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You are here: MacNN Forums > Enthusiast Zone > Gaming > PS3, Wii or XB360

View Poll Results: Which ones would it have to be ?
Poll Options:
Sony PlayStation 3 202 votes (31.91%)
Nintendo Wii 328 votes (51.82%)
Microsoft XBox 360 213 votes (33.65%)
None 34 votes (5.37%)
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 633. You may not vote on this poll
PS3, Wii or XB360 (Page 178)
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Posting Junkie
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Oct 13, 2010, 11:10 AM
 
No surprise.

This is getting freaking ridiculous.
     
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Oct 13, 2010, 11:57 AM
 
GT5 will end up being a launch title for the PlayStation 4. Until it's delayed again.

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
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Oct 13, 2010, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Update: SCEA tells Kotaku that the delay is indeed global adding that they can't elaborate on whether "holiday season" could mean early 2011.
No comment usually means yes.

SpaceMonkey is probably right.
     
Posting Junkie
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Oct 13, 2010, 12:42 PM
 
Wtf?
     
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Oct 13, 2010, 12:43 PM
 
The ironic bit is that DNF will likely be released first.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 10:29 AM
 
Signs Point To NBA Jam On Disc [Updated]
I'll be honest. I think this could have been a legit $20 arcade game. After all, they did make it from scratch, and NBA Live/Elite/Sports games aere notoriously overpriced, so it being a throw-in on a $60 game that's worth probably half that works.

That said, this is ridiculous. Even if they include the previously set to be DLC Remix Mode on said disc, it's hard to imagine the entire thing being worth more than $30 total. And if they're putting it on a disc, I think it's crazy to expect it to cost less $40 total. But, when I think ODST (originally set to be less-than-retail) I know there's no way this comes out for less than $60. (After all, the Wii version is $50 and that isn't HD. With the loss of exclusivity of the title and all modes, that's a fantastic rip-off).

So yeah. I'm probably repeating myself, but this is one of those situations where it seems like one illogical decision after another.


Gran Turismo Creator Explains Delay
Apologies for the delay," Yamauchi tweeted. "It's because time and labor were spent ironing the kinks out of [the game's] complex system. I'm really sorry. Everyone, it's inexcusable... Wait a little longer."
I think that means they're killing bugs and glitches.


Crazy Taxi picking up fares Nov. 23 on PSN, Nov. 24 on XBLA | Joystiq
Yet another Arcade game I'm pumped about. I played the shit out of 2 on the PS2.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I think that means they're killing bugs and glitches.
I think so too. NBA Elite vs Delay and get it right... I'll take the ladder. Not like there isn't something else to do till then. Rushing to make a date shouldn't be more important than getting it right. They probably wouldn't get crucified as much if they never gave a release date in the first place but, that's how it goes. LOL Gotta take a little heat to make it interesting.

PS. Crazy Taxi was classic. I think, I still have that for my Dreamcast. One of these days I'm gonna just hook that sucker back up and look for that one.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 11:57 AM
 
With GT5, a few places are saying they missed a Blu Ray production slot deadline by 3 days, and if it was only 3 days out and waiting for the next production slot, it might not slip that far.

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by exca1ibur View Post
I think so too.
It's the right thing to do. GT5 is a flagship title, and given the time its spent on development bug and glitches are even less acceptable than on any other game. The timing sucks, but you have to do it. It'll sell shit-tons regardless of release date (see: GTA IV)

Originally Posted by exca1ibur View Post
NBA Elite vs Delay and get it right... I'll take the ladder.
Tell me what you think of this solution: Give Elite an extra year in development, release Live one last time with only updated rosters for $20 ($40 if you include JAM).

Updating live's rosters can't possibly need a large team, and by releasing Live they avert losing their hard-core fans to the 2k series (Who may now never return). The biggest flaw in EA's strategy so far is how much they're devaluing their series as Jam's potential retail cost keeps going up and up.

Of course, my plan only works if you set things into motion before Elite was announced.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by ajprice View Post
With GT5, a few places are saying they missed a Blu Ray production slot deadline by 3 days, and if it was only 3 days out and waiting for the next production slot, it might not slip that far.
That's believable, too. They're not going to want this thing to be hard to find.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 12:34 PM
 
After hyping the crap out of the series relaunch, there's no way they could release NBA Live this year and not get murdered for it. I think even their hard-core fans (all three of them) would react very negatively. They might be better off just vacating the space altogether until next year.

