NWN.

[cruciarius]

my friend has kotor for xbox and i watched him play it. other than being able to be light or dark side, i saw nothing great about the game. not sure if the xbox version has any online ability, because he never went online with it, but it seemed to be a very short game. other than good graphics, the game kinda sucked.

why port it to the mac now? kotor 2 was announced and they had a bunch of screen shots of it up, last i knew.

[a2daj]

Why port it to the Mac? Because it's a great game. And why port the second one without ever porting the first one when the second one will use the same engine only slightly modified. KotOR easily deserves all the awards it won. Excellent game. Go and get it when it comes out. I would recommend not using any FAQs the first time you play it through.

[arekkusu]

Congrats, Brad. Time for a well deserved break, followed by intense MacMAME updating

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by arekkusu:
Congrats, Brad. Time for a well deserved break, followed by intense MacMAME updating

No rest for the wicked! A MacMAME update will beat KOTOR to the store shelves - I can promise that now.

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by cruciarius:
not sure if the xbox version has any online ability, because he never went online with it, but it seemed to be a very short game.

If KOTOR is considered a short game at 40-60 hours, what's considered long nowadays?

why port it to the mac now? kotor 2 was announced and they had a bunch of screen shots of it up, last i knew.

KOTOR 2 hadn't been released and isn't scheduled to ship until spring 2005 at the earliest. I don't see how that precludes doing a Mac port of KOTOR. Besides, if KOTOR 1 is as short as you think, you've got all kinds of time to finish it over the next 6-8 months even if you did want to play it.

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
If KOTOR is considered a short game at 40-60 hours, what's considered long nowadays?

I look forward to wasting many hours on Kotor. The timing is perfect! I've milked NWN for all I can stand, and was facing the prospect of doing something productive with my spare time!

[cruciarius]

40-60 hours? my friend won it twice in one day. yeah, kotor is a good game, but its too short and it is pretty much a go with the story game. you can't break off from it too much, from what i saw. hopefully with porting it to the mac, they fix the bugs and make it longer some how.

[a2daj]

Originally posted by cruciarius:
40-60 hours? my friend won it twice in one day. yeah, kotor is a good game, but its too short and it is pretty much a go with the story game. you can't break off from it too much, from what i saw. hopefully with porting it to the mac, they fix the bugs and make it longer some how.

Your friend must not have had anything to do and skipped all of the side quests. KotOR is NOT that short. But since you've only watched the game being played, then we'll just have to take that into consideration when reading about your thoughts of the game.

And it's highly unlikely Aspyr has the resources (skills, time, and money among other things) to add new assets and extend the story line to the game.

[tomppu]

I was quite dissapointed playing KoTOR on Xbox after many sessions of Fallout 2. The game is very story oriented indeed, there's really not that much of doing in the world. I did all the sidequests I could find and the game was not very long, somewhat entertaining though. The "oh so surprising twist" at the near and of the game was pretty lame to me.
You can be good or bad and thats all good , but being bad is so damn hard. You really have to make all your moves thinking if you want to be better at dark side instead of light. Playing it as you would play, lets say Fallout (doing good and some bad things for your own benefit), you would have neutral character at the end of this game. You need to push all your deeds to one side if you like to be anything at all. I've only played Extremely Good™ character so far, I lose interest in playing as BadDude when realised this.
Most characters are copies from original SW saga, which seems to plague most StarWars licensed stuff. Graphics, I'd say, are pretty good but nothing amazing. I'd rather have large areas instead of eyecandy. There were lots of pointless running even with such small locations.
Oh, and please do something to the last "world" (don't want to spoil too much), it's hyper-annoying with all those dark side jedis running around like there's no tomorrow. Me no like.

By the way, I'm like very much of the original three movies, so you can maybe count me as some sort of SW fan. You wouldn't think that after all this, would you?

tomppu

[DekuDekuplex]

Originally posted by Holigen:
Yes, whereas an FPS has you walking around toting around a gun, an RPG gives you a lot of freedom usually. Some examples of RPGs are Final Fantasy series, Neverwinter Nights, Dungeons and Dragons, and even Pokemon. Hopefully that helped... I didnt explain it too well though

Don't forget to mention Final Fantasy® XI, by Square Enix™, Inc.

