[davecom]

Edited to reflect the turn this thread has taken.

[00101001]

Hey, count me in. I'm not sure how much I can contribute now -- but I'm learning...

[davecom]

I just want to clarify that there is no project yet. I'm simply checking for interest.

[kupan787]

Originally posted by davecom:
Anybody interested in developing an open source MSWord compatible word processor written in Cocoa to leverage OS X's built in text system?

There are others, but they're only free in their non-full featured versions. Anyway, if you're interested in starting a project you can either post or email me at david@kopecsoft.com .

Is the word file format open? How would you now how to read and write it? If you have this info, let me know as I would love to help out.

Ben

[dogwood]

Word's .doc format are closed proprietary and that is the major part of the problem, for 3rd party developers trying - archive compatibility with MS Word.

I would suggest that maybe it would be better to take a GNU projects written in C or C++ that all ready has the bulk of it developed.

Have a look at

http://www.gnu.org
http://www.abisource.com/
http://www.koffice.org/

Then simple write a Objective-C wrapper for the applications that way you save yourself allot of work. The concept is much like the Chimera navigator project which is a objective-c wrapper to the UNIX mozilla code base.

[davecom]

Surely any project would build off of an old one in some aspect, but wrapping objective-c around legacy code for the entire application is probably not as good an idea architecturally as just producing a new application in Objective-C and wrapping just around the MSWord library.

[dogwood]

Any open source word processor must be able to open .doc world files. This is a very difficult thing, as MS keeps changing the format, and keeps it a secret. So at least I would stand on the shoulders of giants. Saving you the pain of reverse engineering the MS .doc files.

Secondly, it may be better to make a Aqua version AbiWord, as it is a strong open source editor with a good community. You would be able to get more people interested in developing for an established gnu projects like AbiWord, then going out and starting from nothing. Much like OpenOffice crew is currently doing to bring OepnOffice to the Mac.

It must also be noted that the market for an open source and free office suit will be limited as soon as OpenOffice for OSX is available. I will be switching as soon it goes public.

[markphip]

Originally posted by davecom:
Anybody interested in developing an open source MSWord compatible word processor written in Cocoa to leverage OS X's built in text system?

There are others, but they're only free in their non-full featured versions. Anyway, if you're interested in starting a project you can either post or email me at david@kopecsoft.com .

Okito Composer is nearing 1.0 status. It is not open source or free, but it is a Cocoa word processor. They claim to be working on MS Word support, maybe that would be something they would be willing to open up as an open source project in order to gain more support?

http://www.okito.net/composer/

I have been very impressed with this product and would love to see it get broader acceptance and perhaps have more resources poured into it.

I just do not have much confidence that OpenOffice will amount to much as a Mac port.

In the end, I am just not sure if it is possible to get 100% MS Word support, and anything less will greatly diminish the value of the product.

Mark

[dogwood]

Okito Composer is a closed source, and it looks like it will stay that way, there is now way that their going to give up their investment in code for free.

Does anyone know if there was an Next Step Word Process, it most likely be open source, in some way, making a foundation to work on.

----------------------------------------------
I just do not have much confidence that OpenOffice will amount to much as a Mac port
-----------------------------------------------

I would not be so sure, it is most likely that Apple is working with Sun, and the OpenOffice mac porting team. OpenOffice will become a force in Office, both on UNIX/NT

[markphip]

Originally posted by dogwood:
Okito Composer is a closed source, and it looks like it will stay that way, there is now way that their going to give up their investment in code for free.

Does anyone know if there was an Next Step Word Process, it most likely be open source, in some way, making a foundation to work on.

----------------------------------------------
I just do not have much confidence that OpenOffice will amount to much as a Mac port
-----------------------------------------------

I would not be so sure, it is most likely that Apple is working with Sun, and the OpenOffice mac porting team. OpenOffice will become a force in Office, both on UNIX/NT

I share your OpenOffice sentiments, and I did state that Okito is not open source. My thinking is that the most difficult part of this is going to be MS Word compatability. Perhaps someone would should start an open source project to convert the .doc format to/from RTFD. Which I believe is the file format used by Okito Composer, as well as Text Edit.

If that could be accomplished it would open the door for an open source word processor as well as enable people to use Okito or Text Edit.

Mark

[Okito]

I have actually been thinking about creating an open source office format project to both create open specifications of the Office file formats and then to create Cocoa reference implementations so they could be used in Composer or any other Cocoa app.

I think that just like HTML is the standard for Web documents, MS Office files are the standard for traditional Office products. These formats should be open standards so others can compete in this field. If Microsoft is not willing to do this, it is in the best interest of all computer users if the development community does it for them.