Regardless, it's already embarrassing for them.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 12:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
After hyping the crap out of the series relaunch, there's no way they could release NBA Live this year and not get murdered for it.
Read what I wrote
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 01:00 PM
 
Whooooops. Skipped that last line. You're still a dbag for bolding the text though, which is why you get this:


The fact: the Live/Elite brand is screwed.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 01:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Whooooops. Skipped that last line. You're still a dbag for bolding the text though, which is why you get this:


The fact: the Live/Elite brand is screwed.
HEYYYY only I can torture dakar with smilies
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin Bogues View Post
HEYYYY only I can torture dakar with smilies
I thought you might need a short break.
     
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Oct 14, 2010, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Tell me what you think of this solution: Give Elite an extra year in development, release Live one last time with only updated rosters for $20 ($40 if you include JAM).

Updating live's rosters can't possibly need a large team, and by releasing Live they avert losing their hard-core fans to the 2k series (Who may now never return). The biggest flaw in EA's strategy so far is how much they're devaluing their series as Jam's potential retail cost keeps going up and up.

Of course, my plan only works if you set things into motion before Elite was announced.
Yeah that solution seems to be the only logical one I can come up with as well. They know they are going to take a huge hit this year if they get it out right now against 2K11. This year is gone, start tuning Elite up for next season. A roster update with legends, college players or something for the existing NBA Live as DLC would be the best bet. Elite 2012 is the only option right now.
     
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Oct 15, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
Friday News: Eunuch NPD Edition

September NPD: Hardware down, but Halo Reaches upward | Joystiq

Halo: Reach – Xbox 360 – Microsoft
Madden NFL 11 – 360/PS3/PS2/Wii/PSP – EA
Dead Rising 2 – 360/PS3/PC – Capcom
NHL 11 – 360/PS3 – EA
FIFA Soccer 11 – 360/PS3/PS2/PSP/NDS – EA
Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep – PSP – Square Enix
Mafia 2 – 360/PS3/PC – Take-Two
Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions – PS3/360/NDS/Wii – Activision
Metroid: Other M – Wii – Nintendo
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 – 360/PS3/PCi – Activision

Not bad when a console exclusive outsells a multiplatform's combined output. Though it is Halo.


Greenberg: Xbox 360 was top-selling console for fourth month in a row | Joystiq
Halo: Reach Sells Over 3 Million Copies
Greenberg elaborated in his following tweet that Microsoft sold 483,989 hardware units in September, "a 37% increase over last year." He also claimed the console is the only system with higher sales year-over-year.
Bungie, has sold 3.3 million copies in the US. Which means it's not even counting the PAL sales in Europe and Australasia. For a game out on only one platform, those are impressive numbers.

Gran Turismo 5 Delay Will Be "A Short One"
There have been rumors and reports that the game narrowly missed its deadline for the November 2 release. Because of that, there is chatter that the game is being held up by Blu-ray production delays. In a tweet yesterday, GT5 designer Kazunori Yamauchi wrote the game still needed some finalizing.

There are also claims that the game has been delayed due to the recent PS3 hack. It was apparently was about to go to production, but needed to be updated so it ships with the latest firmware to ensure that the game is pirate-proof.
---

Originally Posted by exca1ibur View Post
Yeah that solution seems to be the only logical one I can come up with as well. They know they are going to take a huge hit this year if they get it out right now against 2K11.
I just wonder what they're going to do next year. A stand-alone Elite is not going to be able to compete with 2k any more.
     
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Oct 15, 2010, 12:54 PM
 
Move sales around 1.5 million in Europe, 300K estimated for US | Joystiq
Speaking to Bloomberg, Sony Europe's Andrew House noted "very significant sales" for the Move, saying that it has sold "somewhere in the region of 1.5 million units for the new controller across just Europe." He added that sales have exceeded Sony's original hopes, and that the company will likely increase production of the peripheral.

Sales may not be as motivated in America, however. In a report released to the media, Wedbush Morgan's Michael Pachter estimated that the motion controller sold around 300,000 units in its US debut, including Move console bundles; though it's important to note that SCEA has not released official sales figures.
1.5 mil ain't bad, right? A game is considered a success at 1.5 mil. I know our standards are higher for hardware, but when it comes peripherals... not so much.

The US numbers (which I note are estimated) aren't quite as impressive. So there's two ways I can read the results so far: Either Europe is way harder on Sony's dick, or they are much more casual. I suspect it's the former, because I expect kinect to post awful numbers in Europe, but similar numbers in the US.
     
