[dogzilla]

I've used GoLive since it was Cyberstudio 1.0, and I've grown accustomed to its approach - it fits well with my print background (and Quark experience). I've found Dreamweaver interesting, and have checked it out a couple times since it was released. I didn't particularly like the interface, though some features were pretty cool. In the end, I stuck with GoLive and developed some pretty full-featured sites with it.

However, recently I've noticed more and more problems with GoLive. Specifically, some of the DHTML code it generates (specifically the code for animating layers), isn't designed to work on any browsers besides Internet Explorer and Netscape - and it doesn't. I can hand-write code that does the same thing and works in all browsers, *and* degrades gracefully. Dreamweaver has some support for animating layers, but there are extensions available that do exactly what GoLive layer actions do, and support all browsers I've tested.

Now, this isn't so bad in and of itself - no editor is perfect. But the same problems applies to several other issues with GoLive. What I find really troublesome is that I went on to Adobe's support boards and posted the issues - and the response was one of utter apathy. The impression I got was that GoLive's users (and at least one engineer I had email discussions with) aren't at all bothered by the fact that their code doesn't work on anything other than Netscape and Explorer, and certainly they have no stated intention of fixing the problems or even acknowledging them.

Now, I understand that Netscape and Explorer account for the overwhelming majority of the browser market right now. But if something like Opera (which is supposedly one of the most standards-compliant browsers currently available) can't run GoLive's code, then the indication seems pretty strong that GoLive is producing non-compliant code. Especially if I can write code by hand that *does* work, and if I can create code with Dreamweaver that also works fine.

In light of all this, does anyone have any opinions on whether GoLive is worth holding on to? Dreamweaver's interface isn't my first choice, but other features (such as accessibility checker, split-page code/visual editor, online DHTML/HTML reference, excellent PHP integration with an online PHP reference, support for templates, and incredible extensibility) are really appealing. I already own both - it's just a matter of spending the time to get to know Dreamweaver vs. the intimate knowledge I already have of GoLive.


What do you folks think?

[wclarkson]

Go w/ dreamweaver. It kicks butt!!!! Does everything you want it to do. and sooooooooooo much more.

[daimoni]

.

[dogzilla]

daimoni -

I agree with you about BBEdit - it definitely rocks and I spend a big portion of my time in it (better than 50% of my web dev time). However, I tend to initiate site design with a wysiwyg editor - especially since I usually collaborate with my straight designer wife/business partner, and she's not comfortable designing in BBEdit. Plus, it's quicker to rough out multiple design directions for the client to choose form with wysiwyg editors. So we'll usually intiate in a wysiwyg editor and tidy things up in BBEdit (or pico, but *never* vi. I'm not into S&M.)

Actually, this is another point in Dreaweaver's favor - its code is *much* easier to deal with in BBEdit, since you don't have to wade through tons of CS* tags and whatnot. I think I'm starting to convince myself here.

BTW - daimoni - do you use GREP much? If so, what's a good reference? While GREP is great when it works, I often find my grep search/replaces running wild into some weird mecha-godzilla world where nothing makes much sense. Clearly, I haven't got the grep cojones to wrassle them into line yet. I've heard that there's a good O'Reilly book on grep - any suggestions? Especially free ones?

[godzookie2k]

Wow, I'm impressed that you can get Golive generated code to work in netscape at all. I'm from a print background, and, while fluent in HTML I prefer to see what I'm working on as I do it as opposed to looking at HTML code, so THATS why I use a WYSIWYG editor and then I ship it off to BBedit land for cleanup. For this, Dreamweaver rocks my world. That and the cleaner code it generates than Golive and "view code while designing" or whatever they call it. I also have MAJOR problems w/ javascripts from golive working on all platforms AND browsers. Its a rare occurance when I can get a page to render on all platforms/browsers correctly. I have a hatred for doing multiple versions (though you gatta do what you gatta do) and Dreamweaver cuts this necessity down. Dreamweaver/Macromedia's interface is definately butt ugly, but hey, I can get used to anything (cough, osx, cough ) ) Dreamweavers' help boards are also a much more useful source than golive's. did I mention Dreamweavers' kickin code reference and help system? incredible (goes for flash 5 too) ahh well. Enough love for DW for tonight...

Nick

[kernel_panic]

I'm with you Dogzilla. I've been using GoLive since it was CyberStudio, and I like it a lot.

If Adobe could do the "UltraDev" thing without upping the RAM requirement by 30MB, I would be a very happy man.

I was very pleased that version 5 stopped "helping" me with my code.

Yes Adobe, I meant to type the "&" not "& amp;"

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: kernel_panic ]

[timster]

I normally code directly in Pepper. I usually know what I need to do before I start the website, so I dont need to do a lot of prototyping, and I find that building HTML chunks and web conpoments are just as fast as mocking them up in DW then cleaning htem up.

