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Gee4orce · Jun 13, 2001, 08:30 AM

So, time for the usual question: what is your preference ? Dreamweaver, GoLive or a good text editor like BBEdit ?

Me, I started out hand coding in BBEdit about 5 years ago. Personally, I think the web has gone way beyond hand coding now, although I always keep one handy for tweaks, and most of my stuff is actually dynamically generated from Perl scripts, so that never sees a design app.

I first used GoLive way back when that was the name of the company and the product was CyberStudio - I instantly fell in love with it. Unfortunately, I dont think Adobe did anything like enough to promote it, and Dreamweaver is far and away more popular. I always loved GoLives site management tools, and lately, the site design tools - something that felt like an afterthought in Dreamweaver. However, I think Dreamweaver has caught up in this respect, and I'd have to say that it's my preferred choice at this time.

But at the end of the day, I think whichever company brings out a native (Carbon or Cocoa) version of their app will be seeing my money.

iSilver · Jun 13, 2001, 09:12 AM

Me, I started out hand coding in BBEdit about 5 years ago. Personally, I think the web has gone way beyond hand coding now, although I always keep one handy for tweaks ...

I could have written that!! Dreamweaver took over when I saw how much time i could save, then there's the features. I passed on GoLive for BBEdit years ago, had a look at V5 but didn't see any compelling reason to migrate there. Maybe next version ... c'mon Macromedia, how 'bout some OS X goodies.

ReggieX · Jun 13, 2001, 05:06 PM

Started on the Mac with WWWWeaver, then to PageSpinner (which is super-cool), then on to BBEdit 3 years ago.
I Still use BB, and swear by it. Homesite on the PC has a couple of feature s that I'd LOOOVE to have in BB, namely customizable tag organization (if you hand code,you get real anal real soon

But as long as I'm on a Mac, I'll take BB. it's small and quick like bunny!

Reg

madra [again!] · Jun 13, 2001, 06:26 PM

i seem to have taken the opposite route.

i started with golive, way back when it was cyberstudio and later migrated to BBedit when i started picking up HTML. i've tried dreamweaver but can't stand it.

in fact i rarely use a WYSIWYG editor these days. why generate 100lines of unfathomable code to do something you could hand-code in about 10?

timster · Jun 13, 2001, 09:33 PM

I started out coding HTML by hand back when the web was in it's "infancy" in 1994, and then moved on to the visual editors, such as GoLive 3, Dreamweaver 2 and PageSpinner. When I started doing HTML professionally, I started working with the code by hand to massage it, then I eventually started to write it completely by hand because I figured that optimizing the code after the WYSWIG editors finished with it took just as much time as it would take for me to write out super-clean HTML by hand.

I'm sure that one could create pages quicker with DW than hand-coding, but it never gives me the control over HTML that i like to have, and it also enables me to easily work around browser differences and compomentize my code so I can reuse it and so forth. The benefits outweigh the time-penalty in the long run.

Hand coding is the way to go if you really want to massage HTML.

And to actually contribute an idea to the discussion. I use Pepper.

-tim

Hobbes · Jun 14, 2001, 12:25 AM

I use Dreamweaver UltraDev for my main design work. I still swear by BBEdit though, for those times that I need hard core code editing.

Although, until Dreamweaver is Carbonized, I've been touching up my coding skills in BBEdit. :-)

As for GoLive, I tried a demo of it once. Didn't like the interface as much as DW though.

Demonhood · Jun 14, 2001, 12:57 AM

go here for the same debate minus bbedit.

Gee4orce · Jun 14, 2001, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by Demonhood:
<STRONG>go here for the same debate minus bbedit.</STRONG>

Hey - at least this thread is in the right forum !

peterthorn · Jun 14, 2001, 05:59 AM

I started using Golive (when it was from Cyberstudio), went to DW, but found myself editing "in hand" so often, that I went to BBEdit, which I'm not willing to trade for anything now (especially now when the OS X version has arrived).

AlbertWu · Jun 14, 2001, 06:02 AM

BBEdit, Definitely. It gives me maximum control over the exact details of the site with minimal effort (no preference panels and **** like that.)

Although GoLive's site management tools are by far the best.

Millennium · Jun 14, 2001, 06:44 AM

I've used all sorts. I started out with WebWeaver (back before the name change). From there I went to Arachnid, this old but cool WYSIWYG editor written in SuperCard (sadly, it hasn't been maintained in years, but it was the first free WYSIWYG editor out there). I've used PageMill and GoLive CyberStudio, and even some of Adobe's incarnation of GoLive.

Overall, though, I still prefer hand-coding my HTML and CSS, mainly because of the degree of control you get. I've found that I can hand-code more efficient HTML/CSS than any WYSIWYG editor I've seen yet, and it's standards-compliant too, (always a nice bonus). I've used BBEdit and XMLWriter for the purpose, but my favorite is currently Pepper. I do wish it syntax-highlighted CSS, though; I've thought of writing a plugin for that as an exercise in lex and yacc.

thalia · Jun 14, 2001, 06:53 AM

I must admit that for years I have loved PageSpinner above all others - I'm far too anal to ever fully trust a WYSIWYG editor! But GoLive and Dreamweaver do have their virtues - I'd probably chose GoLive over Dreamweaver simply because I am more familiar with Adobe's programs and so I find it easier to learn.

el matteo · Jun 14, 2001, 07:16 AM

Dreamweaver is great for creating one-offs...to build up a comp. But I can't imagine using it to build a whole site (well other than a personal site). Its support for SSI and DHTML is kind of weak, which means you've got to have a good text editor to clean up your code and get it perfected. But, Dreamweaver takes care of a lot of my grunt work, so I've got to give it 5 stars just for that (gah...I can't imagine having to build up my own tables, etc. anymore)

sadie · Jun 14, 2001, 07:26 AM

BBEdit, by far.

So much of what i write is actually in PHP, Perl or JavaScript - I'm always spending time writing scripts for everything - that static page design tools are kind of useless. Besides which, I'm painfully anal when it comes to making sure the code I produce is nice - i'd probably go and clean up the automatic code by hand anyway!

And if you need even more evidence of just how bad this gets, I now use BBEdit / HTML as my Word processor - I find it quicker and less annoying to type out a document for the web, than to use a stupid program like Word or AppleWorks. Particularly when the appearance matters, because CSS is a lot easier to use than changing fonts in Word.

If somebody wrote a simple HTML-based word processor, minus all the crap they've added in the last 20 years, I'd use it.

Gee4orce · Jun 14, 2001, 08:18 AM

Sadie - that's not anal. Writing it in XML, with an XSLT sytlesheet transforming it into XHTML with CSS formatting...now that's anal !

I usually write my word processing docs in raw postscript though

daimoni · 11:57 AM

.

Xeo · Jun 16, 2001, 08:24 PM

Well, I've made 2 actual websites in all my time. One 5 years ago using PageMill 2.0 (I think it was 2.0), and one I just got done with using OmniWeb.

I like hand coding a lot more. I think I'll try BBEdit, but OmniWeb does a good job at formatting and colorizing the tags for me, to keep it all straight in my head. The only problem is OW likes to crash. That's the only reason I want to switch to BBEdit.

Now, I don't know anything but HTML, and even that is shaky, so I have no experience writing CSS or JavaScript or any other types of code used w/ webpages. I'd really like to learn, but first I need to know where these things can come in handy.