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Oct 15, 2010, 03:19 PM
 
Fudgy data for the curious: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=410260

Xbox 360: 483,989 Units (Up 37% Year Over Year)
PS3: 312,000 Units (Down 37% Year Over Year)
Wii: 254,000 Units (Down 45% Year Over Year)

A few observations (assuming this is true):

The PS3: It just looks worse and worse. With arguably better hardware value than comparable 360 models it still seems like it needs a price cut to compete. It seems intuitive that GT5 will move consoles... but to me it seems pretty clear its core base has already purchased.

The Wii: Speaking of core bases, it looks like it's the beginning of the end. Numbers are flat, and software doesn't seem be driving sales. Perhaps unwisely, I'm still not sold on success of the Wii's eventual successor (implied killer new feature not-withstanding). I feel like there's a lot of room for non-core Wii owners to move to other platforms when it comes time to make their next purchase. Still, at $250, the Wii has plenty of room to entice more families with price drops.

The 360: What a difference new hardware makes? It looks like the S has done a lot to erase questions of or give the illusion of hardware reliability. Considering Reach's sales are disturbingly flat compared to its predecessor (3.3 mil in Halo 3's debut month, 3.3 in Reach's) it would be hard to pinpoint new software as the driver of sales. Quite honestly, using anecdotal evidence from various sites, a strong percentage of sales are probably being derived from XBOX owners who feel the new S is a worthwhile upgrade. Still, the new perception of reliability must be having some effect for Microsoft to be the only hardware manufacturer showing year-over-year growth.
     
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Oct 15, 2010, 07:33 PM
 
I think that for many old revision 360 owners, the S is a significant enough upgrade for them to run out and purchase a new console. But for many original PS3 owners, perhaps the Slim isn't a big enough upgrade to warrant a new purchase? Especially if you had an old 120 Gb PS3. A couple of my friends bought the 360 S simply because they were sick of their 20 Gb HDDs and wanted the 250 Gb.
     
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Oct 16, 2010, 12:24 AM
 
Yeah, I'll probably pick up a Kinect bundle with the new console at some point. My launch console is getting long in the tooth.
     
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Oct 16, 2010, 01:34 AM
 
Yeah I bought a PS3 Slim last September after they came out, skipped getting the regular PS3. And replaced my old 360 with the Halo Reach 360 when it came out. The bigger, 250GB hard drive over the 20GB I had before was the main point, and the built in wireless adapter is good too. It is also noticeably quitter than my previous one too.
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Oct 16, 2010, 08:34 AM
 
I picked up a PS3 Slim late last year as well.

The last time i turned on my Wii was in January, i think, and i am not really excited about any new software on the platform. Other M, was the last straw, imho. The Wii has served me well since 2006, and i feel i got my moneys worth.

That being said, i haven't really played any games on the PS3 either, just a bit of racing in Motorstorm. I use it primarily as a media PC and blu ray player, and thus turn it on almost every day for that functionality. I have ordered God Of Collection and look forward to gaming some more. GT5 is on the horizon, Ico & Shadow of the Colossus and Last Guardian. So i think the content that i want is there. (And i havent even played Uncharted2, Killzone2, God Of War 3, Bioshock, etc).

Speaking about sales figures, i think its high time Nintendo gets with the time and releases a new console. I'm sure it will have some kickazz feature, heck just compare the 3DS to the other portable consoles. The Wii has peaked primarily being due to the lack of software. And i am convinced that Nintendo cannot make a game that appeals to a mature adult crowd to save it's life (and im not talking about gameplay here, i am talking about the story, characters, etc).

Also, i am not convinced of the XB360(all models). Their quality has been the lowest of any console i have ever heard of in recent memory. And a new SKU wont necessarily fix the QA processes at Microsoft. Of course.... i'm waiting to be proven wrong on this account.
     
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Oct 16, 2010, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
That being said, i haven't really played any games on the PS3 either, just a bit of racing in Motorstorm. I use it primarily as a media PC and blu ray player, and thus turn it on almost every day for that functionality...
Pretty much all I've been using my PS3 for recently. Friends with a 360 push me that way for multiplayer games.
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Oct 16, 2010, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
i think its high time Nintendo gets with the time and releases a new console. I'm sure it will have some kickazz feature, heck just compare the 3DS to the other portable consoles. The Wii has peaked primarily being due to the lack of software. And i am convinced that Nintendo cannot make a game that appeals to a mature adult crowd to save it's life (and im not talking about gameplay here, i am talking about the story, characters, etc).
What a difference a year and a half makes.
     
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Oct 18, 2010, 10:41 AM
 
Monday News

Happy 25th Birthday, Nintendo Entertainment System!
Interestingly, blowing out 25 candles feels a lot like blowing the dust out of the bottom of a cartridge.


