[screamingFit]

If you have a minute, could you please check out: http://www.screamingfit.com?

Although this is a photography/design portfolio site (how innovative of me!), don't rake it too hard!

Please post comments here or on the discussion board of the site.

Thanks,
s'fit

[funkboy]

...darn, I just crashed, and I was about to post my reply... time to type it from scratch again...

Overall, I like the site! Very nice design!
Here are some observations I've made, menial as they may be
* the first thing that hit me when I brought up the first page was "Mystery Meat." The four circles on the front page would be an example of mystery meat navigation, something coined by the people at Web Pages That Suck. Click that link for a good article about that navigation (I wouldn't say the circles are a bad thing altogether, since the rest of the site has text to click on, so the mystery meat doesn't extend beyond the front page )

* the first link I clicked on from the main page was "photography," which logically brought up a page of photos. In the main nav text at the top, it had Page 1, 2, 3, and 4 - this threw me off, as I was wondering whether these pages were all photography related or not - maybe put some sort of photography heading above them in the bar, or even sneak the word photography behind the letters "Page 1, 2, 3, 4?"

* Discussion - the page background is white! the rest of the site is orange! changing the bgcolor to the same orange would tie in the discussion forums much better with the rest of the site.

* Design - Not sure how long you've been doing design, but if you have a bigger portfolio, show it off!
...and is that Webasto web site's front page, 2x2 matrix inspired by a certain fruit-themed computer company?

Overall, very nice site!

[Raman]

Originally posted by screamingFit:
<STRONG>If you have a minute, could you please check out: http://www.screamingfit.com?

Although this is a photography/design portfolio site (how innovative of me!), don't rake it too hard!

Please post comments here or on the discussion board of the site.

Thanks,
s'fit</STRONG>

Asthetically I like it. Functionally, it depends on your clientelle. You are judged by your business website looks. If it looks too artsy or teh people in charge of picking out which design company can't figure out how to navigate it, you might be out of luck.

Overall it looks like a good "my life" kinda site. But for business, I'd probably set up a more functional one - most peoople that make decisions in corporate are not web savvy. this is how i did it:

raman-sinha.com/coastaldev/index.html

i think it looks good but is navigable by anyone.

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by Raman:
<STRONG>But for business, I'd probably set up a more functional one - most peoople that make decisions in corporate are not web savvy. this is how i did it:

raman-sinha.com/coastaldev/index.html

i think it looks good but is navigable by anyone.</STRONG>

The site does look good, but has some technical probs. The type in the center frame gets cut off on the right and bottom. This happens in Internet Explorer 5 for MacOS 9. If I were in charge of hiring a web designer, I'd view this as a big minus.

Also, Why did you use frames? Your design could have been easily accomplished with tables, and would have been more flexible and browser-friendly. Not to mention easier to manage. The nav links reload the entire page, so you miss the biggest (only?) advantage of frames.

[Raman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dogzilla:

"The site does look good"
Thanks..

"but has some technical probs."
uh oh! fortunately these are by design.

" The type in the center frame gets cut off on the right and bottom. This happens in Internet Explorer 5 for MacOS 9. If I were in charge of hiring a web designer, I'd view this as a big minus."

This is by design. I wanted to simulate a scrolling text field without annoying anyone. It's not important text, which is why i made it very close to white. it's kinda there as filler. If i wanted everyone to see all the words then i'd have probaby made it light orange and made the type smaller - and i'd probably not use b.s. buzzwords!!!

"Also, Why did you use frames? Your design could have been easily accomplished with tables, and would have been more flexible and browser-friendly. Not to mention easier to manage. "

Most browsers handle frames well. I don't see what you mean by more flexible. The first page has nothing but tables in teh center frame. When you click on a link to get specific information you go to the 2nd page with the IFrame in the middle.

"The nav links reload the entire page, so you miss the biggest (only?) advantage of frames"

The nav links only reload the center page. If you can show me how I can keep the page in the smack center of a browser window using tables as a user resizes I'll do it. Sure I can use javascript and check the innner height inner width and dynamically size my table that way but the only way to do what I did is by using frames. Most browsers don't do table height="100%" as well as table width="100%"

The reason teh nav links reload the entire page on the detail is so that the src for the iframe changes and and a different image at the top gets loaded (indicating which detail page you're at). This is how many sites work when NOT using frames. Think of it - macnn's header and footers are the same throughout the forums but get regenerated on each click.

