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elucid · Jun 17, 2002, 10:54 AM

i'm working on my first site and i was looking for some seasoned advice. how functional do you think flash sites are. i've heard i should have html as well for those who don't have a flash player. (who doesn't?) am i just hooked on a fad?

macvillage.net · Jun 17, 2002, 12:23 PM

Flash is good, but don't design a site in just Flash:

1. Not indexed by search engines
2. Lots of RAM needed for viewing of most flash sites (if one flash file)
3. Without a decent processor, it's too choppy to look good
4. 56k users hate loading a whole site to see something on the home page

many more reasons...

Using flash for an animation is a nice thing... really dresses up the site, but making a flash site, is just pushing it to far. You just get rid of an audience.

Flash is an alternative for Animated GIF's (and a really good one) it's not a HTML replacement. A good website is consistant across web browsers and balances technologies (HTML, Flash, DHTML, CSS, Javascript)

skalie · Jun 17, 2002, 02:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by macvillage.net:
1. Not indexed by search engines.
<hr /></blockquote>Why not? Flash is embeded in html, add a few meta descriptions to the head, there's your search engine index. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It really depends on what you are trying to achieve with your site.

An information site should avoid flash, a site showcasing artistic work, for example, can greatly benefit from it's graphical possibilities.

train · Jun 17, 2002, 05:31 PM

It depends on the purpose of the site. The question is whether using flash lets you accomplish the goals of your site more effectively. Visual sites like portfolios, movie sites, etc. can work well, but you don't yet see too many ecommerce, news, etc. sites done entirely in flash. If you're not taking advantage of flash's potential, it's hard to justify. Don't do something in Flash just because you can, justify your design decisions.

As for the search engines: yes, you can use metatags, actually Flash will put the text of the flash into them for you. So you'll still get in them, but you may not be indexed as well or rank as high. There's a lot that goes into search engine algorithms that metatags won't cover.

train · Jun 17, 2002, 05:37 PM

Also, 2-4 of macvillage's concerns apply to larger animated "flashy" sites. Although it's not done that often (because it requires discipline and tradeoffs) you CAN design a site in flash that is not large, is not choppy, and doesn't tax ram/processor requirements.

MojoRising022 · Jun 19, 2002, 03:44 PM

The biggest drawback to Flash is how easy it is to cross the line between functionality and plain old cheese. Too many Flash-based sites are well across that line.

Flash also has a pretty steep learning curve...based on the way you phrased your question, I don't think authoring Flash content (at least in a functional, intuitive, low-bandwidth manner) will be within the realm of possibility for you. Learn HTML or at least how to use a WYSIWYG editor and go from there...forget about Flash for now.(sorry if i seem presumptious)

elucid · Jun 19, 2002, 05:50 PM

wow thanx everyone for your advice,
i really hear what you all are saying about big bulky overdone sites, but in the same turn, i like some of them, art for arts sake.
this site would be for my band and really is intended to be a learning experience for me to see the whole thing through, not just design and such.
as far as flash, i've done some animations so i'm familiar with the interface and some scripting, but for a different end product.
as far as html i do know the basics, but maybe i don't know enough to be flashy(no pun intended) with just the text editor. i've used dreamweaver demo to set things up and then just copy the code for tables and such, but minus the need for a timeline is there really much difference in the end product? i thought flash might streamline the process for my needs.

by the way what is a wysiwyg editor?

skalie · Jun 19, 2002, 07:40 PM

What You See Is What You Get.............Editors like Dreamweaver etc.

macvillage.net · Jun 20, 2002, 09:36 AM

Flash doesn't help much for indexing in Google, by far the most important these days since it is used by Yahoo! among others.

META tags aren't used to much since many abused them (too many sites have "Britney Spears" as a meta tag, and search engines caught on)

Flash is a good alternative to Animated GIF's, QuickTime, or other multimedia. My word of advice is to use it as such. Don't design the entire site of it, but an element or two of it. Give users the experience without the hastle. That is what makes a truly talanted webmaster (IMHO). A website is a percise ballance of technologies. You don't need flash to write plain text. That is overdone, but for a cool little splash screen, it is totally appropriate.