Kinect's 17 Games "Launch Portfolio" is One Shy of Xbox 360 Launch Line-Up
Most titles priced $49.99. This seems reminiscent of something....


The guy with the half-million Gamerscore | Joystiq
...and too much free time.


Gamasutra - News - Analysis: Xbox 360 Blazes Ahead In 2010
The data provided by the NPD Group actually puts the Xbox 360 up by just over 10,000 units, but we consider that small enough fall within the margin of error. Let us say that both systems have sold just over 3.2 million systems so far in 2010 and call it even.

...

the picture is less clear but given Microsoft's persistent 8.9-9.0 tie ratio throughout this year, we believe that 2 to 3 million more units of Xbox 360 software have been sold so far in 2010 than for the Wii.
The Year of the PS3 (Take Two), everyone.



Also, trying to figure out why sales went up in May when the new model wasn't announced until June.

Even in the accessory segment, the Xbox Live 1600 Point Card has replaced the Wii remote as the top-selling item.
The accessory segment always seems to be full of either half-truths or miscategorizations.
     
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Oct 19, 2010, 12:56 PM
 
I've been meaning to post this for a while. Seems apropos given the recent postings.

     
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Oct 19, 2010, 01:12 PM
 
I'm going to bump it with my Halo Reach stats from last night.

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Oct 20, 2010, 10:43 AM
 
Two bits of news today, both more numbers/sales stuff. Apologies, it seems in the wake of NPD changing its format somehow this time of the month has managed to extend itself.
Anyway, to more mind-numbing analysis/opinion:

Gamasutra - News - NPD's Top Ten U.S. Retail Games See Halo, Mario Dominate
As part of September's NPD analysis, we received a chart of the top-selling games of 2010 so far in U.S. retail.


The obvious stat to notice here: In one month Halo: Reach has outsold every other game from the year. Considering this year had the Fall 2009 overflow, that indicates a bad economy to me, rather than bad games. (Does Modern Warfare 2s spot at eight contradict this? I don't think so; The most desirable game of 2009 is likely at the top of most people's lists)

Worth noting that the declining Wii still clocks in with five spots, because at the end of the day, an assload of consoles is an assload of potential customers.


Back to Halo:
As for September itself, as expected, Microsoft's Halo: Reach was the best-selling game in September 2010, with sales of 3.29 million units. This compares favorably with the launch of Halo 3: ODST a year prior, which moved 1.52 million units.

In terms of reaching out to a larger base of players, however, we would note that when Halo 3 originally launched back in September 2007 it also moved 3.3 million units, and on an installed hardware base about one third the size of the current Xbox 360 base.

If Microsoft has enlarged its base of core Halo fans, the initial sales figures for Halo: Reach don't demonstrate that. To put it in percentages, Halo: Reach was bought by 15% of the Xbox 360 installed base at launch, while Halo 3 was bought by 49%. (For completeness, ODST was bought by 9% of the installed base at its launch.)
I believe I noted that earlier in the thread. Again, the economy may get its fair share of blame, but from a personal stand-point I think this also demonstrates the shift towards Call of Duty-like shooters.

---

Speaking of Call of Duty like shooters
Gamasutra - News - EA: Medal Of Honor Sells 1.5M Worldwide In First Five Days
Battling perceptions that the latest Medal of Honor is under-performing commercially and critically, Electronic Arts said Tuesday that the game has sold 1.5 million units in its first five days of availability.
Ok, so world-wide isn't the best caveat, but it's still good enough, right? Particularly as a poorly-reviewed new entrant into the Activision dominated market.

EA responded to the launch reviews, saying, "Medal of Honor is part of a larger EA strategy to take share in the shooter category. This is a marathon not a sprint -- today's Medal of Honor launch represents a step forward in that race."
I'll call out corporate BS when I see it, but I think this is a rare moment of honesty. The sales could have been better, but all EA needed to do was not bomb, and current sales are enough to justify a sequel.

However, this just drives home how the shooter market has become like the sports-game one.
     
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Oct 20, 2010, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Back to Halo:

"In terms of reaching out to a larger base of players, however, we would note that when Halo 3 originally launched back in September 2007 it also moved 3.3 million units, and on an installed hardware base about one third the size of the current Xbox 360 base.

If Microsoft has enlarged its base of core Halo fans, the initial sales figures for Halo: Reach don't demonstrate that. To put it in percentages, Halo: Reach was bought by 15% of the Xbox 360 installed base at launch, while Halo 3 was bought by 49%. (For completeness, ODST was bought by 9% of the installed base at its launch.)"


