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Guy Incognito · Jul 17, 2002, 09:26 PM

EverCrack coming out on Mac. Two problems: it's old and we won't be able to play against PC players due to server incompatibilities. This turns this MMPMORG into a plain old ugly ORG. Booo. Westlake has another loser on their hands. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

MacGorilla · Jul 17, 2002, 09:32 PM

What the hell does "server incompatibilities" mean?
It will be kind of lame without multiplayer.

Guy Incognito · Jul 17, 2002, 09:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MacGorilla:
What the hell does "server incompatibilities" mean?
It will be kind of lame without multiplayer.<hr /></blockquote>It means we'll only be able to play against other OS X players.

Which means there's gonna be about 7 people in the realm. Ok, I'm exaggerating...but not that much.

timster · Jul 17, 2002, 10:56 PM

I had the same reaction when I read that EQ wouldnt be compatible with the PC version.

After some thinking about it, and discussing with my friend, I believe I know the reason why. And all this does is show just what a great big dumb box of rocks the EQ programmers are. Westlake actually couldn't do anything even if they wanted to. Heres what I think - but its all speculation. Feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

Verant would obviously like to make EQ for OSX work with all other PC players but they can't. Why? Let's see...

It can't be the servers itself. Server code can be updated pretty easy.

So it probably has to be the client side. Now, we'll say that the client side networking code is strongly tied into Windows, and thats why it doesn't work on OSX.

So why can't Verant redo the networking code to be cross platform and issue a patch for everyone? They would be able to... if they owned the code.

Since they can't modify the code, they must not own it. Which means it was licensed from another company.

Now, considering the success of EQ and how rich Verant must be, they definitely would have the money to pay the developer of the network code to create a portable one that could be used on both Windoze and OSX. And what developer wouldn't turn down the chance for more business? Especially when that same company could also license that new OSX code to other MMORPG developers.

What developer a) doesn't need the money, b) doesnt gain to have their networking code native on OSX, c) won't bow to the political pressure of Verant-Sony?

Hmm... Microsoft?

To further add to my theory, I read somewhere about an game porter, mabye Glenda of Westlake who was once asked why Age of Empires II on OSX couldn't play with PC users. Glenda then explained that ther was no direct port of Microsoft's MP networking code, and that Westlake would be able to hack out a good "emulation" of that networking code, but that Microsoft updates their code so often that it was often futile to try to keep up with the changes.

And we all know that no Mac user would put up with EQ working only half of the time, considering that you can't even play it offline. It'd be worse than the RtCW situation.

So, I think Verant was forced to make the decision to port EQ to OSX, and Westlake would be using their best simulation of the Microsoft networking code, but to prevent incompatibilies from happening, the Mac users would be isolated on their own realm, where patches could affect everyone uniformly.

Of course, if Verant programmers were smart enough to build an abstraction layer in the networking code between the MS implementation and the actual communication that the servers use, we wouldn't have this problem.

It still doesnt completely convince me, however that Verant/Westlake wouldn't be able to come up with a solution to use a homebrew networking layer for the OSX EQ client that would work with the EQ servers.

In any way, it appears that EQ is a much more badly developed/planned program than we all thought. I.e., no abstraction on the network level, what the hell?

Big Mac · Jul 18, 2002, 06:48 PM

I'm wondering whether other platform providers have any recourse in this matter, considering that MS was found guilty of being a monopoloy. MS shouldn't be allowed to keep that code closed. The free market cannot function when one company makes the rules. It's a major drag that AoE II/SW:GB also suffer from this problem - I was going to purchase GB before I heard about the limitation. What happened to that independent oversight that was supposed to govern MS's conduct? I guess the federal government has displayed its incompetence once again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[ 07-18-2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Big Mac ]

scaught · Jul 18, 2002, 08:22 PM

at least relatives of mac users who kill themselves will have a scapegoat of sorts now.

blizzard · Jul 18, 2002, 09:55 PM

Ha ha...I was wondering how well this would sell, and I really don't think it's going to do all that well, sadly. I for one have no interest in it, and I think I'm about as hardcore as Mac gamers tend to get

Add in the server incompatibilities, and I can't really see much attraction at all.