But at work, the content development team uses DW, and they like it better than any other WYSIWYG editor they've used. Templates are really nice, including libraries. So it works good for them.

I find that DW generates fairly good code. Not as tight as if I would write it myself, but its been good enough.

But I still believe that nothing beats hand coding.

Forced down the WYSIWYG path, I'd probably pick DW.

[funkboy]

FireWorks, DreamWeaver, and a piece of paper are my killer combo
Drawing up a rough layout in pen is still necessary (or at least a very good idea... agree?) , but then I'll draw it up in FireWorks, export individual slices, and then attach them all up in Dreamweaver and tweak by hand... but I don't use BBEdit.

I don't want to sound like an advertisement, but I will say I use my own word processor, New Tricks, to edit my code - I'd be very interested in anyone using it and suggesting any changes that could make it work better for web development... I use it for simple PHP editing and such, and find that it really does all that I want it to do, and will run on pretty much any computer I'm at... anyone have any ideas to improve the program? (contact me off-list probably)

[opallaser]

If you know how to code DHTML that works in all browsers - do it. Don't rely on any of the WYSIWYG editors to do it for you. That goes for Javascript and CSS tags as well. They will all help you out but if you don't know how to do it then it won't ever be perfect. I'm a designer. I do all my layouts in GoLive (after mocking them up in Photoshop) and then collaborate with the back end guys i work with to add stuff like DHTML and database links etc. Never use GoLive's actions - they are horrible. Dreamweavers are better but can still have problems with little things like pre-loading your rollover images etc

[Simon Mundy]

Hey Dogzilla,

Stick with GoLive for a bit longer... if only for nostalgia!

I've found it excellent for getting ideas and layouts into action ASAP, and its interface is a little nicer than Dreamweaver's.

I agree with everyone here about writing your own javascripts, because I hate GoLive's actions.

But 'clean code'... that's a subjective one. I've found tinkering with the web tags option a bonus - you can add/delete tags, update tag defaults, change the hierarchy/indents for tags etc etc.

After a page has been designed, cleaned and re-written using the rewrite tag, then it's taken into BBEdit for implementation with Javascript/ASP/Php etc.

Finally, back to GoLive to organise the site, check links and upload to the server.

Personally speaking, I'd say it's a pretty good team effort with those apps. It seems to me a lot of GoLive IS customisable. I mean, the browser checking/DOM javascripts can easily be updated and resaved into your golive->extensions folder (I haven't got it open at the moment so I don't know if that's exactly right).

Happy coding Dogzilla

[Raman]

Originally posted by dogzilla:
<STRONG>I've used GoLive since it was Cyberstudio 1.0, and I've grown accustomed to its approach - it fits well with my print background (and Quark experience). I've found Dreamweaver interesting, and have checked it out a couple times since it was released. I didn't particularly like the interface, though some features were pretty cool. In the end, I stuck with GoLive and developed some pretty full-featured sites with it.

However, recently I've noticed more and more problems with GoLive. Specifically, some of the DHTML code it generates (specifically the code for animating layers), isn't designed to work on any browsers besides Internet Explorer and Netscape - and it doesn't. I can hand-write code that does the same thing and works in all browsers, *and* degrades gracefully. Dreamweaver has some support for animating layers, but there are extensions available that do exactly what GoLive layer actions do, and support all browsers I've tested.

In light of all this, does anyone have any opinions on whether GoLive is worth holding on to? Dreamweaver's interface isn't my first choice, but other features (such as accessibility checker, split-page code/visual editor, online DHTML/HTML reference, excellent PHP integration with an online PHP reference, support for templates, and incredible extensibility) are really appealing. I already own both - it's just a matter of spending the time to get to know Dreamweaver vs. the intimate knowledge I already have of GoLive.


What do you folks think?</STRONG>

C'mon man! You are a hard-coder. I KNOW even if you used Dreamweaver (which I use for quick mockups) you'd end up recoding your functions.

I've said it before and i'll say it again: Dreamweaver (and Ultradev) is for designers that dont' know and don't want to know and don't have the time to learn how to code. The code works in NN and IE but it's terrible. there are arrays and loops like there was no tomorrow! Macromedia says that 'some people can read dreamweavers code and learn how to code' - yeah RIGHT - if you're on crack! Put one little rollover on the page and see how much code it spits out. Don't even think of using the email verifier - all it does is look for characters and a @ in there - THAT'S IT! The most basic internet function (form validation) and it can't do it right. I ended up writing my own regexp that can kick it's butt.

Anyway, i use dreamweaver and fireworks but i end up hand coding all my code as well as when dreamweaver annoys me. i usually keep it in half and half mode. I'm trying to get more into photoshop so i'll probalby try golive. but seriously, the only reason i'd use it is for quick comps. put it this way, my personal and buisness website, as well as all websites that i've done professionally were written by me, not dreamweaver.