I believe I noted that earlier in the thread. Again, the economy may get its fair share of blame, but from a personal stand-point I think this also demonstrates the shift towards Call of Duty-like shooters.
I agree on that as well. Many more shooters in today's market along with a declining economy from 2007 will make a difference. Still, a decline from 49% to 15% of Halo users is quite the eye opener!


Back on topic about NBA elite, as mentioned by some of you earlier, there's absolutely no way it can compete with 2K in the near future because 2K signed Jordan for a few years. Let's face it, Jordan = sales.
     
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Oct 20, 2010, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
...somehow this time of the month has managed to extend itself.
That's what she said.

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Oct 21, 2010, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by KCrosbie View Post
I agree on that as well. Many more shooters in today's market along with a declining economy from 2007 will make a difference. Still, a decline from 49% to 15% of Halo users is quite the eye opener!
It's not that bad. Having a 50% tie ratio for a flagship title? That's insane.

According to wikipedia there's 40+ mil 360s and 10 mil copies of Halo 3. That's roughly a 25% tie. To me that's a more realistic target for tie %. We still got Christmas coming, too.


Originally Posted by KCrosbie View Post
Back on topic about NBA elite, as mentioned by some of you earlier, there's absolutely no way it can compete with 2K in the near future because 2K signed Jordan for a few years. Let's face it, Jordan = sales.
I call bull. If Elite had MJ next year and 2k had nothing, nobody would give a shit.
     
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Oct 21, 2010, 10:58 AM
 
New NPD report to factor in digital, used, mobile and rental sales | Joystiq
In other words, sales of physical game copies simply don't account for all the money pumped into the industry anymore. As such, the NPD will soon release the debut issue of its new report, Games Industry: Total Consumer Spend. While the report still includes data on sales of new games, accessories and hardware, it will also feature data on "used games, rentals, mobile apps, social network games, and digitally acquired content in the U.S."


Gran Turismo 5 Creator Still Thinking About Bikes
Project Gotham added them. Burnout did too. Could Gran Turismo 5 be the latest car racing game to introduce motorbikes?
I found them to be very meh in both games.


NBA Live 10 Roster Update Available Now
With NBA Elite 11 indefinitely postponed, EA Sports promised to continue supporting NBA Live 10 with a fully updated roster for the 2010-2011 NBA season.
I'm not surprised, but do these dicks usually drop support as soon as the new version comes out?


Xbox Live Silver to be called 'Xbox Live Free Membership' | Joystiq
The new name no longer emphasizes Silver's status as subordinate to Gold, but rather highlights the advantage of that level of membership -- the fact that it's free.
...and opens up the possibility for a newly christened mid-price-range Silver in the future.
     
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Oct 21, 2010, 11:45 AM
 
So what would the new silver be? $30/year for online play only?
     
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Oct 21, 2010, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
So what would the new silver be? $30/year for online play only?
I think that's the idea I floated previously, yeah. Release day-access to the DLC and demos, as well.
     
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Oct 21, 2010, 11:58 AM
 
NBA Jam sets PS3 and Xbox 360 on fire Nov. 17 | Joystiq
The arcade basketball title will slam dunk into retail on November 17, for the same $50 price point as the Wii version.
That makes Elite worth, what? $10? $20 if the Remix (originally planned for DLC) Mode was worth a generous $10 as well?

You'll be able to play Classic 2-on-2 mode online on day one, but EA plans to add several additional online features in a December title update -- features like various "Remix Games," four-player Jam Party mode, and an Online Progression mode in which players build their character by taking them through a series of online challenges. The fact that all the online features aren't ready for launch adds more credence to the idea that EA is using this to plug an Elite-shaped hole.
Of course, sounds like Jam isn't worth $50 itself.


What a mess.
     
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Oct 22, 2010, 10:37 AM
 
Friday News: No Mutha'uckin' NPD Edition

Gamasutra - News - In-Depth: Team Fortress 2 Community Contributors' Five-Figure Payouts
Today, Valve said that community content creators Rob Laro, Shawn Spetch, Steven Skidmore, Spencer Kern and Shaylyn Hamm took home initial royalty payments ranging from $39,000 to $47,000 each from the first round of Team Fortress 2 content creation. And these are just the checks from the first two weeks of operation.
Valve said it was going to deposit the royalties in the modders' PayPal accounts, but the revenue from the sales was so high that it exceeded some of the service's limits on deposit size. Valve flew Kern and Skidmore to the developer's Kirkland, WA headquarters to give them the payments in person.
"Once people ... realize this is about their community, and that the right people are getting the benefits, ... after a while, they'll say 'this is really how these kinds of communities need to work.'"