-Charles
Okito Software

[davecom]

Originally posted by Okito:
I have actually been thinking about creating an open source office format project to both create open specifications of the Office file formats and then to create Cocoa reference implementations so they could be used in Composer or any other Cocoa app.

I think that just like HTML is the standard for Web documents, MS Office files are the standard for traditional Office products. These formats should be open standards so others can compete in this field. If Microsoft is not willing to do this, it is in the best interest of all computer users if the development community does it for them.

-Charles
Okito Software

I would (and I'm sure others too) applaud such a project. I think it would have an even greater chance of success through publicity in the Mac OS X community if it were started by the creator of Okito Composer

[dogwood]

There is no need to develop an open source office format project. It all ready exists. Go to http://www.abisource.com/ and there it is. Failing that search the GNU or other open source projects for a starter base code. Take what they have done, and then build a plug-in or a services menu item. That could be used in TextEdit or other app's to import and export .doc files end of story.

I also think that Okito could be a good leader for such a project.

[Okito]

Originally posted by dogwood:
There is no need to develop an open source office format project. It all ready exists. Go to http://www.abisource.com/ and there it is. Failing that search the GNU or other open source projects for a starter base code. Take what they have done, and then build a plug-in or a services menu item. That could be used in TextEdit or other app's to import and export .doc files end of story.

As far as reference implementations go, there are lots of examples to start with. wv (the library that powers AbiWord) is one, also the word component in OpenOffice is another I have looked at. There is also a spec MS published from 1998 that is both outdated and inaccurate; but it's a start. There are some OLE libraries, which is something else that is needed.

I think that there definitely needs to be some project to document all the Office file formats. That would go a long way to making these file formats truly open. I would also like to see reusable reference implementations that can be used in both open and closed source projects. Not only for my benefit but because a reference implementations must be useful to people working on commercial and non-commercial projects for it to be widely used and many of these projects are closed source. So far all the open source implementations I've seen are either restricted to use only in GPL'd software (wv) or cannot be easily extracted from their host project (OpenOffice.) Does anyone know of a word library that is extractable and has a flexible license?

OpenOffice is under a flexible license, but I so far can't even locate all the pieces of the Word reader/writer in code, let alone figure out how to extract that code as a reusable standalone library. Does anyone else have any ideas about this?

I also think that Okito could be a good leader for such a project.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I will start looking into doing this more seriously since it appears there is interest.

-Charles

[Okito]

I stand corrected. After more investigation it appears that the wv library itself is under LGPL which means it can be used, more or less, by anyone. So maybe it would make a good starting point for a Cocoa library!

-C

[markphip]

Originally posted by Okito:
I stand corrected. After more investigation it appears that the wv library itself is under LGPL which means it can be used, more or less, by anyone. So maybe it would make a good starting point for a Cocoa library!

-C

First off, let me just say that Okito Composer looks very promising, I will be purchasing it soon.

As for the GPL issue, aren't there ways you could get around it? For example, you could use the wv library to create an open source project that converted a Word document to/from some other "open" file format, perhaps XML-based or maybe just RTFD. That "converter" could be licensed in a way that was compatible with the library used. Once the file is converted, however, there should be nothing stopping you from opening and editing the converted file in a closed-source licensed program.

Just a thought. If wv is LGPL it doesn't sound like it would be an issue anyway. I just think it makes sense for the community in general to go the "converter" route. That way people can easily use any word processor without the need for every word processor to do all of this work or carry around the baggage.


Mark

[Okito]

Originally posted by markphip:


First off, let me just say that Okito Composer looks very promising, I will be purchasing it soon.

Thanks!

As for the GPL issue, aren't there ways you could get around it? For example, you could use the wv library to create an open source project that converted a Word document to/from some other "open" file format, perhaps XML-based or maybe just RTFD. That "converter" could be licensed in a way that was compatible with the library used. Once the file is converted, however, there should be nothing stopping you from opening and editing the converted file in a closed-source licensed program.

Yes you can do that. I have considered creating a GPL application that uses a technology Distributed Objects to talk with Composer so I could incorporate GPL tools. The problem is that when it comes to tightly joined GPL and proprietary software, it gets a little muddy when defining exactly what causes the proprietary software to be "infected" by the GPL. Not to mention the negative impact on performance that comes about by using these convoluted approaches. IMHO, the LGPL is much better if one wants his or her software to be reusable by others.

Just a thought. If wv is LGPL it doesn't sound like it would be an issue anyway. I just think it makes sense for the community in general to go the "converter" route. That way people can easily use any word processor without the need for every word processor to do all of this work or carry around the baggage.

