[oranjdisc]

I'm creating a web site that will feature a news/announcements style box in a floating frame, similar to those you see on k10k.net or www.surfstation.lu.

Instead of myself updating the news box each and every time the client wants to add something new, I was thinking there had to be a way for them to publish some text using a form, and have it appear in the site's news box without me lifting a finger.

Is ASP right for this? If so, anyone have a link to a tutorial, or web site that gives the basics for setting something like this up?

Thanks...

[Raman]

Originally posted by oranjdisc:
<STRONG>I'm creating a web site that will feature a news/announcements style box in a floating frame, similar to those you see on k10k.net or www.surfstation.lu.

Instead of myself updating the news box each and every time the client wants to add something new, I was thinking there had to be a way for them to publish some text using a form, and have it appear in the site's news box without me lifting a finger.

Is ASP right for this? If so, anyone have a link to a tutorial, or web site that gives the basics for setting something like this up?

Thanks...</STRONG>

All you need to do is this: Set up a form for the author to fill out with his/her text. The Form sends information to be saved on the webserver - doesn't matter what type of data store you use (formal database, xml file, text file, whatever). When someone opens up the news page, it reads the file or gets the data from the database and shows it to the end user.

Simple. Yes, you can use ASP if you'd like. If you need help with your ASP, PHP, HTML, SQL (pretty much anything but PERL and JSP cause I'm learning them now!) code then write me at osx@raman-sinha.com and I'll help you out.

[timster]

Pretty much any dynamic scripting language (like those mentioned above) will allow you to do that. But you need to see what platform your website is running on (OSX? WinNT?) - because that can ultimately determine what scripting language you use.

OSX can run PHP, JSP and Perl stuff. Theres also an bridge for ASP apps to run on unix web servers, but i wouldnt think the hassle of setting that up would be worth it.

ASP is a IIS specific feature.

-tim

[Millennium]

I'd use PHP for this myself, but ASP will work. Just remember that you can't really use ASP on anything but IIS; the other technologies will get the job done just as well, without locking you into a specific server/OS combination.

You can find a lot of tutorials at dmoz.org; check the Computers/Internet/Programming section for tutorials on lots of stuff.

[Raman]

You might also want to check out hotscripts.com as they have a ton of stuff (I'd say CRAP but some of it is actually good). There's probably a "application" that already does this so you might just have to change some settings in a script file and there you go.

[macvillage.net]

I would go for a perl script to do this, and here is why:

If you used a premade ASP script for a news like engine, it would save the news in a dat file and load an ASP script each time to process it. That's a lot of load.

Most perl scripts would save it as a html file so that you can just include that html file into your layout.


Thus load would be less with a perl script. Besides, in most cases ASP is just using more processor and RAM to perform similar functions as perl can, or at least that is what I have found. That is why I prefer PHP or perl over ASP anyday. But then again that is my opinion.

[oranjdisc]

Thanks for the help everyone. I've been looking into the PHP route, though I've never touched it before. Looks like I need to figure out all kinds of MySQL stuff....ugh.

Then again, I think I may go the Blogger route -- since it's all set up for stuff like this. But I'd like to learn it myself...

Thanks for the links/tips...

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by oranjdisc:
<STRONG>Thanks for the help everyone. I've been looking into the PHP route, though I've never touched it before. Looks like I need to figure out all kinds of MySQL stuff....ugh.

Then again, I think I may go the Blogger route -- since it's all set up for stuff like this. But I'd like to learn it myself...

Thanks for the links/tips...

</STRONG>

PHP, PHP, PHP. You'll be glad you did. A side advantage - once you do it once, you can reuse it to your heart's content. Not very difficult to figure out the MySQL stuff - once you have it and PHP installed, <A HREF="http://"http://phpmyadmin.sourceforge.net/"" TARGET=_blank>get a hold of PHPMyAdmin</A> for an easy-to-use web interface to MySQL. (Hint - pay close attention to setting up the initial permissions database in MySQL).

I've found "Core PHP Programming" by Leon Atkinson to be indispensable for help with the core of the language, both as a learning tool and as a handy reference. And just so you know, I'm moving every single one of my sites to a full database back-end. Makes life much easier, especially once you've written a portable back-end admin tool.

[Raman]

O.k. I'm assuming since the guy specifically said ASP that he is probably using IIS or something.

1. What he wants to do is very trivial.

2. It barely requires any horsepower. If you know enough about performance tuning and enough about each scripting language to be able to say it uses more ram or processing power then you probably know how to optimise your code so that it runs as fast in ANY scripting language.