The whole site is 2 pages + 1 page for each "topic" button to the left. If i want to add more content, i just create another page with the page with the background. If i wanted to really get crazy i could have used a total of 3 pages and text files for the actual content dynamically loaded as i did in abc.asp at allcovered.com

.sure i could do all of it with javascript but i don't like too much client-side code.

anyway. thanks for the constructive criticism. if you know how i can keep that frame in the center at all times NOT using frames i'd sure like to know. i hate using frames like the next guy...

[screamingFit]

Originally posted by funkboy:
<STRONG>* the first thing that hit me when I brought up the first page was "Mystery Meat." The four circles on the front page would be an example of mystery meat navigation...</STRONG>

Point taken.

<STRONG>* the first link I clicked on from the main page was "photography," which logically brought up a page of photos. In the main nav text at the top, it had Page 1, 2, 3, and 4 - this threw me off...</STRONG>

Y'know, I caught this too. I have no other excuse than I was tired and cranky and didn't feel like making it better. Poor excuse at that but I was at my breaking point with my 7th reboot of the day. It will be fixed over the weekend, though.

<STRONG>* Discussion - the page background is white! the rest of the site is orange! </STRONG>

Agreed. I was thinking though that orange is a pretty horrible color (but my trademark!) to view text on top of. Couldn't think of a good contrasting color for the text. Any ideas?

<STRONG>* Design - Not sure how long you've been doing design, but if you have a bigger portfolio, show it off!
...and is that Webasto web site's front page, 2x2 matrix inspired by a certain fruit-themed computer company? </STRONG>

Been doing design off and on for, sheesh, 10 years. Most of my stuff isn't computer based, though, and haven't gotten around to scan it in. I have so many lame excuses, don't I? And the matrix, though not thinking of Apple at the time, was probably so ingrained in my head I wouldn't doubt if I did it that way subliminaly. ACK! The RDF extends to web sites, too!

<STRONG>Overall, very nice site!</STRONG>

Thanks!!

Originally posted by Raman:
<STRONG>Asthetically I like it. Functionally, it depends on your clientelle. You are judged by your business website looks. If it looks too artsy or teh people in charge of picking out which design company can't figure out how to navigate it, you might be out of luck.

Overall it looks like a good "my life" kinda site. But for business, I'd probably set up a more functional one - most peoople that make decisions in corporate are not web savvy. this is how i did it:

raman-sinha.com/coastaldev/index.html

i think it looks good but is navigable by anyone. </STRONG>

Thanks for the input. [long rant]I guess I should of prefaced my original post by stating that when I do design work, I do very little of it. Meaning, it's not my job, I'm not out to gain wealth from it, I'm not out to get new clients and I wouldn't do work for a company that couldn't figure it out (low patience level). So, I guess, it is a "my life" kind of site, in a way. If you see it and you want me to shoot some picks for your company picnic, cool. I'm not actively promoting, don't even have meta tags for search engines on the page, nor submitted to any search engine. This is a hobby of mine, and sometimes, it buys me some toys (just got a new iBook with the proceeds of the Webasto site!). In the same respect, I do hope some people see it and at least like a picture or two and maybe drop me a hello.[/long rant]

I don't want what I just posted to come across defensive, Raman, because I do appreciate your comments. Ultimately, it was my own fault for not really stating in the site check request exactly what the site was for and who it's geared to.

Originally posted by dogzilla:
<STRONG>The site does look good, but has some technical probs. The type in the center frame gets cut off on the right and bottom. This happens in Internet Explorer 5 for MacOS 9. If I were in charge of hiring a web designer, I'd view this as a big minus.</STRONG>

AHEM! I thought this thread was about me!

Thanks for the input folks!
-s'fit

EDIT: Tag fix

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: screamingFit ]

[funkboy]

Originally posted by screamingFit:
<STRONG>
Agreed. I was thinking though that orange is a pretty horrible color (but my trademark!) to view text on top of. Couldn't think of a good contrasting color for the text. Any ideas?</STRONG>

Well, I'd make the background orange, but keep the background of the main text areas white.