Although not available for the Mac, among all the titles I have played, this one has seemed to be perhaps the most immersive MMORPG (Massively Multi-player Online Role-Playing Game).

I liked it so much that I even wrote an article campaigning to get it ported to the Macintosh. I'm still driving to get it ported.

That said, RPG's can further be dichotomized into story-driven and game-driven classes. Online RPG's tend to be more game-driven, although FFXI tends to have a strong story component. Single-player RPG's can be either story- or game-driven.

In a story-driven RPG, gameplay tends to focus on the story; in a game-driven RPG, the story tends either not to exist, or to focus on the gameplay. Examples of story-driven RPG's include the aforementioned Final Fantasy® series and, to a certain extent, Neverwinter Nights™, by BioWare™; examples of game-driven RPG's include Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, by TSR, and the Dragon Quest Super Famicom- and PlayStation-based series in Japan (known in the U.S. as Dragon Warrior), by Enix™ (since merged into Square Enix™, Inc.).

There is a lot of discussion about the difference between an adventure game with RPG elements, and an RPG with adventure game elements. Some people consider, for example, Diablo®, by Blizzard® Entertainment, to be an RPG, but I consider it an more of an adventure game with RPG elements. Traditionally, while the main focus of RPG's has usually been character development (hence the genre title: "role-playing game"), many RPG's have also included the following elements:

• an overarching story
• battles resulting in gained experience/abilities and/or treasure
• quests by which to gain experience/abilities/treasure
• towns in which to recuperate and gain information through dialogs with NPC's (Non-Player Characters, or characters not controlled by the player)
• dungeons or towers in which to fight battles and gain treasure
• progressively more challenging enemy NPC's, often varying by location/terrain
• puzzles that need to be solved to move forward, often of a logical nature
• in the case of Japanese RPG's in particular, an overarching theme of self-discovery (i.e., of the main character trying to discover his/her identity by journeying through the main quest and interacting with/witnessing the actions of other characters); incidentally, this is also a theme in Star Wars®-based RPG's

FPS's (as a2daj pointed out, the acronym stands for "First-Person Shooter"), by contrast, have traditionally emphasized the shooting side of the game from a first-person perspective (hence the phrase "first-person"). A good example is DOOM™, by id® Software. Lately, however, some FPS's, such as Star Wars® Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy™, by LucasArts®, have also emphasized story and character-building elements.

Adventure games, by contrast, tend to focus on exploration, often with much action, but traditionally not from a first-person perspective. Many users, including myself, cite Diablo® as a good example of an adventure game.

-- DekuDekuplex

[cruciarius]

actually, i would say diablo is more of an RPG then an adventure game. you gain levels, items (which spawn randomly), do quests and can beat dungeons any way you want. also, the dungeons are made randomly.

zelda is a better example of an adventure/action game. no real character development, other than items and hearts. all of which is always the same each time you play.

[voodoo]

RPG Games are always becoming shorter and shorter. Especially as the engine becomes more established.

Baldur's Gate was a long game. The world was made so large and amazing. That was the first and last RPG on a computer that caught me. Great plot too and as true to the 2nd ed. AD&D rules as one could expect.

Walking between screens exploring the Sword Coast was like a dream..

BG2 ruined all that. That game is short. Really. It is so short that the game throws you up a level (sometimes a few hundred thousand XPs) at its whim because the fight becomes impossible at lower levels, i.e. if you'd progress NORMALLY in BG2 you wouldn't have a chance. That in combination with the 'spotlight' locations - that there isn't any physical connection between screen A and B is just annoying. Yes I know it sucks for a developer to cover every house in Athkatla but that is what I expect from a BG experience after BG1 where you could explore Baldur's Gate pretty much entirely.