I agree completely. After doing some more research, here is what I am thinking about doing:

Okito Composer has been built using a pluggable technology called the Okito Toolbox. Basically, this is a framework for creating productivity applications such as word processors, drawing, spreadsheets, etc. (In fact, if I find enough success with Composer, I would like to eventually offer some of these other tools. Everything in Composer is immediately reusable in any other application based on the Toolbox. But that's my little secret, so don't tell anyone. )

I'm thinking about making open source the "model" layer that includes pluggable file filters. Then we can create file filters to read and write Word and any other formats people would like to support. I have already written my own RTF/RTFD and plain text filters that understand much more formatting than the built-in Cocoa RTF filters. These would be included as part of the open-source release.

With these building blocks, we could snap together converters that can be installed on a user's system and will be used by any Cocoa application. Developers who want to ensure that their application will not lose anything through conversion could also include the filters directly. This would offer excellent reuse, lots of flexibility for developers, and a great experience for end users.

What do you think?

[markphip]

Originally posted by Okito:



I'm thinking about making open source the "model" layer that includes pluggable file filters. Then we can create file filters to read and write Word and any other formats people would like to support. I have already written my own RTF/RTFD and plain text filters that understand much more formatting than the built-in Cocoa RTF filters. These would be included as part of the open-source release.

With these building blocks, we could snap together converters that can be installed on a user's system and will be used by any Cocoa application. Developers who want to ensure that their application will not lose anything through conversion could also include the filters directly. This would offer excellent reuse, lots of flexibility for developers, and a great experience for end users.

What do you think?

It sounds appealing, I wish had some knowledge of the Word file format so I could contribute.

From an open source standpoint, I think you would need to be able to illustrate how this layer is easily usable by other Cocoa applications. Perhaps you could convince another Cocoa developer, like Omnigroup as an example, to at least demonstrate that the filters are easy to reuse. I would imagine they would like to be able to let users view a Word document in OmniWeb if you clicked on it on a web page.

I am not saying that someone like Omnigroup would need to actually contribute to the open source effort, but if someone like them could demonstrate that this framework was easily reusable in other Cocoa apps it might be easier to get developers on board with the project.

It would be helpful if some of the early contributors to this thread would chime in on their opinions on whether or not they think this would be "open" enough to warrant their involvement.

Thanks

Mark

[davecom]

Originally posted by markphip:


It sounds appealing, I wish had some knowledge of the Word file format so I could contribute.

From an open source standpoint, I think you would need to be able to illustrate how this layer is easily usable by other Cocoa applications. Perhaps you could convince another Cocoa developer, like Omnigroup as an example, to at least demonstrate that the filters are easy to reuse. I would imagine they would like to be able to let users view a Word document in OmniWeb if you clicked on it on a web page.

I am not saying that someone like Omnigroup would need to actually contribute to the open source effort, but if someone like them could demonstrate that this framework was easily reusable in other Cocoa apps it might be easier to get developers on board with the project.

It would be helpful if some of the early contributors to this thread would chime in on their opinions on whether or not they think this would be "open" enough to warrant their involvement.

Thanks

Mark

I like the way this is going. But action speaks greater than words, so lets get a project started at sourceforge or Savannah.

[kupan787]

Just for the heck of it, I started working on something. Note it is not done, nor is it 100% what the topic poster wanted.

But I have an app built (and if you email bmackin@mac.com I can send it to you) which can read rtf, rtfd, txt, and doc (word) files. It can save as rtfd (which apple describes as rtf with graphics I think). I need to find a way to get it to allow saving as .doc files, and then we have a winner, but this is a start.

I need to clean up the code a bit, and then I can release that.

[BHD]

Originally posted by Okito:

I'm thinking about making open source the "model" layer that includes pluggable file filters. Then we can create file filters to read and write Word and any other formats people would like to support. I have already written my own RTF/RTFD and plain text filters that understand much more formatting than the built-in Cocoa RTF filters. These would be included as part of the open-source release.

With these building blocks, we could snap together converters that can be installed on a user's system and will be used by any Cocoa application. Developers who want to ensure that their application will not lose anything through conversion could also include the filters directly. This would offer excellent reuse, lots of flexibility for developers, and a great experience for end users.

What do you think? [/B]

I really like this idea, but if you're thinking future, shouldn't you be thinking xml? There's Openoffice of course, the fact that OSX has built-in xml parsing, and that other Cocoa developers like Omni are using xml file formats. I hate to see people waste effort on .doc support.