Guy Incognito · Jul 19, 2002, 08:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by blizzard:
Ha ha...I was wondering how well this would sell, and I really don't think it's going to do all that well, sadly. I for one have no interest in it, and I think I'm about as hardcore as Mac gamers tend to get

Add in the server incompatibilities, and I can't really see much attraction at all.<hr /></blockquote>And it would be somewhat false ad if the EverQuest for Mac box didn't have 'incompatible with the PC servers' printed on it. It would be sad if lil' Jimmy got his mom to buy EverQuest for him and then they got home and realized that they can only play on the very small Mac servers.

starman · Jul 19, 2002, 09:49 AM

Where does it say that you can't play against PC users?

Here's the official press release:

<a href="http://sonyonline.com/corp/press_releases/eqmac071702.html" target="_blank">http://sonyonline.com/corp/press_releases/eqmac071702.html</a>

Mike

SirCastor · Jul 19, 2002, 10:15 AM

I think I'll go back to crossing my fingers and hoping that blizzard will release WoW for the Mac..

-A

pahroza · Jul 21, 2002, 01:08 PM

I'm not terribly worried about being able to play only against other OS X users. What I do hope is that people go out and purchase this game. I have never played EQ, however it's an important step in bringing MMORPG to the Mac. If enough people show interest in and adopt this game, perhaps EQ2 will be released for the Mac as well as PC in a much more timely fashion. As I mentioned previously, I haven't played EQ, but back when I had a pc, I spent a lot of time playing Ultima Online. I still play here and there on those 2 times a year I visit my parents, as my mom also plays UO. I'd love to be able to play Ultima Online on my mac, or EQ for that matter, at least I'd have a choice.

I have tried playing Lineage, which seems to be about as close to Ultima as I can find, but it just doesn't do it for me. It's not as intuitive, not as fast, and for whatever reason not as fun for me. I enjoy having a choice though, that it took so long to bring to the Mac platform is a shame. Perhaps that's another of the values of Mac OS X, game developers are having an easier time finding quality developers who can program for the OS, and in time we'll see a greater influx of games to our beloved platform. I applaud that the decision to bring the game to the Mac has been made, perhaps in the future these decisions will be more timely.

Millennium · Jul 21, 2002, 05:59 PM

Crippling the Mac versions of software is suicide. Always has been, always will be. You'd think the game developers would have learned that lesson with Half-Life.

But it seems we're going to go at this once more. There is no reason for the Mac version to be crippled like this. Even if they have to use different networking protocols, it should be fairly simple to write bridging software at the server end, and it all has to go through the server, so that's actually feasible.

Whatever. I'm not getting this. I don't play EQ anyway, but if they actually made it play properly (i.e. with PC players) I'd buy two copies just to show support. But not for crippleware.

blizzard · Jul 21, 2002, 06:11 PM

Geez, I wish I had the bling to buy Mac software titles just to show support...

hmurchison2001 · Jul 21, 2002, 11:06 PM

What if this is just a stop gap approach to see how viable the Mac market could be. I imagine that even if a group of Mac EQ'ers in decent numbers have only Mac opponents this could change in the future.

[APi]TheMan · Jul 22, 2002, 02:47 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by blizzard:
Geez, I wish I had the bling to buy Mac software titles just to show support...<hr /></blockquote>I totally hear that. I'm a less than casual gamer, but it bugs me to see these games suffer on the Mac platform, it gives a false image of the Macintosh as a platform. We have fast machines and capable hardware but not a lot of developers wanting to write code specifically optimized for our platform.

Maybe when I become a pornstar I'll register several copies of every game

starman · Jul 22, 2002, 07:14 PM

I'm still waiting for an official link saying that EQ for the Mac can't play with PC users.

Why is it you're discussing it with no OFFICIAL annoucement about it?

Mike

echoes · Jul 23, 2002, 06:55 AM

EQ divides all its players into a ton of independent servers so as not to overcrowd each world. As long as there are enough Mac players to populate a single server this could actually be a good thing.

All the players will be new to the game and learning together (instead of all 1st lvl Mac players and lvl 60 PC players). Also all the client side Windows only tools that give PC players advantages (like a map program that shows a top down view of an entire zone and where all the players and monsters are) won't be in use on the Mac only server(s). Everyone will be making the same newbie mistakes together, there will be no Uber Guilds camping the best spawns and Mac players will have the opportunity to achieve the top positions in the online EQ society or whatever.