Icewind Dale took the 'spotlight' idea to new levels - not necessarily bad ones because it didn't pretend to be all encompassing - but still. This kind of teleporting between places undermines the feeling of the game. Darn shame that..

NWN is unfortunately further diluting the whole concept. Teleporting between screens is naturally there like in BG2 and ID, but now you can forget touches like day and night. It's either or. The experience point system is so incredibly whacked that I sure can't figure it out. Seemingly there is some connection between your level and the level of the monster you are slaying. Maybe this is 3rd ed. rules - I haven't played the pen and paper 3rd ed so I don't really know. I just liked the way it was handled in BG1. Just like when I was playing as a kid.

Now don't get me wrong here, the only game I didn't enjoy of the above is BG2. A game that sucked beyond belief. The rest were a lot of fun and NWN is great too. God is in the details though and I would sure want to see more details in future RPGs from Bioware.

Shame they're abandoning the Forgotten Realms universe. That I will miss.

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by voodoo:
RPG Games are always becoming shorter and shorter. Especially as the engine becomes more established.
<snip>

Agreed. Morrowind (not Mac available ) was a nice, protracted RPG. For tho of us with a completionist bent, it could be played forever. And better yet, when you finished the main quest, you could go out adventuring more. Completely open ended. Nwn is good, but is a poor substitute. Small maps, linear storyline, closed play. Ah well, it is good enough to burn many hours. Imagine Kotor will about be the same. Don't get me wrong, I look forward to Kotor, but have no illusions about it.

I think what has killed the lengthy RPG (besides developers wanting to make a quick buck) is the emphasis on online play. A nice adventure is thrown together, then the game player is supposed to 'further' the adventure online. Yech.

[webb3201]

Originally posted by a2daj:
Your friend must not have had anything to do and skipped all of the side quests. KotOR is NOT that short. But since you've only watched the game being played, then we'll just have to take that into consideration when reading about your thoughts of the game.

And it's highly unlikely Aspyr has the resources (skills, time, and money among other things) to add new assets and extend the story line to the game.

yes, no way will you complete this in one day if you play any of the side quests (which is the fun). I rushed a bit the first time playing a light sider and thought the game was fun. I replayed as a Dark Jedi and took on every side quest. The game was so much better that way. Take your time and enjoy.

[NemesisEG]

I'm really looking forward to finally playing KOTOR on the Mac; I was VERY pleased when Aspyr got the deal.

Brad, what's it running like on the Powerbook 1.33s or new desktop G5s?

[phillryu]

Brad, will it run fine on a Powerbook 12" with 512MB RAM?

[a2daj]

Originally posted by phillryu:
Brad, will it run fine on a Powerbook 12" with 512MB RAM?

There's more than one model of the 12" PowerBook. More specs would probably help.

It should run fine on any G5 I would guess. On a Radeon 9600 or beter it should fly. Not sure about the FX 5200 card though. Bioware has an Official "Will Kotor Run on my machine?" thread. If the game doesn't run that great with that card according to the PC folks, then the Mac side might not fair any better. But since it's an RPG, it should run good enough...

One thing that will probably hurt is the number of polygons being pushed. I've seen the PC version and it has a fairly high poly count with no way to turn it down. So folks at the minimum or below the sys reqs, may struggle.

Brad mentioned in another forum that some of the vertex programs are longer than some chipsets can handle (the Radeon R200 class chipsets, 8500, 9000, 9200). So those chipsets will struggle in areas where it has to switch to software vertex programs. If you have a G3, it would probably really crawl, as the OpenGL software vertex programs rely heavily on Altivec.

[phillryu]

So what do you think about a Geforce5200 Powerbook 12" 1.33ghz? Obviously it is above the 1ghz G3/G4 min. requirements, and I have the 512MB recommended RAM. The vcard min. req. at Aspyr just say 32MB and GeForce2 or better, which I should think the Geforce5200 satisfies, but from what I've heard, this is a pretty crappy card...