He added, "It benefits us because it grows the community, right? These [content creators] benefit, but we benefit too. Team Fortress 2 is a better product because we have community contributions in it. They're going to go off and listen to what the community says about how they can do that better, and we can draft along, as we both benefit."

Prosecutors Seek to Block Xbox Hacking Pioneer From Mod-Chip Trial | Threat Level | Wired.com
the nation’s first federal jury trial of a defendant accused of jailbreaking Xbox 360s — installing mod chips that allow the console to run pirated or home-brew games and applications.

...

Additionally, Huang said, the DMCA should be interpreted to allow for “fair use” exemptions, so chipping a console for legitimate purposes would be permitted, even if it is found to be a circumvention.

The U.S. Copyright Office, he noted, just granted an exception to the DMCA to allow the jailbreaking of cellphones, and the iPhone in particular, allowing the iPhone to run third-party apps not approved by Apple. Modding a game console should be treated the same way, he said.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 01:20 PM
 
How is Polyphonic not up against a class action yet?
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 02:44 PM
 
Monday News: Sorry, Fatty Edition

Fallout: New Vegas is buggy as hell; where's the outrage?
So why are we all so tolerant of bugs in a major release?

"I think when you create a game as large as Fallout 3 or New Vegas you are going to run into issues that even a testing team of 300 won't spot, so we're just trying to address those as quickly as possible and so is Bethesda," senior designer Chris Avellone told CVG. The first patch is already live for the PC version, with console patches on the way. This patch is likely to be part one of a long-running series. Is it really that simple? Should we be more understanding of bugs in an ambitious, open-world game?
Not every developer can get away with this. You need a franchise with a large amount of goodwill up front and gameplay that's strong enough to combat a high number of bugs. New Vegas has both, which is why we're seeing the game gain critical accolades, as well as funny YouTube videos covering the game's technical flaws. There may not be outrage because so many gamers found the game to still be worth their time and money. The problem is that it could send a dangerous message to other publishers readying big-name sequels.
I feel like GoW2 kicked off this debate, but here it is again.


3D And Gyro Sensor Might Make Racing Difficult
The 3DS has a sweet spot for viewing 3D. Tilt the console to the side, and the 3D effect vanishes. Gyro sensing is based on tilt controls!
One gimmick is incompatible with another. I see dark days ahead for Nintendo*

relax, not really
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 03:15 PM
 
I simply don't see the difference between NV and Fallout 3, bug-wise.

Where was all this outrage back when Fallout 3 won game of the year, hmm? Besides the first crash I reported at hour 7 I haven't experienced a freeze since (now over 30 hours in). The NPCs act the same way as in F3, the enemies once and a great while have difficulty with the terrain (mostly radscorpions) just like Fallout 3, VATS is sometimes picky about where it lets you aim...just like Fallout 3.

I have yet to see any major graphical glitches that plagued some areas in F3. I have yet to encounter any quest-related glitches, and I've done a good amount of quests too.

Yes, Bethesda's game engine seems to have its fair share of gremlins, and it doesn't surprise me in the least that they carried over from Fallout 3. Honestly, if NV sets a standard for games then wonderful. I'd rather have a supremely ambitious game with rough edges than another Halo or CoD clone with zero personality and no bugs.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I simply don't see the difference between NV and Fallout 3, bug-wise.
Doesn't that say something within itself? Is it acceptable for a sequel to have an equal number of bugs as the previous entry? I vote no. Improvement is expected.

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Where was all this outrage back when Fallout 3 won game of the year, hmm?
Blinded by the light. Don't recall what else was out, but weak competition, too?

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Yes, Bethesda's game engine seems to have its fair share of gremlins, and it doesn't surprise me in the least that they carried over from Fallout 3. Honestly, if NV sets a standard for games then wonderful. I'd rather have a supremely ambitious game with rough edges than another Halo or CoD clone with zero personality and no bugs.
How about we trot out something better than some binary options? It would also be beneficial if you took a step back and considered how you'd feel if this was a different game, say Gears of War 2? Is it just as acceptable then?
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 03:49 PM
 
You can't compare a game like GoW to something on the scale of Fallout. GoW is comprised of linear corridors and scripted set battles. No backtracking, no exploring, no side-quests, no chances for things to happen out of sequence. If GoW had long load times, NPCs walking into walls, and crashes then yes, it would be totally unacceptable given the lesser amount of variables a game like that has. If "start the game and run forward until then end" is all you have to worry about then your game better be bug-free. For example, Metro 2033 (FPS) has a really annoying glitch that involved the gas-mask filters which is supposed to be a huge part of the core gameplay. That's something that pisses me off that they missed because, really, why the hell does one of your selling features not work right?