And yes, my Mac's been crashing a lot recently, too... that's one of the most annoying things... Mac OS X will be well received here!

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by Raman:
This is by design. I wanted to simulate a scrolling text field without annoying anyone. It's not important text, which is why i made it very close to white. it's kinda there as filler. If i wanted everyone to see all the words then i'd have probaby made it light orange and made the type smaller - and i'd probably not use b.s. buzzwords!!!

Nope, I'm almost certain you didn't intend this effect. Here's a screenshot.

The nav links only reload the center page. If you can show me how I can keep the page in the smack center of a browser window using tables as a user resizes I'll do it. Sure I can use javascript and check the innner height inner width and dynamically size my table that way but the only way to do what I did is by using frames. Most browsers don't do table height="100%" as well as table width="100%"

Try this:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1"face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial">code:</font><HR><pre><font size=1 face=courier>
&lt;html&gt;
&lt;body bgcolor=<font color = red>"#<font color = blue>666699</font>"</font>&gt;
&lt;div align=<font color = red>"center"</font>&gt;
&lt;table width=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>95</font>%"</font> height=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>95</font>%"</font> border=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>0</font>"</font>&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;
&lt;td align=<font color = red>"center"</font> valign=<font color = red>"middle"</font>&gt;
&lt;table width=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>66</font>%"</font> height=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>10</font>"</font> bgcolor=<font color = red>"#DDDDDD"</font> border=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>0</font>"</font> cellpadding=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>10</font>"</font> cellspacing=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>10</font>"</font>&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;
&lt;td align=<font color = red>"center"</font> valign=<font color = red>"middle"</font> bgcolor=<font color = red>"#BBBBBB"</font> width=<font color = red>"<font color = blue>33</font>%"</font>&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Nav <font color = blue>1</font>&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Nav <font color = blue>2</font>&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Nav <font color = blue>3</font>&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Nav <font color = blue>4</font>&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;td align=<font color = red>"left"</font> valign=<font color = red>"top"</font>&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;
&lt;/body&gt;
&lt;/html&gt;
</font>[/code]
I think MacNN uses a similiar strategy for this page. Hope that helps. (There's a minor prob with Netscape in that it doesn't draw the table color in gaps between cells - you can get around that if you don't mind nesting tables)

As for the link stuff - maybe I need to take another look at how your site works. It appeared to me that when i clicked on a nav item, the content *and* the nav reloaded. I have and still do use frames, but when I use them, I usually keep the nav static and change the content. Maybe your site does that and I just missed it.

One great thing about your site is the cleanliness and effective use of whitespace. I think this approach is rare on the web and really dramatic when done well, as I think it is on your site and on th eone that started this thread - although I guess in that case it's "orangespace".

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: dogzilla ]

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: dogzilla ]

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by screamingFit:
<STRONG>Agreed. I was thinking though that orange is a pretty horrible color (but my trademark!) to view text on top of. Couldn't think of a good contrasting color for the text. Any ideas?.....AHEM! I thought this thread was about me! </STRONG>

LOL. OK, here's my take on your site: I like it a lot. I don't subscribe to the school that calls your nav "mystery meat". My clients (and potential clients) are designers/ad agencies, and while they don't want to fight against a site, they also like a bit of mystery and discovery in a site. A site like yours isn't meant to convey information directly by presenting it as text, but rather indirectly through its design.

I like the nav, and especially like the news item on the home page (although you should make these links - the news is most useful to returning viewers who've already explored and want to go straight to what's new.

I think the previous suggestion about the photography nav is good - differentiate the navigation within the photo section from the nav to other sections.

I agree with Raman's point about the portfolio: show more things. Even if you want to keep it to just 3 items, have them rotate randomly every time that page reloads. (PHP is excellent for this, btw)

Didn't get a chance to see the boards - they were down when I visited.

As far as contrasting color - oddly, we chose the same orange for our studio when we started a couple years back. We use the color on our website - your point about contrast is well taken. Check out our nav frame - I think those colors work reasonably well. But white on orange is tough on the eyes when set full length.