3. Iff his admin is using NT then he might not want to install PHP or any other scripting language. If he's using UNIX then he can use PERL or JSP or PHP unless they want to pay out the wazoo for ASP capability.

4. macvillage.net - you're wrong - ASP can output to HTML - it's a freaking text file, what's the difference? if you implement it so that ASP takes the form, adds tags, converts it to HTML and then saves it as .html using the scripting filesystem object then what's the difference? you should maybe learn before you underestimate M$ languages.

5. dogzilla - what does code reusability have anything to do with PHP and not ASP?

ALL server-side scripting languages can easily do menial things like this. Once you start getting advanced you might look towards another scripting language.

Anyway, I work for the world's largest oil company doing ASP. While I prefer to use other scripting languages and real scripting languages like JSP, we do have many websites that handle hundreds of concurrent users pounding Oracle databases. All of the websites are ASP. OHMYGOD! I even did EDI XML on ASP! I better quit now before the whole thing implodes! hahhaha My buddy runs a very large and busy gambling website with THOUSANDS of CONCURRENT users on Windows 2000, ASP, and COM objects. Trust me, for what most people are doing, ASP is more than enough. The thing with PHP is that they try to stuff too much into a web page. Do you want to do OOP on a webpage? Shouldn't that be a COM or other type of object in a transactional package? I dunno. At least M$ tells you to use COM objects and separate the presentation, data acccess, business logic, and data layer. So does SUN. PHP? i dunno. I think there's a reason for the tomcat project. The top 2 webservers run ASP and JSP, respectively. That should tell you something.

Seriously folks, ASP is at least supported by a very large and evil company, as with JSP/Java. Large corporations like accountability. PHP doesn't have that even though it's useful for 99.99% of all script-kiddie websites.

Have fun.

[dogzilla]

Raman -

It sounds like you have some issues, buddy. I don't think I or anyone else said that PHP is the be-all end-all over ASP. That being said, there's little question (for me) that PHP is more accessible that ASP. I realize you have a big investment in ASP, but that doesn't make it everyone's solution. It's my feeling that the PHP/Apache/MySQL combination is stronger than ASP/IIS/some closed-source database, in terms of speed, community support, cost, and future viability (ie: *not* being at the mercy of Microsoft's "vision"). YMMV.

Code reusability: there's little difference between ASP and PHP in this. My point was that it's worth doing for *all* sites.

As far as script-kiddie: funny you mention this, given the *huge* number of security holes in IIS routinely exploited by said script-kiddies. Apache ain't perfect, but it sure ain't IIS. It's easy to create a PHP script that creates a huge security hole (the one you provided in another thread, for example), but you can do the same with ASP/IIS, not to mention all the built-in holes that come standard.

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: dogzilla ]

[timster]

It sounds like our friend Raman has had a knee-jerk reaction when someone apparently (or inadverently) bashed ASP in this thread and pulled out his "patented'" argument.

I have no complaints against ASP. Its a tool that gets the job done for many many corporations. Its the livelihood for many programmers, so it's a perfectly competent solution.

When people ask me what I recommend, I usually dont recommend ASP. Not because its made by MS (although indirectly) - not because it is/not capable of handling large websites. But more of those reasons:

1) its not free. PHP/JSP/Perl solutions are.
2) its tied into one operating system (which again, is not free)
3) it makes best use of an commercial database (access/sql) which again is not free.

4) its usually programmed in Visual Basic - which I personally dont like as a programming language. It doesnt really teach you the best programming concepts, and doesnt share the same programming syntax that's easily reused in other languages, such as C, C++, PHP and Java (note, i dont mean programming concepts, but the fundamental form of writing the language, using brackets, conditional statements, semicolons, etc. etc..

That aside. ASP/IIS has the advantage of easier administration and setup over PHP/MySQL/Apache, I'll certainly admit.

So.. its just a matter of reasons why I usually recommend PHP/MySQL/Apache to those who want to get started in dynamic web programming without having to outlay a bunch of cash.

Dont take my post as the final say on anything tho. People are free to have their own opinions.


-tim

[Raman]

Originally posted by timster:
<STRONG>It sounds like our friend Raman has had a knee-jerk reaction when someone apparently (or inadverently) bashed ASP in this thread and pulled out his "patented'" argument.
</STRONG>

Whatever, wiseguy. Next time try doing a little reading before opening your mouth.

[Raman]

dogzilla - you're just pissed becauase i did in about 5 lines and you did it in like 100. get over it & grow up.



[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: Raman ]

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: Raman ]

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by Raman:
<STRONG>dogzilla - you're just pissed becauase i did in about 5 lines and you did it in like 100. get over it & grow up.