I use flash on my splash page:
<a href="http://media.accettura.com" target="_blank">http://media.accettura.com</a>

but all the "content" is plain HTML for compatibility. So no matter what, people get what they need, and it is indexed right.

elucid · Jun 20, 2002, 10:26 AM

nice and clean, i like it
i'm prretty new here ( i know it shows )
but once again thanx
the link to macvillage was a nice surprise. it's another worthwhile place to drop some down time.

if meta tags aren't used much anymore then how does google index sites?
how might i add links if not with the meta tags?

i guess i might not start out with it but i still love the arrow follows the mouse kinda stuff with shifting images
it's mostly band sites that use this but some cool sites can be found through:

<a href="http://www.hi-res.net/" target="_blank">http://www.hi-res.net/</a>

it's a nice site in itself that showcases their work
i like the massive attack and amontobin links there.

dvwannabe · Jun 20, 2002, 12:31 PM

I'm all for designing all flash sites. 98% of all internet users have Flash-enabled browsers. It's not the best e-commerce solution (yet) but it's perfect for a site to show your band. However, the biggestr drawback is that users can't go back once insode your movie. So you should do one of two of the following when designing your site:

1. Put it in a pop-up window: <a href="http://www.fitch.com." target="_blank">www.fitch.com.</a>
2. Or break it up into seperate movies on different HTML pages :www.mini.com

the best site to learn flash and see some great examples is <a href="http://www.Flashkit.com" target="_blank">www.Flashkit.com</a>

good luck.

macvillage.net · Jun 20, 2002, 07:27 PM

Google uses a technique based on links.

<a href="http://www.google.com/webmasters/4.html" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/webmasters/4.html</a>

for ratings (position in search relevance)

But for it to know what the contents of your site are, it must be in text (HTML, TEXT, even PDF).. Flash isn't included in what it can read. Since flash is proprietary, and kind of guarded, don't expect to see it happen anytime soon.

Think about it this way....

Look at a site like MacNN... tons of good information. To dress it up, they could animate the logo and tabs.... but to make the entire page flash, would be a real waste, since it renders just fine in HTML. That is why it is in HTML.

Think of flash as a replacment for GIF and QuickTime. That's what it is.

Used right, it can really make a site something to see. Used wrong, it's a pain in the butt.

And just because 9x% have flash, that doesn't mean 9x% are willing to deal with flash. Those with slow modems sometimes can't be bothered. Some just don't like the feel (every site is different as far as navigation, links can be hidden), some just don't like how long it can take for those anoying splashes you don't care about to finish... there are many reasons not to like flash sites. So just because 99% have it, don't assume 99% will like it. Same goes with any other plugin.

The trick is to use Flash to it's advantages, and use other technologies to their advantages.

elucid · Jun 21, 2002, 08:46 AM

i love everyone of you
you all are the best

vsurfer · Jul 5, 2002, 06:24 PM

Dropped after visiting a number of unmistakeably Flash sites

some were deadly:

<a href="http://www.clarkfoam.com" target="_blank">http://www.clarkfoam.com</a>

some were beautifully done but if you know Rusty's product line in depth you'll know content took a hit here.

<a href="http://www.rusty.com" target="_blank">http://www.rusty.com</a>

(like where are Rusty's Desert Island and C5 product line, where are the product vital stats: nose tail center widths etc. etc.)

my 2c:

1. Flash is another tool in the web developer's toolbelt

1. b. If you are developing for a client, you are probably well advised to listen closely to what you client wants. of course you are free to expound on what your experience indicates might serve their best interests in the long or short run*, but ultimately you must answer to their wishes.
2. Yes, as others have said above, it depends on what purpose your site serves. If your audience, or your client or your client's audience demands a certain feel,,,,and following the flash crowd is "de rigeur", well there you are.

BUT

Subjectively, too many professional Flash sites, that feel unmistakeably like "flash" sites. Almost as if they are working from the same template, the same font size, typefaces, and the same color palette. So many cliches that are dead giveaways. After you've seen the cool animation once you really need the "skip flash" option or you go nuts if you have to go back often.

These flash sites tend to lead the user by the nose, like network TV, and take their own sweet time with elaborate animated transitions from one link to the next. The user's choice is easily abused if it isn't used carefully. (But if you want the hard sell it may be the way to go)

So many flash designed sites seem to use tiny, fuzzy, unreadable text. --It's as if no-one adjusts the preferences or the template fer crying out loud!

*I'd imagine one could still stay cutting edge with creative use of CSS, but the learning curve IMHO is even steeper. Although in the long run you'll cut the amount of HMTL.

Sorry, my own home page is not a good example as I am transitioning to CSS as I learn more about stylesheets.

Millennium · Jul 6, 2002, 03:20 PM

Flash-only sites are pure evil. They kill accessibility, indexing, bookmarking, and many other important browser features.

However, the judicious use of Flash within a site can work very well. Just be careful not to go overboard, and provide non-Flash equivalents.

Flash wasn't made to create Websites; keep that in mind. It was made to create content, such as graphics, animations, and games. To design a whole site in it is to miss the point of both Flash and of the Web entirely.

Rainy Day · Jul 19, 2002, 11:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dvwannabe:
I'm all for designing all flash sites. 98% of all internet users have Flash-enabled browsers.<hr /></blockquote>Don't believe claims like this. This is a number pulled out of thin air and is totally bogus. Many folks don't use Flash for a variety of reasons. Writing a flash-only site only limits the traffic across your site.