[Raman]

Originally posted by dogzilla:<STRONG>

Try this:
I think MacNN uses a similiar strategy for this page. Hope that helps. (There's a minor prob with Netscape in that it doesn't draw the table color in gaps between cells - you can get around that if you don't mind nesting tables)

As for the link stuff - maybe I need to take another look at how your site works. It appeared to me that when i clicked on a nav item, the content *and* the nav reloaded. I have and still do use frames, but when I use them, I usually keep the nav static and change the content. Maybe your site does that and I just missed it.

One great thing about your site is the cleanliness and effective use of whitespace. I think this approach is rare on the web and really dramatic when done well, as I think it is on your site and on th eone that started this thread - although I guess in that case it's "orangespace".

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: dogzilla ]

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: dogzilla ]</STRONG>

EEEEK!! that's horrible! I wonder why it is cutting off. I'm glad it's not a production site or id' fire myself. thanks for pointing out the cut-off text. looks like there is a padding problem or something. on windows it looks fine. I'll probably put the contents into a table and set it to liek 90% width to be lazy and not address the problem directly

I will try that code. if it works then you kid's face might show up on the background collage somewhere

No, my page reloads teh whole page when you click a button but since i've preloaded the iimages (a neat trick because i get you to mouseover and read the "intros" to each section while the images are downloading).. it goes a little faster on tests i've conducted.

Like i said, i could just use javascript/DOM to change teh src attributes of the iframe and top image but i was getting tired of coding one thing for NN and something else for IE so i said "to hell with it" and just did it serverside. my rollovers dont' even work in netscape.

About the whitespace - i really like alot of whitespace (orangespace is good, too ) but the danger there is that i'm introducing my own tastes into a website for others - and what's the #1 rule about webdesign? he he heh.. that's right "You are not the user". anyway, i've seen some otehr design sites and if they try to cram too much information on 1 page it's hard for me to keep focus on what they're trying to tell me because it's like they're trying to tell me everythign on 1 page, which is fine, but i like a little order, personally.

anyyway, thanks for pointing out the error. i'll fix it before it goes "public".

now, back from OT:

If you like orange, then keep orange. if you want to see an ugly color scheme that works check out allcovered.com (one of my gigs). now THAT's ugly but those are teh corporate colors.

I think ANY color looks good. seriously. what looks bad is when people use the wrong colors together.

now i don't have a creative bone in my body but i have learned from looking at real sites to only use 2 or 3 fonts MAX and chose colors that look good together and follow-through with those colors so that the site is continuous. and also, dont' get too gratuitous with graphics and junk. i personally like a site that is clean and easy to navigage.

one thing i do (and you're gonna call me weird) is i almost coss my eyes to make the whole page blurry. if it looks good like that then it will look good sharp. i guess it's kind of like someone stepping back to see "the whole picture" or something.

have you seen some of the sample templates in macromedia dreamweaver? they use some funky background colors including (ahem...) orange. the sites all look great (certainly better than what someone like me could have done on my own) but they all look a little bit off the beaten path. which is good.

anway, i think if you fix some of the non-flowing aspects of your site, it will rock.

you know what i was thinking - because the term "mystery meat" is sticking in my head - is since each button is the same thing why not make them animated very very very slightly - like making a dark orange dot in teh center of each blink slowly so one doesn't notice unless they look.. or something.. i dunno. i' m not creative.. you are..

[screamingFit]

Well, I took some time out yesterday and updated some of things brought up here.

1) The news on the main page is clickable where applicable - should probably make them look like links, though.

2) The Photography section now uses a standard site menu with a separate menu for navigating the picture pages.

3) The forums are now all orange with white used for the posts.

I've still yet scanned in some other design work. It's out in storage about an hour away and I haven't had the time to go get it. I do have some recent designs available to post now that are, shall we say, "risque" done for a local fetish place. I've posted one that wasn't bad (Hellbound) but at the warning of my provider in conversations about my work, no boobz or seriously suggestive photos - well, that's about all of my work! It's not like this stuff is porno shots - it's fairly tasteful and arty-still they won't budge on their policies. Maybe it just scared them too much - nipple torture and PVC pictures will tend to do that to some people! I guess I'm just stuck with my tame "landscape" pictures - maybe I'll throw in a still life picture of a bowl of fruit, too (no bananas, of course)!