A good comparison would be WoW, but by now it has had so many updates and expansion packs it's hard to tell. Was the original release of WoW less buggy than Fallout? Of course WoW is a bigger game world, and more complicated.

Oblivion was plagued by any number of problems when first released, and that game is goddamn huge too. GTA, the whole series, had a myriad of problems and odd glitches, but I don't fault it because, again, of the massive scope of the game. You might say 'how did they not catch these bugs?' but honestly think about the millions of different ways a player can approach a game like GTA, Fallout, or WoW and it becomes clear that you either need to cut a large amount of content out of your game to make everything run perfect, or you keep it complicated and put up with some inconsistencies.

Fallout's selling point, to me, is an open-world game that lays out in front of you and lets you decide how to play it. In that respect every Fallout game has nailed that concept. It's not about smooth shooting, or wonderful character animation, but more a game about exploration and inventory management....two aspects that work just great.

Sure, I agree that Bethesda should have been able to clean up most of the problems in two years worth of time, but really once they licensed their engine out to Obsidian I can see their work as being done. Does it mean it's acceptable to release a game riddled with bugs? No. Does it really detriment the overall core gameplay aspects of the Fallout series? Not really.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 03:54 PM
 
List of big names games from 2008:

Gears of War 2
Call of Duty WaW
Mirrors Edge
Left 4 Dead
Fable 2
Dead Space
GTA IV

Seems like a decent amount of competition to me.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
You can't compare a game like GoW to something on the scale of Fallout. GoW is comprised of linear corridors and scripted set battles. No backtracking, no exploring, no side-quests, no chances for things to happen out of sequence. If GoW had long load times, NPCs walking into walls, and crashes then yes, it would be totally unacceptable given the lesser amount of variables a game like that has. If "start the game and run forward until then end" is all you have to worry about then your game better be bug-free.
Of course, their cover system was less than simple, and that's where a lot of the issues would occur.

My problem with equating scale with acceptability of bugs is at a certain point I think the logical conclusion is to either cut content and polish what you have or push back release. To me this, like Gears, is preying on a customer base it knows will purchase regardless of those problems. That's not good precedent or business.

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Oblivion was plagued by any number of problems when first released, and that game is goddamn huge too. GTA, the whole series, had a myriad of problems and odd glitches, but I don't fault it because, again, of the massive scope of the game. You might say 'how did they not catch these bugs?' but honestly think about the millions of different ways a player can approach a game like GTA, Fallout, or WoW and it becomes clear that you either need to cut a large amount of content out of your game to make everything run perfect, or you keep it complicated and put up with some inconsistencies.
I'm glad you brought up GTA, because I almost did above. I also remember GTA getting hell by San Andreas because it was the third installment and issues continued to persist. I love GTA, but I think the criticisms were valid.

(Cut to GTA IV: They took their sweet-ass time to release it, and it shows.)

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Sure, I agree that Bethesda should have been able to clean up most of the problems in two years worth of time, but really once they licensed their engine out to Obsidian I can see their work as being done. Does it mean it's acceptable to release a game riddled with bugs? No. Does it really detriment the overall core gameplay aspects of the Fallout series? Not really.
I can't argue this point fairly. What I will say is (perhaps skewing towards the PC side) freezes do impact the experience irrevocably.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
List of big names games from 2008:

Gears of War 2
Call of Duty WaW
Mirrors Edge
Left 4 Dead
Fable 2
Dead Space
GTA IV

Seems like a decent amount of competition to me.
The 2008 GOTY GOTYs: The Best of the Best
  • Fable II: (4) Joystiq, PETA, The Telegraph and X-Play

    Fallout 3: (7) The Associated Press, Crispy Gamer, Gamasutra, GamesRadar, Gamespy, UGO and
    Yahoo Games

    Grand Theft Auto IV: (7) GameTrailers, Giant Bomb, Kotaku, The New York Times, Play, Spike TV's VGAs and
    Time Magazine

    Left 4 Dead: (1) Destructoid

    LittleBigPlanet: (3) Edge, Eurogamer and GamePro

    Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots: (1) GameSpot

    Saint's Row 2: (1) Zero Punctuation
Honestly, I'm surprised Fable got as many nods as it did, but one is ****ing PETA. L4D is too niche to ever win. As the for the rest on your list, no surprise they're absent, for various reasons.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 04:13 PM
 
I suppose we can both, then, agree that Obsidian should have taken another 6 months to tweak the game. I would have waited. In general I'd rather have a game delayed than released with bugs...within reason (Polyphonic I'm looking at you)

However, many of the silly glitches seem to be rooted in the game engine, gamebryo. I'm not fully versed in the ways of developing games, but it seems to me that Obsidian didn't plan on doing any under-the-hood work on the aging quirky engine, and may not have been able to. Some of the bugs that NV has go all the way back to Oblivion (early 2006) so it is safe to say that the engine is less than desirable and needs to be retired. In fact, the engine that powers GTA IV seems like an obvious choice.