</STRONG>

[slaps forehead] You're absolutely right! Why couldn't I have seen this before? Certainly *I* couldn't have copied example code directly from PHP's online manual - it takes a true coder of the highest caliber to do that! LOL!

I'll take the fact that you neatly sidestepped all of the substantive points in my post to mean that you agree with those.

Ultimately, the best tool is the one you're most comfortable with, be it ASP or PHP. But this fella was talking about using a precoded tool (Blogger) as a solution. That's certainly viable, but I think we can all agree that it wouldn't offer anywhere the same flexibility as coding it yourself. More upfront work, but opens up huge potential.

[Raman]

Originally posted by dogzilla:
<STRONG>

[slaps forehead] You're absolutely right! Why couldn't I have seen this before? Certainly *I* couldn't have copied example code directly from PHP's online manual - it takes a true coder of the highest caliber to do that! LOL!
</STRONG>

The code is from PHP Developers Cookbook. It contains "best practices". The people that wrote that book are very knowledgable - moreso than I on PHP. I tend to trust those that know better than me. It's not wrong to learn from the best of breed.

A real programmer learns from those that know better than him. Looks like you're not. Maybe that's why you don't understand what I'm talking about and making personal attacks. Fine. But before you start judging code, take a look at your own site. At least I knwo how to hand-code my HTML. I'm glad you know how to [barely] know how to use GoLive.

So far most of the hot-shots in this thread are talking about the fact that ASP is not free. That's a weak argument. If you're worried about price then buy a PeeCee and run Linux. That's probably the most cost-effective solution.

Like I said, I'm not defending ASP but the arguments being thrown around here are just like Mac vs. PC arguments. You all have heard PC people talk out of their a$$ and you've laughed and chuckled because you know they're just ignorant. It's rearing it's ugly head here.

Like I said - show me a security hole in the script cause I'd like to see it. Just because you might have wrote you own (you forgot the &lt;table&gt; and &lt;/table&gt; tags, by the way). Sound like dog's talking around my challenge.

Also, I never said that IIS wasn't like swiss cheese. Have you even been to CERT's website? If you have then you might see that you're only hearing negative things about M$ products. There's TONS of holes in even our holy OSX that Apple hasn't even addressed. That's downright pathetic. They're taking M$ stance on it by side-skirting the issues.

So - what argument would you like me to address next?

[dogzilla]

Raman -

Last post on this topic for me, as diminishing returns are kicking in.

1) As far as my site - all I can say is that I use whatever tool I feel is appropriate. While you may not like GoLive (your prerogative) I think it's fair to say that hand-coding doesn't exempt you from errors. I think I actually pointed out an error on your site to you didn't I? Something about disappearing type? I think this thinking that WYSIWYG editors are somehow less "ballsy" and their users less knowledgeable to be laughable.

And btw - our site has won a local award and our clients consistently mention it as one of the things that made them choose us over the competition. I understand that you think this little attack will really get my goat, but frankly I'm extremely pleased at how our site works, and am much more interested in what my existing and potential clients think.

2) Concerning the script: take another look at the code. The "&lt;table&gt;" and &lt;/table&gt;" tags are most definitely there. Check the HTML section. The script I wrote "jails" the browser to the current directory at the top level, makes a distinction between files and directories (and allows the use of different icons for each), and allows for browsing subdirectories from a single script (ie: no need to place the script in subdirectories as with other solutions I've seen). That's why it's 100 lines long.

I saw the exact same code you posted in "Core PHP programming" - you seemed to be claiming that I was upset that you had come up with a creative 5-line solution to a problem that took me many more: I guess I must have misinterpreted "you're just pissed becauase i did in about 5 lines and you did it in like 100"

3) As far as potential security holes: the script you posted shows dot-files, including the up-one-level ".." link (which works) and (presumably) .htaccess files. I'd consider both of these security holes, which is also partly why I wrote the script I posted: it hides all dot files and allows you to selectively hide others (say, .js files another potential security hole).

4) As far as ASP - I'm really not that bothered one way or another. Please reread my post - I said that for me there's little question that PHP/Apache/MySQL is a better solution, in terms of speed, community support, cost, and not being at Microsoft's mercy in terms of future developments. I'm not sure I understand your counterargument in terms of price (Why would you buy a Linux PC if you already have a Mac? Or if you're using an external host?), but I think the other issues are still extant.

But whatever - YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary), to each his/her own, etc.

5) CERT - funny, I hadn't really visited CERT much since back when I first started using FreeBSD. I just went there and did a search for Darwin, OSX, and Mac. Didn't find anything OSX-specific: did I do a bad search? I did a comparison search for IIS, and ASP, and PHP though. Interesting results.