In regards to orange, specifically #FF6600. Yes, it's been done before - a lot - but you have to understand who screamingFit is:

- orange hair (usually - sometimes red, purple or blue)
- wears a lot of orange clothing (wearing a bright orange tunic as I type)
- orange is a "screamingFit" type of color - orange kind of emplies, "ARGGGHHH!"
- my business cards are mainly orange - have been for years
- orange is one of those "neat", "weird" sounding words (say it slow-the way it comes out and the way your lips form the syllables - just weird!)
- I like orange
- #FF6600 is one of the better "web safe" oranges

Raman: I agree that the main "mystery meat" is boring - some animation would look pretty neat there - like a sonar blip thinghy (extremely technical description, I know).

Again, thanks all for your insights and comments!

-s'fit

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by screamingFit:
<STRONG>I do have some recent designs available to post now that are, shall we say, "risque" done for a local fetish place. I've posted one that wasn't bad (Hellbound) but at the warning of my provider in conversations about my work, no boobz or seriously suggestive photos - well, that's about all of my work! It's not like this stuff is porno shots - it's fairly tasteful and arty-still they won't budge on their policies. </STRONG>

I hate it when ISPs do this kind of stuff. I have a good friend who did box cover designs for a porno movie house out in Las Vegas, and he got a bunch of grief from 2 different ISPs over his portfolio.

I'll tell you the same thing I told him - if you want, you're welcome to put your portfolio page on my servers (I have my own servers connected via SDSL). I could set up a virtual domain like screamingfit.isaka.net and you could take folks there for just your portfolio page. If you do it in a single full-width/height frame, none of your visitors would even know they went to a different address.

And before anyone else asks, no I'm not going to extend this offer to anyone else, so please don't ask.

[screamingFit]

Thanks for the offer. I'm actually in the process of looking at moving to a different, more "enlightened" provider so if I give up, I'll let you know. From what I've seen on some iTools sites, I might be able to get away with posting these on Apple's servers.

And, if we do decide to do this, I will pay you something for your trouble - I insist.

Thanks again,
-s'fit

[funkboy]

Heh, I liked what was said earlier, "There no bad colors, only bad color combos." Great way of putting it!

I won't ask people to critique my own website in this thread (especially since I'm tooling around with a new redesign) , but I too agree cleanliness and white/orange/xcolor-space can make a web site really great. At least one place to look for the absolute reverse of this thinking is X10 website - however, this site doesn't show good design by plunking a lot of stuff in it, but rather shows possibly some of the worst design on the internet.

I actually wrote them a nicely worded e-mail highlighting a few of the larger points of worry about their web site (where, or where, to begin?!) , but have yet to receive anything back... they must be too busy checking their multitudes of spy cameras that are monitoring, uh, the baby's room... uh huh...

Hmm, I have an idea... how about making the circles, when clicked on, change into 'screaming' mouths, eat up the cursor, and then spit it out into a nipple torture device, where the index finger will be sucked dry? This may have to wait until Dogzilla's server, eh?

[screamingFit]

Originally posted by funkboy:
<STRONG>Hmm, I have an idea... how about making the circles, when clicked on, change into 'screaming' mouths, eat up the cursor, and then spit it out into a nipple torture device, where the index finger will be sucked dry? This may have to wait until Dogzilla's server, eh? </STRONG>

Now that's just dumb. Any designer worth their fat knows that the finger should be bitten hard as to draw blood and not sucked in the fashion you state. Then that finger should be put...

Oh, never mind you piece of garbage! Some people just don't get it! Come back when you've got a clue, slave!

Whoops. Sorry about that. Sometimes I get kind of worked up talking about this stuff...

-s'fit

[opallaser]

Asthetically I like it. Functionally, it depends on your clientelle. You are judged by your business website looks. If it looks too artsy or teh people in charge of picking out which design company can't figure out how to navigate it, you might be out of luck.

Overall it looks like a good "my life" kinda site. But for business, I'd probably set up a more functional one - most peoople that make decisions in corporate are not web savvy. this is how i did it:

Thought i'd post some links to some of the worlds better web design agencys (in my opinion of course).

www.razorfish.com
www.organic.com
www.egomedia.com
www.kioken.com
www.futurefarmers.com
www.preloaded.com
www.hi-res.net

There's many more of course but that's a start.

Edit : Fixed links. (I think)

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: opallaser ]