As for the scale/bugs issue I'm torn here. NV added so much, and that's not exaggeration, that I feel it would be a crime to cut out anything for the sake of squashing petty bugs. Of course the sensible thing to do would be, as you said, push the game's release back.

Another thought: There has already been a cross-platform update to NV, in fact it was released Friday night. I haven't noticed any quirks gone, but it is nice to know there was such a quick response to overwhelming anguish. If any of Bethesda's previous games are a litmus test, we can expect a whole host of updates and bug-fixes. Not the same as releasing it right the first time, no, but better than ignoring it altogether. Fallout 2 also suffered from a massive amount of bugs and glitched quests after release. To me, it is an inherent problem in the amount of stuff they cram in. To players like me it's worth the minor frustration to experience such a lovingly crafted, unique, and deep game world.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I suppose we can both, then, agree that Obsidian should have taken another 6 months to tweak the game. I would have waited. In general I'd rather have a game delayed than released with bugs...within reason (Polyphonic I'm looking at you)
I agree. I just don't see it actually happening with how development costs are soaring.

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
However, many of the silly glitches seem to be rooted in the game engine, gamebryo. I'm not fully versed in the ways of developing games, but it seems to me that Obsidian didn't plan on doing any under-the-hood work on the aging quirky engine, and may not have been able to. Some of the bugs that NV has go all the way back to Oblivion (early 2006) so it is safe to say that the engine is less than desirable and needs to be retired. In fact, the engine that powers GTA IV seems like an obvious choice.
This is what I'm getting at. They're using an engine that will produce unfixable bugs knowingly. Do it if you like, but I feel like charging $60 for damaged goods is a little insulting. (I'm sure there's some other IRL comparison to be made here, but I can't think of one).

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
To players like me it's worth the minor frustration to experience such a lovingly crafted, unique, and deep game world.
I'm sure I'd feel the same way about the right game.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 05:21 PM
 
One obvious comparison is charging 400 dollars for an Xbox 360 with a 33% chance of failing.

The way I see it, NV is Obsidian's re-imagining of Fallout 2 on a 'modern' game engine. I also imagine that for them to produce a Fallout game they would certainly have to license everything off of Bethesda, hence they most likely had no choice but to use Gamebryo.

I'll admit my love of Fallout in general makes me quite biased in this discussion, as you said, most other games would warrant scorn rained down upon them for such transgressions. In short, I love what Obsidian has done to flesh out the game in numerous ways and I feel as if the problems inherent in Bethesda's engine can't be blamed on them in full. I don't feel robbed of 60 dollars, whereas a nearly bug-free game like Reach feels like a waste, as does the money I spent on GoW2. If it wasn't for the fun times we had as a crew on both games then I'd be one unhappy camper.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 05:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
One obvious comparison is charging 400 dollars for an Xbox 360 with a 33% chance of failing.
Good call. But MS addressed the problem by extending the warranty to three years.

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I don't feel robbed of 60 dollars, whereas a nearly bug-free game like Reach feels like a waste, as does the money I spent on GoW2. If it wasn't for the fun times we had as a crew on both games then I'd be one unhappy camper.
There's a part of me that's very worried that I will never touch Reach again after tomorrow. I don't want to say scared, but disturbed. I don't think I've ever abandoned a game to quickly.
     
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Oct 25, 2010, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
There's a part of me that's very worried that I will never touch Reach again after tomorrow. I don't want to say scared, but disturbed. I don't think I've ever abandoned a game to quickly.
Same here, I usually try to wring every ounce of enjoyment out of every game I buy, it's in my cheapskate nature. With Reach I was bored of it immediately. Lately my friends and I have been doing video game/beer night at my buddies house (46" 1080p LCD) and they all love playing Reach. I'm the one who keeps suggesting other games to play.

To a newcomer on the Halo series (like aforementioned 46" TV owner) I'll admit the game has a finesse and polish to it unlike many others, but I'm washing my hands of Halo at this point. Maybe if Black Ops wasn't coming out in a month I could see some more meet-ups once the initial New Vegas fire has died down, but I really don't see a future for that poor game.
     
 
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