So anyway, like I said, as long as there's enough players to populate a single server it should be much better this way.

blizzard · Jul 23, 2002, 09:22 PM

Echoes..that's an interesting way of looking at it...can't say I quite thought of it lke that, but if there are enough players, then you're right, it could very well be a good thing.

Starman..."We have also learned several details that online game fans might be interested in -- Mac OS X EverQuest players will not be able to play against (or with) the PC players of the game, due to server incompatibilities."

<a href="http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ArticleID=5869" target="_blank">http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ArticleID=5869</a>

It's not OFFICIAL official, but it's good enough to spark serious debate. Remember, the Mac port of Half-Life was never 'officially' supposed to play against PC versions, and we all know where THAT wound up

starman · Jul 23, 2002, 11:42 PM

blizzard,
THANK YOU. I looked on IMG (well, on their front page) and didn't see anything related to EQ on there. What's bugging me is that there's nothing on Sony's site about server incompatabilities.

Speaking as a developer, I can't understand why they can't get the 1's and 0's right.

"Player A steps B spaces at angle X for period Y milliseconds facing Z degrees".

I wrote a printer driver for the Mac and Windows that takes Windows and Mac graphics objects and makes a unified object list out of them for printing. If I can do that ALONE, these guys can make the Macs talk to Windows servers. I'm wondering if it's just laziness.

Mike

blizzard · Jul 24, 2002, 09:48 PM

THAT, my friend, is a very good question. We know it CAN be done, and we know it probably SHOULD be done, but economics can be a real bitch sometimes. Sometimes the reality of a small market is that people aren't willing to spend a whole hell of a lot to support it.

starman · Jul 26, 2002, 09:10 AM

I see several issues with a Mac-only EQ server:

1) If Windows people can somehow get on that server, there's going to be a lot of Mac-bashing on it.

2) Everyone has to start from scratch on that server. That means on day 1, everyone is level 1. No higher level players which is a BAD thing since part of playing is helping people on a whim. I've done it. I'll see level 12 people getting their ass kicked when I'm playing my level 40 druid and I'll help them out. It would take a LONG time for players to get to even level 20 or 30, and it takes a LONG time to get to level 60, especially since there's paractically nobody to group with on a server like this..

3) Right-clicking.

Mike

mitchell_pgh · Jul 26, 2002, 01:54 PM

And then people wonder why computer games are slow on the Mac. This game is old, incompatible, and stupid if plaid via single player...

echoes · Jul 27, 2002, 06:32 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by starman:
I see several issues with a Mac-only EQ server:
2) Everyone has to start from scratch on that server. That means on day 1, everyone is level 1. No higher level players which is a BAD thing since part of playing is helping people on a whim. I've done it. I'll see level 12 people getting their ass kicked when I'm playing my level 40 druid and I'll help them out. It would take a LONG time for players to get to even level 20 or 30, and it takes a LONG time to get to level 60, especially since there's paractically nobody to group with on a server like this..<hr /></blockquote>That's not really a big deal. All the EQ servers at some point started with everyone at LVL1. I myself played during the launch when it was like that. There are a tremendous amount of low level people to group with and everyone on the server is thrilled when people become high enough level to cast some of the more useful spells.

starman · Jul 28, 2002, 12:32 AM

echoes,
That was 3 years ago. You can't walk 3 feet in Freeport without tripping over someone that's level 60. It's going to take MONTHS for that to happen on a Mac-only server. It's not good to have a server full of newbies when there are 20+ servers full of seasoned adventurers.

Mike

Osirisis · Jul 28, 2002, 10:56 AM

Hearing this is coming out has got me giddy with excitement. Dropped my Diablo II bug about 3 months ago. Waiting for a replacement. Anyone know if the release is going to have all the expansion packs included or if they'll be separate?

I forgot to ask, what's the current account pricing scheme on the PC side. anyone know offhand?

edit:Added question.

[ 07-28-2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Osirisis ]

starman · Jul 28, 2002, 11:42 AM

According to Sony's official press release, all the expansions will be on the Mac.

I don't know what the pricing scheme is. I pay every 6 months.

<a href="http://www.everquest.com" target="_blank">http://www.everquest.com</a>

Mike